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Prophecy Pundits are at it Again
American Vision ^ | February 23, 2009 | Gary DeMar

Posted on 02/24/2009 10:10:12 AM PST by topcat54

Calvary Chapel of Chino California held “ The Southern California Prophecy Conference” last week (Feb. 20–22, 2009). I wonder if those who came to hear speakers like Tim LaHaye, Mark Hitchcock, Paul McGuire, David Hocking, David Reagan, and Ed Hindson were aware that Chuck Smith, the founder of the Calvary Chapel network of churches, made some very definite predictions about when the “rapture” was going to take place.

While cleaning up my office, I came across a cassette tape of a sermon Chuck Smith preached on December 31, 1979. He told his very accepting audience on that day that the rapture would take place in 1981. The former Soviet Republic going into Afghanistan in August of 1978 was the prelude to what Smith considered to be a full-force invasion of the Middle East. It would not be long before “Russia” would invade Israel, Smith told his audience. All of this was said to have been “predicted” by Ezekiel 2600 years ago.

Smith went on to claim in his end-of-the-year message of 30 years ago that because of ozone depletion Revelation 16:8 would be fulfilled during the soon-coming Great Tribulation: “And the fourth angel poured out his bowl upon the sun; and it was given to it to scorch men with fire.” According to Smith, Halley’s Comet would pass near the earth in 1986 and would wreck atmospheric havoc for those left behind as debris from its million-mile tail pummeled the earth. Halley’s Comet did appear in 1986 with no damage done to our planet. (A similar prelude to the end had been predicted based on the so-called Jupiter Effect.[1]) ...

(Excerpt) Read more at americanvision.org ...


TOPICS: Theology
KEYWORDS: dispensationalism; eschatology; preterism; prophecy; tribulation
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To: raynearhood

Just because some Calvinists can’t seem to wrap their minds around Romans 11

is no sign that God has a problem with HIS PLAN to incorporate the blood children of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob into THEIR TRUE MESSIAH’S REDEMPTION FOR THEM.

What utter clueless balderdash such a Replacementarian perspective persistently spouts.


251 posted on 03/04/2009 8:33:12 AM PST by Quix (POL Ldrs quotes fm1900 2 presnt: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: Lee N. Field

Not by several galactic clusters worth.

LOL.


252 posted on 03/04/2009 8:33:43 AM PST by Quix (POL Ldrs quotes fm1900 2 presnt: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: raynearhood; Cvengr; Iscool; Lee N. Field; safisoft; Star Traveler
The descedents of the circumcision of the flesh are waiting for the fulfillment of a promise that has already been fulfilled and they will be judged according to the Law. Dispensationalists are waiting on the same thing to happen for the Jews. God will not fulfill His promise to Israel in the future because He already has. That work is completed through the work of Christ.

The State of Israel and the Kingdom to Come

Towards a Reformed Israelology

253 posted on 03/04/2009 9:47:39 AM PST by topcat54
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To: Quix
I know of no one in my camp asserting that Christ is unnecessary.

So you say...

Just because some Calvinists can’t seem to wrap their minds around Romans 11 is no sign that God has a problem with HIS PLAN to incorporate the blood children of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob into THEIR TRUE MESSIAH’S REDEMPTION FOR THEM.

And yet you confirm it. The redemptive work of Christ, to the dispensationalist, is moot to the Jew because God has a future plan to redeem the bloodline of Abraham.

I have no problem with wrapping my mind around Romans 11. God's plan to incorporate the Jews into their true Messiah's redemption for them is the same as His plan to incorporate the Gentiles into their true Messiah's redemption for them.
Romans 11:19-29
You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in." Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.

And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?

For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery--so that you will not be wise in your own estimation--that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written,
"THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION,
HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB."
"THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM,
WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS."

From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God's choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
Israel became on equal footing with the Gentile as a result of the redemptive work of Christ. If they continue in unbelief they remain broken off. If they come to belief, they are grafted in. God promised to save His people. He kept that promise with the New Covenant.
"THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION,
HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB."
"THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM,
WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS."
The Deliverer did come, some 2000 years ago, and reigns NOW. The redemptive work of Christ is needed by all NOW to be saved. There are no second chances outside God's redemptive plan before the Second Coming. There is no second chance during a millennial rule after Christ's return. At the coming of the thief it's too late, the ungrafted will be destroyed.

Trying to inject some sort of future, other kind of salvation for the bloodline of Abraham is the core theological problem of dispensational theology.
254 posted on 03/04/2009 11:16:35 AM PST by raynearhood ("I consider looseness with words no less of a defect than looseness of the bowels" -John Calvin)
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To: raynearhood

EVIDENTLY, IT APPEARS THAT . . .

some are still

QUITE SMUGLY INTENT

on TELLING GOD

HOW AND WHEN HE

MUST

do it according to THEIR prescription.

Fascinating.


255 posted on 03/04/2009 11:24:29 AM PST by Quix (POL Ldrs quotes fm1900 2 presnt: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: Quix

EXACTLY!!!!

NAYSAYING Dispensationalists

NEED to

GIVE IT A REST.


256 posted on 03/04/2009 11:38:52 AM PST by raynearhood ("I consider looseness with words no less of a defect than looseness of the bowels" -John Calvin)
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To: raynearhood

Some folks with shattered mirrors are evidently finding replacements very difficult to find! LOL.

Dispensationalists merely take Scripture at face value.

Trusting that God meant what He said and said what He meant

. . . to Abraham.


257 posted on 03/04/2009 11:45:02 AM PST by Quix (POL Ldrs quotes fm1900 2 presnt: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: raynearhood
11and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them, 12and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised.

You found a good verse, but you don't know what to do with it...

Rom 4:3 For what saith the Scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Rom 4:9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.

Who's the 'we'??? The WE is Christians...Gentile, Jew, and anything else in between...'For there is no difference', in Christ...And that's the difference, that there IS NO difference, in Christ...Outside of Christ, there's a HUGE difference...

Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Rom 4:3 For what saith the Scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Rom 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

Whoa, What happened here??? Now there's an odd thing, isn't it...Over there in James, Abraham is NOW justified by works...

Now here in the book of Hebrews, someone is speaking obviously to believers in Jesus Christ...

Heb 6:11 And we desire that every one of you do show the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:
Heb 6:12 That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

So what's going on here??? Who are the 'THEM'??? Why are these Hebrews being spoken to as believers but are instructed to follow 'them' who will inherit the promises???

The 'THEM' is us...Christians...At the end of the New Testament Jesus is again speaking to the Hebrews...

Most people disregard the little words in scripture...I believe the are the main Characters in the Scriptures...Here's an example...

Gal 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Most if not all translations change that word 'by' to through...But they are not the same...We can know that because they are spelled differently...

Some people can get to God through Jesus Christ...(in Christ, Christ in you)...Others can get to God but not necessarily through Jesus Christ but 'by' the authority of Jesus Christ...But then you have to be a dispensationalist to get this...

dispensational theology makes an argument for the negation of the redemptive work of Christ relative to the nation state of Israel. According to dispensation theology, God is going to fulfill His promise to Israel during the millennial rule of Christ. No need for faith in the Cross, God will redeem the nation state.

I'd say you don't know dispensational theology...

Two things here...Jews will be saved during the Tribulation by faith in Jesus Christ AND good works...They must endure to the end (of the Tribulation, or their untimely death for their belief)...This takes place while the church, the body of Christ is in Heaven attending her wedding and the Marriage Supper of the Lamb...

258 posted on 03/04/2009 12:28:38 PM PST by Iscool (I don't understand all that I know...)
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To: raynearhood
EXACTLY!!!!

NAYSAYING Dispensationalists

NEED to

GIVE IT A REST.

Touche!


259 posted on 03/04/2009 12:37:49 PM PST by Lee N. Field (Dispensational exegesis not supported by an a-, post- or historic pre-mil scholar will be ignored.)
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To: Iscool; raynearhood
Two things here...Jews will be saved during the Tribulation by faith in Jesus Christ AND good works...

Ah, a mixure of the gospel of works-righteous and the gospel of the second chance.

Combine them with the anticipated slaughter of millions of Jews and you get ... one ... two ... three stikes ye out.

260 posted on 03/04/2009 1:28:38 PM PST by topcat54
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To: Lee N. Field

Thank you. I’ll be here all week. Don’t forget to tip your waitress.


261 posted on 03/04/2009 1:35:11 PM PST by raynearhood ("I consider looseness with words no less of a defect than looseness of the bowels" -John Calvin)
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To: raynearhood; Lee N. Field
Well played, Sir.


262 posted on 03/04/2009 1:40:06 PM PST by topcat54
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To: raynearhood
But the nation state Israel is not the Israel of the Covenant of G-d. They are not heirs to the promise. We are. End of story.

History is filled with such blustering. From Nebuchadnezzar to Hilter...

...for if G-d did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either... Romans 11:21

"Have you not observed what this people have spoken, saying, 'The two families which the L-RD chose, He has rejected them'? Thus they despise My people, no longer are they as a nation in their sight. "Thus says the L-RD, 'If My covenant for day and night stand not, and the fixed patterns of heaven and earth I have not established, then I would reject the descendants of Jacob and David My servant, not taking from his descendants rulers over the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob But I will restore their fortunes and will have mercy on them.'" Jeremiah 33:24-26

And in case you think you have any hope at in the New Covenant, apart from Israel (literally), you are without hope...

"Behold, days are coming," declares the L-RD, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah... Jeremiah 31:31
263 posted on 03/04/2009 1:57:30 PM PST by safisoft
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To: safisoft; Cvengr; topcat54; Iscool; Lee N. Field; Quix; Star Traveler
History is filled with such blustering. From Nebuchadnezzar to Hilter...

Absurd hyperbole is replied to with:

264 posted on 03/04/2009 2:19:51 PM PST by raynearhood ("I consider looseness with words no less of a defect than looseness of the bowels" -John Calvin)
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To: Iscool; Cvengr; topcat54; Lee N. Field; Quix; Star Traveler
If that is "reading what Scripture plainly says," I would hate to see you parse words.

Whoa, What happened here??? Now there's an odd thing, isn't it...Over there in James, Abraham is NOW justified by works...

What happened is that you quoted Scripture piecemeal, out of order, and out of context in order to squeeze a poorly formulated point from it.

Some people can get to God through Jesus Christ...(in Christ, Christ in you)...Others can get to God but not necessarily through Jesus Christ but 'by' the authority of Jesus Christ...

Why then is it constantly denied that dispensation theology asserts that there is one salvation for the nation state of Israel and another for everyone else.

But then you have to be a dispensationalist to get this...

I suppose one would need to be a dispensationalist to understand it because it makes about as much sense Biblically as the theological prowess displayed earlier in the reply.

I'd say you don't know dispensational theology...

Two things here...Jews will be saved during the Tribulation by faith in Jesus Christ AND good works...They must endure to the end (of the Tribulation, or their untimely death for their belief)...This takes place while the church, the body of Christ is in Heaven attending her wedding and the Marriage Supper of the Lamb...


Oh no, I understand it well enough. You have simply restated what I have asserted in different terms. Still, you say the redemptive work of Christ is not necessary for Jews because they get a "second chance" post rapture.
265 posted on 03/04/2009 3:00:25 PM PST by raynearhood ("I consider looseness with words no less of a defect than looseness of the bowels" -John Calvin)
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To: topcat54
Combine them with the anticipated slaughter of millions of Jews and you get ... one ... two ... three stikes ye out.

What...It's the same good works some of you guys and the Catholics believe in over there in Matthew...Where you have to visit people in prison, endure to the end, judgement of the sheep and goats, etc...

I don't know how many Jews and others will be killed during the tribulation...I know Christians will be killed for their testimony in Jesus...

Take a look around you...You don't see the whole world just itchin' to get in there and wipe out Israel??? There is going to be a bloodbath over there in the near East...If you don't know that, you don't believe your eyes, or God...

Another thing you don't seem to get is that God is going to intervene and SAVE THE JEWS...And if you are here during the Tribulation, and do NOT take the mark of the beast, you likely will starve or have your head separated from you body...And thanks to the muzlims, we are all too aware of what that entails...

266 posted on 03/04/2009 4:27:26 PM PST by Iscool (I don't understand all that I know...)
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To: Iscool

Have been quite fascinated at going over a list of Scriptures the last 6 months or so . . . how

UTTERLY ABSURD

grandiosely absurd

the preterist REPLACEMENTARIAN position is . . . just straightforwardly, logically, Biblicly. Just amazing.

And then to read such absurd posts hereon by folks who obviously consider themselves to be erudite, logical, smart, theologically astute etc.

. . . it’s INCREDIBLE TO THE MAX . . .

kind of like folks considering OThuga an American suitable to be PRESIDENT!

WHAT ALICE-IN-WONDERLAND ABSURDITIES TO THE MAX!

I keep threatening to compile such a list of Scriptures and just post the Scriptures. Even 1-3 of which would be sufficient to blow out of the water the whole REPLACEMENTARIAN craziness.

When there are dozens and dozens and dozens of verses piling up shredding the preterist REPLACEMENTARIAN position, it gets soooooooooooooooooo absurd that one begins to wonder what happens between the ears of ANYONE who would dare to imagine it otherwise.

I keep coming back to the conviction that some “Christians” are also plagued with the GREAT DELUSIONS of the END TIMES.

Then there’s the aspect of NONE ARE SO BLIND AS THOSE WHO WILL NOT . . . . WILL NOT . . . see.


267 posted on 03/04/2009 4:41:17 PM PST by Quix (POL Ldrs quotes fm1900 2 presnt: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: Iscool

Take a look around you...You don’t see the whole world just itchin’ to get in there and wipe out Israel??? There is going to be a bloodbath over there in the near East...If you don’t know that, you don’t believe your eyes, or God...


INDEED.

However . . . when granitized minds . . .

stubbornly willfully blind . . .

see Scripture and newspaper headlines matching up . . .

they just assume they are having a nightmare and dismiss it as from the TWILIGHT ZONE.

Somehow, I think God is most UNamused at their silly folly.


268 posted on 03/04/2009 4:44:24 PM PST by Quix (POL Ldrs quotes fm1900 2 presnt: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: raynearhood
Still, you say the redemptive work of Christ is not necessary for Jews because they get a "second chance" post rapture.

No, I don't say...The Scripture saith...

Romans 11...

During the Tribulation there will be 144,000 Jews going thru the land witnessing for Jesus...Many will be saved, if they endure to the end (of the Tribulation)...Many will not...

When Jesus shows up, there's going to be lots of killin'...Will everyone die??? No...Will those folks need the redemptive work of Jesus on the Cross??? No...They will have the Almighty God, the King of Kings and Lord of Lords standing right there in front of them...They will accept Him as their Messiah or not...

It will take about 7 years to clean up the mess of the battle...Jesus will sit on His throne in Jerusalem for 1000 years, ruling over the Nations with a rod of iron, and be a King to His people...

And that's the conclusion you come to when you believe the words of God instead of calling them symbolic, or a metaphor that you have no idea what they are a symbol of...

269 posted on 03/04/2009 4:46:29 PM PST by Iscool (I don't understand all that I know...)
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To: Quix

Exactly Quix...

I may not be 100 accurate in my estimation of the scenario that will play out and that’s fine with me...But I know I’m close...

I know these things have not been fulfilled and I know God is not done with Israel...

And I know we better love and watch over the Jews whether we like them or not...


270 posted on 03/04/2009 4:51:25 PM PST by Iscool (I don't understand all that I know...)
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To: Iscool

I may not be 100 accurate in my estimation of the scenario that will play out and that’s fine with me...But I know I’m close...

I know these things have not been fulfilled and I know God is not done with Israel...

And I know we better love and watch over the Jews whether we like them or not...


ABSOLUTELY ACCURATE.

THIS PROMISE

TO ABRAHAM

IS STILL IN FORCE:


I WILL BLESS THOSE WHO BLESS YOU [and your seed]

AND CURSE THOSE WHO CURSE YOU [and your seed].

Clear. Simple.

GOD ALMIGHTY ON RECORD.

HEAVEN AND EARTH WILL PASS AWAY . . . NOT HIS WORDS.

AND NO AMOUNT OF PRETERIST REPLACEMENTARIAN
ALICE-IN-WONDERLAND RATIONALIZING, EXTRAPOLATING, INFERRING, ASSUMING, BASTARDIZING, MANGLING, HYPERVENTILATING, . . . .

SUCH ABSOLUTELY DEPENDABLE PROMMISES OF GOD

WILL ALTER THOSE PROMISES OF ALMIGHTY GOD

0.0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001% WORTH.


271 posted on 03/04/2009 5:02:14 PM PST by Quix (POL Ldrs quotes fm1900 2 presnt: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: Iscool
What...It's the same good works some of you guys and the Catholics believe in over there in Matthew...Where you have to visit people in prison, endure to the end, judgement of the sheep and goats, etc...

Au contraire, Pierre. No one is saved by faith in Jesus Christ AND anything. There is no “and anything” in the gospel.

I don't know how many Jews and others will be killed during the tribulation...I know Christians will be killed for their testimony in Jesus...

Why not? It says how many in Zechariah 13:8,9.

Take a look around you...You don't see the whole world just itchin' to get in there and wipe out Israel???

“The whole world”? Is that literal or hyperbole? I think this idea is the result of futurism's over-active imagination, plain and simple.

Another thing you don't seem to get is that God is going to intervene and SAVE THE JEWS..

It case you haven't looked around recently, God has been saving Jews for thousands of years. Every time one comes to Christ, the promise of God to Abraham that He would be a God to him and his descendants is being fulfilled, literally, right before our eyes. There is an elect remnant, the true Israel of God.

There is no need to wait until the futurists' tribulation for salvation to come to Jewish people.

272 posted on 03/04/2009 5:10:07 PM PST by topcat54
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To: Iscool; raynearhood
During the Tribulation there will be 144,000 Jews going thru the land witnessing for Jesus ...Many will be saved, if they endure to the end (of the Tribulation)...Many will not...

There is ABSOLUTELY

   NO SUCH ...

VERSE in tHe BIBLE.

This is

   a MyTh ...

     of FUTURISM, like

     all THE OthER ...

   mYTHs of FUTURISM.

[How did I do?]

273 posted on 03/04/2009 5:20:09 PM PST by topcat54
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To: topcat54
[How did I do?]

Spendidly!

Also, I think that the format really drives the point home.
274 posted on 03/04/2009 5:48:17 PM PST by raynearhood ("I consider looseness with words no less of a defect than looseness of the bowels" -John Calvin)
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To: Iscool
.Jews will be saved during the Tribulation by faith in Jesus Christ AND good works

You truly do not see the problem with this?

275 posted on 03/04/2009 6:00:36 PM PST by Lee N. Field ("What is your only comfort, in life and death?" "That I an not my own, but belong, body and soul...")
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To: topcat54
[How did I do?]

Really brings out the nuances in the text, it does.

276 posted on 03/04/2009 6:05:16 PM PST by Lee N. Field (Dispensational exegesis not supported by an a-, post- or historic pre-mil scholar will be ignored.)
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To: topcat54

BTW, I think both you and safisoft need new keyboards. His keeps dropping interior vowels, and your caps lock is discombobulated.


277 posted on 03/04/2009 6:17:24 PM PST by Lee N. Field (2)How many things are necessary for thee to know,..? the first, how great my sins and miseries are;)
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To: Lee N. Field

G-D and L-RD but never J-S-S. Curious.


278 posted on 03/04/2009 6:38:45 PM PST by topcat54
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To: raynearhood

The Church is not Israel.

end of story.


279 posted on 03/04/2009 6:47:12 PM PST by Cvengr (Adversity in life and death is inevitable. Thru faith in Christ, stress is optional.)
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To: topcat54
G-D and L-RD but never J-S-S. Curious.

Never noticed that, but you're right. Curious.
280 posted on 03/04/2009 6:53:58 PM PST by raynearhood ("I consider looseness with words no less of a defect than looseness of the bowels" -John Calvin)
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To: raynearhood
God will not fulfill His promise to Israel in the future because He already has. That work is completed through the work of Christ.

Heb 8:10-11 still are not performed. Neither with Israel nor with the Church.

When somebody slips and replaces Israel with the Church, insisting all the Prophecy of Heb 8:10-11 has been fulfilled, then the Replacement Theologians need to ask themselves, why are they continuing to teach, if His Word is already written in their hearts and minds?

It's also very convenient for Replacement Theologians to forget all the cursings they should inherit along with the blessings they believe they have gained by replacing Israel.

281 posted on 03/04/2009 6:54:20 PM PST by Cvengr (Adversity in life and death is inevitable. Thru faith in Christ, stress is optional.)
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To: Cvengr
The Church is not Israel.

And Jesus is not Moses. But Moses was a type of Christ. Same same.
282 posted on 03/04/2009 7:30:52 PM PST by raynearhood ("I consider looseness with words no less of a defect than looseness of the bowels" -John Calvin)
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To: topcat54

You are correct. There are multiple verses in the Bible pointing directly to such doctrine.


283 posted on 03/04/2009 7:37:30 PM PST by Cvengr (Adversity in life and death is inevitable. Thru faith in Christ, stress is optional.)
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To: raynearhood

We both agree that during the Church Age all who have faith in Christ have salvation, Jew and Gentile alike. Scripture goes further to describe a future time when God the Holy Spirit does not indwell the believer. That time is not in the Church Age.


284 posted on 03/04/2009 8:37:43 PM PST by Cvengr (Adversity in life and death is inevitable. Thru faith in Christ, stress is optional.)
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To: raynearhood
And Jesus is not Moses. But Moses was a type of Christ. Same same.

Except there were explicit contracts made by God regarding Israel explicitly. God didn't promise Moses He would make Him God the Son, but He did promise a land, a seed, and a blessing to Abraham, not merely spiritualizing the promises made.

285 posted on 03/05/2009 4:26:25 AM PST by Cvengr (Adversity in life and death is inevitable. Thru faith in Christ, stress is optional.)
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To: topcat54

Rev 7:1-14 leaves little doubt as to the identity of the 144,000. They are from Israel, a remnant. They aren’t Gentiles. They come out of the Great Tribulation.


286 posted on 03/05/2009 4:48:12 AM PST by Cvengr (Adversity in life and death is inevitable. Thru faith in Christ, stress is optional.)
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To: raynearhood; Iscool; Cvengr; topcat54; Lee N. Field; Quix; Star Traveler

For those who might not have kept up on e-sword, you may want to update the software.

There are also a multitude of outstanding free add-ons from the same website for your studies.

Check it out.
http://www.e-sword.net/step.html


287 posted on 03/05/2009 5:19:17 AM PST by Cvengr (Adversity in life and death is inevitable. Thru faith in Christ, stress is optional.)
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To: topcat54

Answering remotely candidly and accurately

would be making things pointedly personal.


288 posted on 03/05/2009 6:16:37 AM PST by Quix (POL Ldrs quotes fm1900 2 presnt: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: Cvengr
Heb 8:10-11 still are not performed. Neither with Israel nor with the Church.

When somebody slips and replaces Israel with the Church, insisting all the Prophecy of Heb 8:10-11 has been fulfilled, then the Replacement Theologians need to ask themselves, why are they continuing to teach, if His Word is already written in their hearts and minds?

It's also very convenient for Replacement Theologians to forget all the cursings they should inherit along with the blessings they believe they have gained by replacing Israel.

ITTM! [INDEED-TO-THE-MAX!]

I'd shared with a dear prophetic saint in Texas some of the REPLACEMENTARIAN hogwash hereon. Her reply was: "His head is both in the sand of non-reality and in the heights of intellectual arrogance. Only prayer for an humbling and for teachability will bring about a change in attitude. In the meantime, I'd advise that you not throw pearls before swine. Not that he is a pig but his blatant unbelief in Scripture is."

Sounds like an apt analysis, to me.

I've posted recently hereon some excerpts from Keith Intrater's FROM IRAQ TO ARMAGEDDON which showed quite clearly how the 7,000 Jewish Christians in Israel now are similar to the 7,000 remnant Believers not bowing to Baal of Elijah's time.

That's still far from up to the 144,000 that will be fierce evangelists for their TRUE MESSIAH in the END TIMES . . . evidently during the Great Tribulation.

However, I think Intrater makes several good points apropos to this thread. I'll see if I can find those comments.

Thanks for your excellent and very BIBLICAL posts. It's great to read BIBLICAL posts on such threads amidst all the REPLACEMENTARIAN hogwash, chaff, disinformation, deceptions etc.

289 posted on 03/05/2009 6:41:17 AM PST by Quix (POL Ldrs quotes fm1900 2 presnt: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: Cvengr; DarthVader; airborne; American in Israel; auggy; backhoe; bearsgirl90; betsyross60; ...
NEWLY CREATED ABBREVIATED END TIMES/ DREAMS/ VISIONS/ PROPHECY PING LIST FOR MORE FREQUENT PINGS THAN THE ORIGINAL LIST. Please let me know if you want on or off either list.

Ahhhhh,

I see that my post was on this thread. #127. I see some key points were predictably ignored by the Bible and Israel trashers.

I think I'll expound on them a bit here. Not, per se, for the Bible & Israel trashing Replacementarians but for the lurkers who might be reading too quickly to notice some of the trashers' absurdities. It will give me a chance to clear up a host of typos, too.

[Quix color, bold and ALL CAPS emphases]

Have learned on FR that what I thought was very basic OBVIOUS Scripture . . . some folks would consider otherwise.

The absurd notion that most of the END TIMES prophecies were fulfilled in 70AD etc. is just mind bogglingly UNBIBLICAL-TO-THE-MAX.

It's hard for me to conceive that there are even folks who dare to think of themselves as "Christians" who would dare to imagine that God would fail to fulfill even the tiniest of His promises to Israel literally.

Am reading an interesting book:

FROM IRAQ TO ARMAGEDDON: The Final Showdown Approaches

by Keith Intrater.

He notes . . .

---------------------------------------------

p90:

Romans 11:12,15
If their fall is riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more their fullness!

HOW IS IT that such clear Scripture can be so easily trashed by the REPLACEMENTARIANS? Willful blindness? Rebellion against God's will? Obtuse willful cluelessness? Virulent Antisemitism? Irrational hatred of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob? Jealousy? What? Mystifying.

GOD IS DECLARING THROUGH PAUL--HOW MUCH MORE RICHES WILL COME FROM THEIR BEING GRAFTED BACK IN!

Yet REPLACEMENTARIANS ARE BARRING THE DOOR with sharp staves and with seemingly self-righteous haughtiness INSISTING that Israel's day is over WHEN GOD CLEARLY IS INSISTING WHOLESALE OTHERWISE.

If their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?

---

INDEED--RESURRECTION LIFE FROM THE DEAD! I haven't paid much attention to this sentence in many readings of it--over the whole of my life. However, it's kind of profound. PAUL IS HERE LINKING RESURRECTION LIFE WITH ISRAEL'S BEING GRAFTED BACK INTO THE TRUE VINE! What a mystery--since it's not clarified. I guess that makes it easier for the REPLACEMENTARIANS TO TRASH AND FLUSH SCRIPTURE.

"Most Jewish people, because of their rejection of Yeshua, have been like branches cut off of their own tree. The gentile church has been like branches grafted into the tree of faith (see Rom 11:16-22). However, we are to believe that the Jewish people will return and be grafted into the faith of their own Messiah--the most spiritually "natural thing" for them to do."

Romans 11:23
They also, if they do not continue in unbelief will be grafted in, for God is ABLE to graft them in again. [Qx emphasis]

Not only is God able to bring the Jewish people back to faith in Yeshua, He has promised that He WILL DO SO. [Qx emphasis].

I guess since REPLACEMENTARIANS DIDN'T WRITE SCRIPTURE, they feel it's their right to trash it??? And they still consider themselves "Christians?" Amazing.

Romans 11:26a
And so ALL ISRAEL WILL BE SAVED.
[QX emphasis]

"Notice the words 'and so' in this vese. It's not just that all Israel will be saved but that something will happen which will lead to that salvation. What is that something which leads to the 'and so'? It is the change in the attitude of the Church toward Israel's destiny:

Romans 11:25
For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this MYSTERY, lest you should be WISE IN YOUR OWN OPINIONS, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And so . . .
[Qx emphasis]

As the Church receives the revelation of the end-times restoration of Israel, it will pave the way for Israel to come to salvation, which in turn will lead to the second coming of Yeshua.

In the meantime, we have a paradoxical position toward the Jewish people who have not yet received the Lord. It is part negative and part positive.

Romans 11:28
Concerning the gospel they are enemies FOR YOUR SAKE, but concerning the election they are BELOVED for THE SAKE OF THE FATHERS.

"FOR THE SAKE OF THE FATHERS."

OBVIOUSLY the REPLACEMENTARIANS have horribly RIPPED that verse right out of their pseudo-Bibles. Gotta trash & flush that sentence! AT THE VERY LEAST they have to mangle and rationalize it away--rationalize it away TO THE MAX! Maybe their rationalizers are the only parts of their synapses still pseudo-functioning.

OF COURSE IT'S FOR THE SAKE OF THE FATHERS! GOD HAS MADE THAT CLEAR FROM ABRAHAM ON!

Oh, right . . . only God's promises that the REPLACEMENTARIANS CONSTRUE TO APPLY TO THEM are to be faithfully fulfilled. Raaaggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhttttttt! /sar

page 91

The Remnant Within Israel

I have great love for the body of Messianic believers in Israel, which I see as the spiritual remnant of the nation of Israel. The very existence of this remnant has great prophetic significance.

. . .

The third group is the Messianic Jews, those who are Israeli citizens, Jewish and believers in Yeshua. This group currently numbers around seven thousand. It is this group that I am primarily identified with. I believe they have a key role to play in the Kingdom of God.

. . .

p92

We know that Paul's answer to the question whether the prophetic purposes of Israel have been made void is "CERTAINLY NOT! (See Rom 11:1). But how could the destiny of Israel not be canceled, considering the rejection of the Messiah and the punishment from God? Here Paul's answer is also clear: The Remnant.

Throughout history there was always a minority of true believers within the greater nation of Israel. Despite the sins of the nation, that believing remnant carried within it (in seed form) THE DIVINE DESTINY OF THE NATION.

Every nation, in fact, has a prophetic calling from God. That calling is not seen in the overall population of the nation, but in the community of true believers found within the nation. The prophetic calling of the United States is not seen in the motion pictures from Hollywood. That of South Africa is not seen in the racial problems; of Germany, not in Nazism; of Russia, not in communism, etc. The destiny of a nation and its covenant with God are found within the remnant of believers within the nation.

The same is true in Israel. The source of its destiny is not in Tel Aviv discos, nor political parties, nor rabbinic councils. It is in Yeshua, and in the community of citizens that believe in Him. If one wants to understand the destiny of Israel, he must look not to the larger unbelieving population of Israel, but to the core community of believers within the nation. Gentile Christians become confused by not making this distinction. Either they reject God's purposes for Israel altogether, or they try to make something overly spiritual of Israel's pioneers and politicians.

I THINK THIS IS A VERY INTERESTING AND AT LEAST MOSTLY ACCURATE KEY POINT OF INTRATER'S.

Certainly it IS true that God's focus has tended to be throughout history on those who loved Him, believed in Him, walked with Him.

In Israel, we currently have folks believing in GOD ALMIGHTY of two tracks. The traditional Jewish track and those already believing in Christ as their Messiah.

It is certainly plausible to me that God will take up the Christian Messianic Jews as His sole focus in these end times in terms of fulfilling HIS PROMISES to Abraham. IF SO, THE REPLACEMENTARIANS and their rants are worse than smelly burps. Not only are they hollow and UNBiblical, they are absurd to the max. We are, after all, talking about CHRISTIAN JEWS! Sheesh!

Nevertheless, to me, it is ALSO PLAUSIBLE that God will continue to fulfill HIS WORD about HE THAT SEEKS ME SHALL FIND ME--in terms of the honest Torah believing Jews truly seeking God Almighty and their true Messiah--to at some point, by God's miracle WHO PLACED THE BLINDERS ON THEM IN THE FIRST PLACE--TO REMOVE THE BLINDERS SO THAT THEY, TOO, WILL SEE THEIR TRUE MESSIAH AS THEIR TRUE MESSIAH AND OWN HIM AS THEIR TRUE MESSIAH--IN GOD'S WAY--IN GOD'S TIME--IN THESE END TIMES--AS SCRIPTURE HAS CLEARLY INDICATED WILL BE THE CASE--REGARDLESS OF REPLACEMENTARIAN TRASHING OF SUCH SCRIPTURES. HEAVEN AND EARTH WILL PASS AWAY BUT NOT THE TINIEST PUNCTUATION MARK OF SCRIPTURE--GOD'S WORD--REGARDLESS of the arrogance of the REPLACEMENTARIANS.

It would be a small and very Biblical thing for God to do.

Of course, it wouldn't fit III Sylvester chapter 6 verse 66. I don't think God cares about that, in the least.

. . .

The way to have a balanced theology concerning Israel and its destiny is to consider the Messianic Jewish community within Israel. Paul wrote [p93] that the way to understand God's plan for Israel was TO COMPARE THE FAITHFUL REMNANT IN THE TIME OF ELIJAH TO THE MESSIANIC JEWISH COMMUNITY OF HIS DAY.

Romans 11:2,4-5
God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah . . .
what does the divine response say to him? 'I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.'
Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Even so, as it was in the time of Elijah, so it is today. The destiny of Israel, God's plan for the nation, is found within the remnant. Even Elijah was confused when he saw that such a huge majority of the nation of Israel were not believers. However, God told him not to look at the unbelieving majority but t the believing minority.

In Elijah's time, in Paul's time, and EVEN SO AT THIS PRESENT TIME--there was a remnant and there still is a remnant. AND HOW MANY ARE IN THAT REMNANT? SEVEN THOUSAND.

In the time of Elijah, there was a remnant of seven thousand believers within Israel who carried with them the destiny of the nation. Today there is also a remnant within Israel numbering about seven thousand. This remnant is part of bringing us to a new 'age of Elijah' in our generation. God had to point out to Elijah the importance of the several thousand faithful ones. The revelation of the remnant gave him hope, faith, and a better understanding of God's purpose. I believe God is trying to point out the importance of the Messianic remnant within Israel today as well.

p95

The prophetic call for the community of faith to recognize the place of Israel is not a racist preference for the Jewish people, bu rather a SUBMISSION TO THE SOVEREIGNTY OF GOD. ,FONT COLOR=NAVY> It is a recognition of Jerusalem as the seat of HIS earthly authority and a recognition of Yeshua as King of the Jews.

I believe Intrater is quite right. BLESSED BE THE NAME OF THE LORD.

It is even somewhat conceivable that his Biblical insights COULD be a path or some fair-minded REPLACEMENTARIAN Calvinsts to acquire a BIBLICAL understanding of prophecy in our era. . . . perhaps even in the nick of time, at the rate Biblical prophecy is being increasingly fulfilled.

I think Intrater makes many valid and interesting points about the Jewish body of Messianic believers currently in Israel. And, God may well focus entirely on them--multiplying them into the 144,000--12,000 INDIVIDUALS DESCENDED from every ORIGINAL PATRIARCH--IT IS ABUNDANTLY CLEAR THAT GOD WILL CERTAINLY USE SUCH DESCENDANTS IN COMPRISING THE 144,000. Whether He will do it by multiplying the current 7,000 Messianic Jewish believers INTO that 144,000 remains to be seen. He may well. He might well do it through any number of other means, as well.

And I would imagine that His thought to the PROTESTING REPLACEMENTARIANS about their protesting GOD ALMIGHTY'S DOING SO--is that there are some Jordan river rocks they could go suck on since they have obviously lost their passifiers.

290 posted on 03/05/2009 7:56:59 AM PST by Quix (POL Ldrs quotes fm1900 2 presnt: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: Cvengr

Should be interesting to watch the

mental gymnastics;

the convoluted Alice-in-Wonderland theological contortions;

the BIBLE MANGLING;

the obsessive Olympic class rationalizing;

the obsessive Olympic class irrationality;

the willful blindness and chronic obtuseness

that the REPLACEMENTARIANS WILL HAVE TO DEMONSTRATE to get around that one key point. Thanks!


291 posted on 03/05/2009 8:00:22 AM PST by Quix (POL Ldrs quotes fm1900 2 presnt: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: Quix

Hey Quix, thanks for the ping, I will read this later and think about what you’re saying. God bless you, FRiend.


292 posted on 03/05/2009 8:23:15 AM PST by TenthAmendmentChampion (Be prepared for tough times. FReepmail me to learn about our survival thread!)
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To: TenthAmendmentChampion

THANKS THANKS.

YOU TOO!


293 posted on 03/05/2009 8:29:01 AM PST by Quix (POL Ldrs quotes fm1900 2 presnt: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: Quix
Blessings on you and yours.
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach Adonai

294 posted on 03/05/2009 8:49:21 AM PST by Uri’el-2012 (Psalm 119:174 I long for Your salvation, YHvH, Your law is my delight.)
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To: Quix

bflr = bump for later reading


295 posted on 03/05/2009 8:52:53 AM PST by fishtank (Until the GOP repents of supporting Bush, people will think they're just "bashing 0bama".)
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To: XeniaSt

LIKEWISE.

THANKS MUCH FOR YOUR KIND REPLY.


296 posted on 03/05/2009 8:56:44 AM PST by Quix (POL Ldrs quotes fm1900 2 presnt: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: fishtank

THANKS FOR YOUR KIND REPLY.


297 posted on 03/05/2009 8:57:01 AM PST by Quix (POL Ldrs quotes fm1900 2 presnt: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: Quix
I wonder how many have actually thought through the ramifications of "replacement theology."

If God has "replaced" Israel with the Church than He is a liar. If God can break His word to the Jews than what is keeping Him from breaking His word to the the Church? He is VERY specific who is His chosen nation, chosen for a specific purpose. He is also very specific that ALL can be saved through the Jewish Messiah, and enter into covenant with Him.

God is a covenant keeping God that is the same today, yesterday and forever. I am bewildered that so many would choose to believe that God reneges on His promises to His people. God is FAITHFUL to complete ALL that He has promised.

298 posted on 03/05/2009 9:06:07 AM PST by JesusBmyGod (Baruch HaBa B'Shem Adonai)
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To: JesusBmyGod

Yes. Reformed theology has many bankrupt accounts.

It’s not totally bankrupt, just parts of the whole are.


299 posted on 03/05/2009 9:10:07 AM PST by fishtank (Until the GOP repents of supporting Bush, people will think they're just "bashing 0bama".)
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To: JesusBmyGod
I wonder how many have actually thought through the ramifications of "replacement theology."

If God has "replaced" Israel with the Church than He is a liar. If God can break His word to the Jews than what is keeping Him from breaking His word to the the Church? He is VERY specific who is His chosen nation, chosen for a specific purpose. He is also very specific that ALL can be saved through the Jewish Messiah, and enter into covenant with Him.

God is a covenant keeping God that is the same today, yesterday and forever. I am bewildered that so many would choose to believe that God reneges on His promises to His people. God is FAITHFUL to complete ALL that He has promised.

INDEED TO THE MAX.

However, human nature is sooooooooooooo addicted to rationalizing. We seem quite able to rationalize all kinds of horrible stuff quite away . . . or even evil into good.

But this sure is a mind-boggling example. There are soooooooooooooooo many redundant redundant again again Scriptures about HIS UTTER FAITHFULNESS TO ABRAHAM AND ABRAHM'S SEED--IT'S MORE THAN IRON CLAD, TO ME.

I also think the PURPOSE is lost--the PURPOSE OF HIS PROMISES TO ABRAHAM.

His promises to Abraham are only partially a kind of thanks to Abraham as GOD'S FRIEND.

THEY ARE PRIMARILY FOR GOD TO DISPLAY HIS GLORY THROUGH HIS FAITHFULNESS TO HIS CHOSEN PEOPLE.

And if REPLACEMENTARIANS THINK that God is going to abandon displaying HIS GLORY through the seed of Abraham--they really are clueless . . . and evidently willfully so.

300 posted on 03/05/2009 9:13:35 AM PST by Quix (POL Ldrs quotes fm1900 2 presnt: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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