The Worship of Mary? (An Observation)

[Ultra Sonic 007]

Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.

There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.

Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).

Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.

Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.

I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.

But do I WORSHIP them?

No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.

I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.

There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?

I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.

Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.

In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.

At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.

[roamer_1]

Applause. I take this as your tribute to me for having explained just what it was that you posted, rather than what I suppose you meant.

ROTFLMAO!!! No, I was trying to politely show you the definition and use of the word, wherein only one use was as you describe. Perhaps a quick look at the thesaurus:

Synonym Collection v1.1

Main Entry: trappings

[...]

Synonyms: apparel, caparison, equipment, finery, gear, paraphernalia, regalia, things, trimmings

Thesaurus.com Source

It isn't that what you are saying is wrong, for it is one use of the word... But it can also simply mean "the stuff of". Also see here:

trappings

1. articles of equipment or dress, esp. of an ornamental character.

2. conventional adornment; characteristic signs: trappings of democracy.

3. Sometimes, trapping. an ornamental covering for a horse; caparison.

Dictionary.com Source

Any language lessons, beyond the first hour, is at full tuition rate.

Good! Shall I bill you or would you like to pay cash?

[Mad Dawg]

Dood! Yer among the “Ten Thousand!”

Kewel!

Do I get a merit badge or, like, an oak leaf cluster or somesuch?

All in all, not the worst thread.

[Judith Anne]

It sure got to the point, quickly.

:D

[papertyger]

Kewel! Do I get a merit badge or, like, an oak leaf cluster or somesuch? All in all, not the worst thread.

I don't mind you breakin' all epic-like, but let's pass on the Spartans "uniform"... 'kay?

[papertyger]

It sure got to the point, quickly.

And I was just about to bust out my new moves... :o(

[Mad Dawg]

It sure got to the point, quickly.

FACT!

LOL!

[Mad Dawg]

Molon Labe!

Leonidas RULES! I don't know the movie, but I know the story.

"Good. We'll fight in the shade."

A spy reported to the Persians that the Spartans were combing their hair. He asked his Greek captives about it. They said, "Spartans like to look good when they die."

It's all in Herodotus,

[Alamo-Girl]

Thanks for the ping, dear brother in Christ!

[papertyger]

I don't know the movie, but I know the story.

I have to admit to quite a thrill when the guy playing Leonidas bellows "COME AND GET THEM!"

[Judith Anne]

Save them. I’ll look for them. :D

[Quix]

[Forest Keeper]

FK: I do not say Mary is "dead" as in "in hell". I'm saying she is physically dead (departed) and presumably in Heaven.

She's not dead.

Dogmatic and infallible fact going all the way back to the early times, 1950. It's interesting that the Bible gives two clear examples of assumption, but somehow completely neglects what to you must be far and away the most important one. Perhaps this is another one of those "since everyone knew it there was no need to say it" deals? That's also fascinating given what the content of the Bible actually IS. NOBODY knew about Jesus so He is all over the NT, however, EVERYONE knew about Mary so there was no need to include Mariology in the scriptures. You haven't made that argument to me here yet, but I have seen it from other Catholics. It's priceless. :)

FK: But in any event, why would my salvation be dependent on Mary or what became of her?

I have no idea.

OK, then I will dismiss that Catholic claim as being baseless.

FK: If the fact was that Mary was a sinner, as the Bible says...

Doesn't.

Then can you show me the exception for Mary in the Bible? Along with Rom. 3:23 (I can show you the exceptions for Christ if you want to go there) we have:

1 John 1:9-10 : 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.

Does Mary make God out to be a liar and did His word have no place in her life?

[fortheDeclaration]

GOD PRODUCED THE NEW TESTAMENT VIA HUMAN SCRIBES ~400 years before the RC org reared its outrageously political power-mongering bureaucratic committee plagued head.

Amen.

[Quix]

Thanks for your kind affirmation of UNrubberized Biblical and historical truth.

[fortheDeclaration]

11. NOTHING BUT THE BLOOD AND THE WORD OF GOD THROUGH CHRIST AND HIS SPIRIT WILL AVAIL ANYTHING.

Amen.

[fortheDeclaration]

Amen to your post.

[fortheDeclaration]

All liberalism is the same lie against the truth. Either God rules or men rule.

Amen.

Absolute truth vs relative truth.

[fortheDeclaration]

SCRIPTURE LAYS THE GROUNDWORK OLD AND NEW TESTAMENTS. CHRIST PUT THE CAPSTONE ON IT WITH REPEATED: “IT IS WRITTEN . . . “

Amen.

[fortheDeclaration]

[Prottys use an authentic instead of a rubber dictionary. And in our authentic dictionary, we construe words to have reliable meanings. Our understanding of what we read flows accordingly.]

Rings pretty hollow coming from one who parades 14 flawed translations instead of one definition in greek.

[ And what does a Bible translation have to do with understanding an English dictionary? And what Greek word are you referring to that has one definition? ]

It's not my job to keep you up to speed with this thread, particularly when you choose to comment on something you admit you don't know about, I was always told "when your opponent is doing something stupid: let him." So there you are!

Since you pinged me and it is your responsiblity to clarify what the point is you are trying to make-if you have one, which I seriously doubt.

[fortheDeclaration]

[Oh, it is not a word game, but it is blasphemy, making Mary equal to Christ.]

Saying that Jesus Christ and His Mother were fully human is blasphemy? I'm fully human, as are you. Is that blasphemy?

Not according to the definition put forth that being 'fully human' means being sinless.

Or do you think it is blasphemy to say that our Lord was fully human?

No, it is blasphemy to say that being 'fully human' means being a 'perfect human' which Christ was, and that Mary was as 'fully human' as Christ was, which is what the RCC teaches.

Amazing how you attempt to twist the issue and ignore what is being said about Mary.

The 'fully human' definition as being sinless is from one of your fellow RCC posters, it is not mine.