Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.
There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.
Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).
Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.
Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.
I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.
But do I WORSHIP them?
No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.
I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.
There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.
Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.
In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.
At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.
Why not address the question?
Concerning the other response, when anyone only counts the Bible for a quarter or less of their authority for what they believe and practice, it doesn't matter at all what Scripture we quote. They come back implying things like (1) the writer didn't say everything he meant, or (2) the writer's description of what he was doing or where he was, or who his ministry was to is not said in the text to be exhaustive.
What they intend to teach us is that the Scriptures are full of holes, and lines missing that must be filled in. And of course, ABSOLUTELY the ONLY people qualified to plug imaginary holes or fill in imaginary gaps between lines, or complete the author's thoughts where he didn't say all he should have said are the theologians, lawyers and apologists of their particular church. Nobody else knows how to read.
I havn't done any work on the LXX. The little work I have done on the NT leads me to believe that there are significant variations in texts, the most notorious being the endings of Mark and the "Woman Taken in Adultery", which at least one major text of John does not have. (from memory, I'm supposed to be doing something else now.)
I don't know how we might quantify (a quarter or less of their authority for what they believe) how much authority is given this or that element.
But when the Bible is viewed as the Principle tradition but still one which arose and passed down by tradition, one's approach is going to be very different from that chosen by those who view it as something standing outside tradition.
For example, textual variations and questions are going to tend to require some authoritative answer, and the problem of by what standard the text is to be assessed is huge, I would think, if the text is the highest standard.
From our POV, looking to the Bible as the only standard leads to a kind of scribal tradition with several different strands, from the Messianic Jews, to various kinds of dispensationalism, to Calvinist, to Arminian, to Jehovah's Witnesses to the various sects of the Baptist persuasion, and so on.
And as I said earlier, while in these threads the divisions are made light of, they certainly seem to involve an inefficient use of real estate and chattels since the interpretive divisions seem often to lead to denominational division.
Similar things can be said about our approach, in which schools of interpretation are not limited to Scriptural texts but also to theological schools and interpretations of former acts of councils and of Popes. It has been suggested that, aside from the massive corruption of much of the Catholic Church in Luther's time, he was also a victim of a kind of extreme Ockhamism which led to a serious misrepresentation of the Gospel.
We all have our problems. We each think the other's set of problems is worse than ours.
The charge has been made and more than once. It is possilbe that you may have missed it. "Frequently" is a judgment word.
Nice try on changing the subject. No sale.
Man, I have to be doing something else. Bummer.
The way I read Rev. 17:8, “written” is in the perfect tense which usaually means an action completed in the past. If that’s the case, the damned were left out of the book of life from the foundation of the world and “apo” is the dilineating time or separating time.
Of course, you can tell me I’m all wet and to go to he—, oh wait, I’ve been told that so many times it is probably trite now.
That is exactly right. And faith is a gift from God. Understanding Christ on the cross is a gift from God. New ears and new eyes are gifts from God. A new heart is a gift from God. A renewed mind is a gift from God.
Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." -- Ephesians 2:1-10"And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
It's so important Paul repeats the verse within a few lines -- "by grace are ye saved." Grace, the gift from God to His family.
Does God quicken all dead men?
No, or else all men would be saved. "Ye must be born again."
None of us remains sinless and all men sin every day of their lives.
By the indwelling Holy Spirit, we sin less and less as we are sanctified, by His will.
Mercifully, Christ's atonement for our sins is credited to our account. We are declared righteous before God not through our own efforts or obedience or righteousness, but through Christ's justification of us; through His work, His obedience; His righteousness.
This is pretty basic Christianity 101.
I was asked by one of the Catholic posters why I do not quote scripture. My feelings on this is that I am not casting pearls before swine (which of course IS scriptural) and since some twist scripture to suit their own agenda or beliefs, I won’t give them the chance. God’s Word is precious. Keep up the good work.
Actually it's RCs that own bibles but never read them. It's RCs that pray from a script but never actually talk to God. It's RC's that deny the gospel and invent D&D theology to make that boring ole bible and that boring ole story more interesting. It's definitely RCs that deny the power of the Gospel.
***Did you get all that perpetual “Vicar of Christ” stuff all from the end of John chapter 21?***
Not expressly. Newadvent.com is helpful:
Peter becomes head of the apostles
In especially solemn fashion Christ accentuated Peter’s precedence among the Apostles, when, after Peter had recognized Him as the Messias, He promised that he would be head of His flock. Jesus was then dwelling with His Apostles in the vicinity of Caesarea Philippi, engaged on His work of salvation. As Christ’s coming agreed so little in power and glory with the expectations of the Messias, many different views concerning Him were current. While journeying along with His Apostles, Jesus asks them: “Whom do men say that the Son of man is?” The Apostles answered: “Some John the Baptist, and other some Elias, and others Jeremias, or one of the prophets”. Jesus said to them: “But whom do you say that I am?” Simon said: “Thou art Christ, the Son of the living God”. And Jesus answering said to him: “Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jona: because flesh and blood hath not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in heaven. And I say to thee: That thou art Peter [Kipha, a rock], and upon this rock [Kipha] I will build my church [ekklesian], and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven”. Then he commanded his disciples, that they should tell no one that he was Jesus the Christ (Matthew 16:13-20; Mark 8:27-30; Luke 9:18-21).
By the word “rock” the Saviour cannot have meant Himself, but only Peter, as is so much more apparent in Aramaic in which the same word (Kipha) is used for “Peter” and “rock”. His statement then admits of but one explanation, namely, that He wishes to make Peter the head of the whole community of those who believed in Him as the true Messias; that through this foundation (Peter) the Kingdom of Christ would be unconquerable; that the spiritual guidance of the faithful was placed in the hands of Peter, as the special representative of Christ. This meaning becomes so much the clearer when we remember that the words “bind” and “loose” are not metaphorical, but Jewish juridical terms. It is also clear that the position of Peter among the other Apostles and in the Christian community was the basis for the Kingdom of God on earth, that is, the Church of Christ. Peter was personally installed as Head of the Apostles by Christ Himself. This foundation created for the Church by its Founder could not disappear with the person of Peter, but was intended to continue and did continue (as actual history shows) in the primacy of the Roman Church and its bishops.
Entirely inconsistent and in itself untenable is the position of Protestants who (like Schnitzer in recent times) assert that the primacy of the Roman bishops cannot be deduced from the precedence which Peter held among the Apostles. Just as the essential activity of the Twelve Apostles in building up and extending the Church did not entirely disappear with their deaths, so surely did the Apostolic Primacy of Peter not completely vanish. As intended by Christ, it must have continued its existence and development in a form appropriate to the ecclesiastical organism, just as the office of the Apostles continued in an appropriate form.
Objections have been raised against the genuineness of the wording of the passage, but the unanimous testimony of the manuscripts, the parallel passages in the other Gospels, and the fixed belief of pre-Constantine literature furnish the surest proofs of the genuineness and untampered state of the text of Matthew (cf. “Stimmen aus MariaLaach”, I, 1896,129 sqq.; “Theologie und Glaube”, II, 1910, 842 sqq.).
***Peter knew NOTHING of a perpetual New Testament Church or of a Church Age. He preached ONLY to the Nation of Israel, and the Elders of Israel.***
Realy? New Advent is once again helpful.
St. Peter’s First Epistle was written undoubtedly from Rome, since the salutation at the end reads: “The church that is in Babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you: and so doth my son Mark” (5:13). Babylon must here be identified with the Roman capital; since Babylon on the Euphrates, which lay in ruins, or New Babylon (Seleucia) on the Tigris, or the Egyptian Babylon near Memphis, or Jerusalem cannot be meant, the reference must be to Rome, the only city which is called Babylon elsewhere in ancient Christian literature (Revelation 17:5; 18:10; “Oracula Sibyl.”, V, verses 143 and 159, ed. Geffcken, Leipzig, 1902, 111).
From Bishop Papias of Hierapolis and Clement of Alexandria, who both appeal to the testimony of the old presbyters (i.e., the disciples of the Apostles), we learn that Mark wrote his Gospel in Rome at the request of the Roman Christians, who desired a written memorial of the doctrine preached to them by St. Peter and his disciples (Eusebius, “Hist. Eccl.”, II, xv; III, xl; VI, xiv); this is confirmed by Irenaeus (Adv. haer., III, i). In connection with this information concerning the Gospel of St. Mark, Eusebius, relying perhaps on an earlier source, says that Peter described Rome figuratively as Babylon in his First Epistle.
Another testimony concerning the martyrdom of Peter and Paul is supplied by Clement of Rome in his Epistle to the Corinthians (written about A.D. 95-97), wherein he says (v): “Through zeal and cunning the greatest and most righteous supports [of the Church] have suffered persecution and been warred to death. Let us place before our eyes the good Apostles — St. Peter, who in consequence of unjust zeal, suffered not one or two, but numerous miseries, and, having thus given testimony (martyresas), has entered the merited place of glory”. He then mentions Paul and a number of elect, who were assembled with the others and suffered martyrdom “among us” (en hemin, i.e., among the Romans, the meaning that the expression also bears in chap. iv). He is speaking undoubtedly, as the whole passage proves, of the Neronian persecution, and thus refers the martyrdom of Peter and Paul to that epoch.
In his letter written at the beginning of the second century (before 117), while being brought to Rome for martyrdom, the venerable Bishop Ignatius of Antioch endeavours by every means to restrain the Roman Christians from striving for his pardon, remarking: “I issue you no commands, like Peter and Paul: they were Apostles, while I am but a captive” (Ad. Romans 4). The meaning of this remark must be that the two Apostles laboured personally in Rome, and with Apostolic authority preached the Gospel there.
Bishop Dionysius of Corinth, in his letter to the Roman Church in the time of Pope Soter (165-74), says: “You have therefore by your urgent exhortation bound close together the sowing of Peter and Paul at Rome and Corinth. For both planted the seed of the Gospel also in Corinth, and together instructed us, just as they likewise taught in the same place in Italy and at the same time suffered martyrdom” (in Eusebius, “Hist. Eccl.”, II, xxviii).
Irenaeus of Lyons, a native of Asia Minor and a disciple of Polycarp of Smyrna (a disciple of St. John), passed a considerable time in Rome shortly after the middle of the second century, and then proceeded to Lyons, where he became bishop in 177; he described the Roman Church as the most prominent and chief preserver of the Apostolic tradition, as “the greatest and most ancient church, known by all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious Apostles, Peter and Paul” (Adv. haer., III, iii; cf. III, i). He thus makes use of the universally known and recognized fact of the Apostolic activity of Peter and Paul in Rome, to find therein a proof from tradition against the heretics.
In his “Hypotyposes” (Eusebius, “Hist. Eccl.”, IV, xiv), Clement of Alexandria, teacher in the catechetical school of that city from about 190, says on the strength of the tradition of the presbyters: “After Peter had announced the Word of God in Rome and preached the Gospel in the spirit of God, the multitude of hearers requested Mark, who had long accompanied Peter on all his journeys, to write down what the Apostles had preached to them” (see above).
***If Peter was the “Vicar of Christ,” why didn’t he know from Christ directly that Paul was a chosen vessel of God, and, as you say, “had to have Peter convinced.”***
Unknown. It doesn’t detract from anything whether he did or not.
***Paul deferred to Peter??? Can’t see it in the light of Galatians chapters 1 and 2. ***
Gal 1:
18
Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to confer with Cephas and remained with him for fifteen days.
19
But I did not see any other of the apostles, only James the brother of the Lord.
Paul went to the leader of the Christians to offer his bona fides and gain acceptance.
***There is nothing at all visible on earth since 70 AD that could remotely be said to be built upon Peter***
We are not remotely saying it. We are directly saying it.
All of which does nothing to answer my original charge of hypocritical hermaneutics, but it does nicely authenticate my assertion of the neverending stream of contrived accusations from "pretend" Christians.
***I may be a sap and a flake but what a horrible thought. I don’t think I’d want any children if I believed that they would possibly wicked from birth with no chance that God could intervene in their lives and that they could be reborn.***
1 Tim 2:
3
This is good and pleasing to God our savior,
4
who wills everyone to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth.
God wills every man under Heaven to be saved.
Unbelievable.
This same topic is being discussed in my Sunday School class, and came up last night also. Your comment here is almost verbatim what a Calvinist believer said, IMO, it is rather a misrepresentation of those that don't believe Calvin.
How would you read Rom. 8:29 and Titus 2:11.
My Sunday School Teacher posted this list on the board. I'd be interested in your thoughts:
The Order of Salvation
1. calling
2. REgeneration
3. Faith, repentance
4. Justification
5. Adoption
6. Sanctification
7. Persverance
8. Glorification
Becky
***Men are saved by God’s grace alone through faith alone in Jesus Christ alone.
“Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.” — Titus 3:5-7
***
Applause. I think that you might be getting it, at least part of it anyway.
Titus 1:
1
1 Paul, a slave of God and apostle of Jesus Christ for the sake of the faith of God’s chosen ones and the recognition of religious truth,
2
in the hope of eternal life that God, who does not lie, promised before time began,
3
who indeed at the proper time revealed his word in the proclamation with which I was entrusted by the command of God our savior,
4
to Titus, my true child in our common faith: grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our savior.
John 4:
40
When the Samaritans came to him, they invited him to stay with them; and he stayed there two days.
41
Many more began to believe in him because of his word,
42
and they said to the woman, “We no longer believe because of your word; for we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this is truly the savior of the world.”
Of the world, Dr. E., and not just a self identified clique.
All men will be Judged by their deeds and intents:
3
3 “Blessed are the poor in spirit, 4 for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
4
5 Blessed are they who mourn, for they will be comforted.
5
6 Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the land.
6
Blessed are they who hunger and thirst for righteousness, 7 for they will be satisfied.
7
Blessed are the merciful, for they will be shown mercy.
8
8 Blessed are the clean of heart, for they will see God.
9
Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called children of God.
10
Blessed are they who are persecuted for the sake of righteousness, 9 for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
11
Blessed are you when they insult you and persecute you and utter every kind of evil against you (falsely) because of me.
12
10 Rejoice and be glad, for your reward will be great in heaven. Thus they persecuted the prophets who were before you.
And what happens if you do evil deeds or you don’t do good deeds?
31
14 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit upon his glorious throne,
32
and all the nations 15 will be assembled before him. And he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
33
He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34
Then the king will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
35
For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me,
36
naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.’
37
Then the righteous 16 will answer him and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink?
38
When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you?
39
When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?’
40
And the king will say to them in reply, ‘Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.’
41
17 Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
42
For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,
43
a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.’
44
18 Then they will answer and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?’
45
He will answer them, ‘Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.’
46
And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
Please, Dr. E., read the words of Jesus which are as mountains over the words of men.
***“I was told by a poster here numerous times that I am going to hell.”
That makes two of us. I have been told many times to go to hell.***
That is not what I was told. I was told that I AM going to hell and that this poster was able to Judge the state and the destination of my soul.
***Those who have not trusted Christ for their salvation, i.e. their names were not written in the Lamb’s Book of Life before the foundation of eh world. God only knows!***
Yes, only God knows. Foreknowledge is not predestination.
And since I know the accusations were false and were made in reaction to my personal testimony about Jesus Christ my Lord, I count them all joy!
God’s justice is perfect; He turns false accusations into showers of blessing.
In God will I praise [his] word: in the LORD will I praise [his] word. In God have I put my trust: I will not be afraid what man can do unto me. - Psalms 56:10-11
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.