HE INCREASES AND SHE DECREASES [Mary, Mother of God]

The Rock ^ | May 1994 | Mark Shea

[Salvation]

HE INCREASES AND SHE DECREASES

By MARK P. SHEA

 

Some friends are always good for a cheery disagreement--like my pal Bill. Here he is, a guy who modestly describes himself as "The Last Bastion of the Reformation," a guy who sings "A Mighty Fortress is Our God" in the shower, a guy who keeps ribbing me about being Catholic when he knows that I can scarcely resist the challenge to respond. Consider the letter I got the other day, written with Bill's usual joie de vivre, in which he urged me to get a recent book devoted to "critiquing" Marian devotion from an Evangelical perspective.

As a former Evangelical, I know anti-Marian arguments. But, having been a Catholic for nearly six years, I've been surprised to discover how much larger Mary looms in many Protestant minds than in Catholic ones. Maybe I'm languishing in a papally-induced spiritual blindness, but Jesus seems as big to me as ever. Only Mary has changed sizes since I "poped." She got a lot smaller and less threatening.

Since I became a Catholic she often, after directing me to her Son, has seemed to slip out of the room for long stretches, leaving me to talk with him while she busies herself with quietly praying for me or doing some other motherly task. She has been a most unobtrusive presence--endlessly loving and interceding, but not nearly as noisy about it as my Protestant upbringing would have led me to believe.

Yet how can this be? Books have "proven" that Catholics are obsessively fixated on our Lady to the exclusion of faith in Christ. They have shown that all we think about is the way in which Mary can save us from sin. They have demonstrated that I spend day and night obsequiously seeking to have her declared a fourth member of the Trinity.

Of course, there are benighted souls in my communion (Mother Teresa, say) whose summary of Marian devotion is: Love Jesus as Mary loves Jesus, love Mary as Jesus loves Mary. Such people seem to think that Mary is not a goddess but that she has a significant place in the drama of redemption. They regard her as remarkable in that her choice to love and obey the as-yet-unseen and unincarnate Messiah was the very key to the Incarnation.

They find a subtle difference between such faith (unbuttressed and unrehearsed) and the wobbly performance of Peter and Thomas. They attach some quirky meaning to the fact she was the first disciple to say "yes" to the incarnate God and that it was this "yes" and the love it expressed which was the basis of the first and deepest love relationship the Son of God ever experienced as man.

Such cultists seem to have this notion that her role in the life of the Church might extend beyond the physical fact of providing a uterine environment and three square meals a day to the Second Person of the Trinity--that she is something more than a disposable first stage in the Incarnation.

For some reason they hold the belief that Jesus, who obeyed the law perfectly, obeyed the command to love his mother in a way unique in human history and that imitating him might involve us in that love relationship too. They are bewitched with the fact the dying Jesus commanded the disciple he loved (that is, you and me) to have Mary as mother and that she was commanded to have the beloved disciple (that is, you and me) as her son.

These people suspect that as the risen Christ remains human forever, so he remains his mother's son forever. If she loves him, she just might love those who are in him as her own and pray they will love her son with all their heart, soul, mind, and strength. Likewise, if Jesus loves her in a unique way and we are to be like him . . . well, you can work that one out.

 

 

[1000 silverlings]

Stuff like this is new age occultism. These beings are channeled by Shirley McClain and people like her. If anything, these occultists open themselves to demonic spirits who make the claim that they are gods. This stuff has nothing to do with Christian churches.

[papertyger]

Oh, that’s right . . . you were NOT referring to 1436 Fascinating . . .

Uhm, it's pretty clear the referring post was 1425...don't you know how posting works, or does that one just stand out?

[MarkBsnr]

I’m sending you mail.

We can take this discussion off line.

[papertyger]

the RC magicsterical politicians have been making stuff up for MANY centuries.

It's not "making stuff up" when you are authorized by Jesus Christ, Himself.

[MarkBsnr]

Orthodoxy, yes.

If you do not have the keepers of Orthodoxy keeping vigilance, then stuff like this is only a matter of degree since it departs from orthodoxy in the first place.

Do you see substantive difference between this stuff, and, for instance, the beliefs of the Albigenses? I see differences in the specifics, but not in the methodology of generating the doctrines.

[reagandemocrat]

Sorry, no, I wasn’t referring to post 1436 (but if you’d like me to, I will)

I was referring to your post to me.

[1000 silverlings]

No one needs to investigate rabbit holes. The bible has all the truth needed to keep the train on track

[papertyger]

No one needs to investigate rabbit holes. The bible has all the truth needed to keep the train on track

Then why all the divergent lines? If the Bible says to go to the Church to settle certain disputes, but you pick the church according to your preferences, how does that work?

[OpusatFR]

” This stuff has nothing to do with Christian churches.”

“The religious framework of the UFO phenomenon has never been far away. Reverend Barry H. Downing, a pastor of the Northminster Presbyterian Church in Endwell, New York, wrote “The Bible and Flying Saucers” in 1968, arguing that the burning bush of Exodus was a UFO.”

http://www.conspiracy-times.com/content/view/98/37/

IOW, the Presbyterians aren’t Christian? I have to check Burning Bush/Flying Saucer/ET in Genesis.

“This theme has been expanded by Nelson S. Pacheco and Tommy R. Blann in “Unmasking the Enemy. Visions around the world and global deception in the end times.”

They aren’t Clinical Psychiatrists.

[MarkBsnr]

These guys http://www.bibleufo.com/index.htm need to be measured up for a closer fitting tinfoil hat.

[OpusatFR]

” Through exhaustive biblical research, this work presents a new paradigm about exactly what the Bible teaches, and reveals incredible truths buried under centuries of alteration of the very foundations of the true church Jesus inspired.”

Sounds like any Protestant group doesn’t it? ( ;

[1000 silverlings]

Ridiculous. I never took any UFO courses at seminary and as far as I know, except maybe at flakey liberal schools, there still aren’t.

[1000 silverlings]

Well the Christians are probably already in a church before they settle disputes biblically. Are there really a lot of “divergent lines?”

[1000 silverlings]

here you go, blessed virgin mary sightings are UFOs.

http://www.mt.net/~watcher/october13maryfatima.html

[OpusatFR]

“Ridiculous. I never took any UFO courses at seminary and as far as I know, except maybe at flakey liberal schools, there still aren’t.”

So you aren’t Presbyterian? I thought from all that has been said, all Presbyterians are the same but the divergent groups are simply separate in goverance.

Reverend Barry H. Downing, a pastor of the Northminster Presbyterian Church in Endwell, New York, wrote “The Bible and Flying Saucers” in 1968, arguing that the burning bush of Exodus was a UFO.”

He’s an ordained Presbyterian minister, reverend or whatever.

So I can surmise that Presbyterians do have different sects that differ in their interpretation of “Sola Scriptura” other than the aforementioned governance issues?

[papertyger]

And what do you do about disputes between Christians of different churches?

[1000 silverlings]

So? He can write anything he wants to, that is his misguided idea. He would have to build a case using other scripture to validate it. Writing something doesn’t make it dogma or received text. I never even heard of his theory and doubt many others have either unless they too are UFO believers and not well grounded in the scriptures. Some people want to believe all sorts of things. The vatican wrote something on incubi and succubi, so you go around teaching it? Is it official dogma?

[1000 silverlings]

The few times I have learned of them, the two parties pick a mediator, usually one of their pastors, and meet about it. I’ve never had a dispute, so don’t know from my own experience.

[papertyger]

The few times I have learned of them, the two parties pick a mediator, usually one of their pastors, and meet about it.

I guess that's as good a plan as any if you can't follow what the Bible actually says to do...

[Titanites]

He’s an ordained Presbyterian minister, reverend or whatever.

Can they use reverend (let alone "very reverend") since it would take away from God?