Posted on 02/28/2010 8:30:39 AM PST by CondoleezzaProtege
John Calvin's 16th century reply to medieval Catholicism's buy-your-way-out-of-purgatory excesses is Evangelicalism's latest success story, complete with an utterly sovereign and micromanaging deity, sinful and puny humanity, and the combination's logical consequence, predestination: the belief that before time's dawn, God decided whom he would save (or not), unaffected by any subsequent human action or decision.
Calvinism, cousin to the Reformation's other pillar, Lutheranism, is a bit less dour than its critics claim: it offers a rock-steady deity who orchestrates absolutely everything, including illness (or home foreclosure!), by a logic we may not understand but don't have to second-guess. Our satisfaction — and our purpose — is fulfilled simply by "glorifying" him. In the 1700s, Puritan preacher Jonathan Edwards invested Calvinism with a rapturous near mysticism. Yet it was soon overtaken in the U.S. by movements like Methodism that were more impressed with human will. Calvinist-descended liberal bodies like the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) discovered other emphases, while Evangelicalism's loss of appetite for rigid doctrine — and the triumph of that friendly, fuzzy Jesus — seemed to relegate hard-core Reformed preaching (Reformed operates as a loose synonym for Calvinist) to a few crotchety Southern churches.
No more. Neo-Calvinist ministers and authors don't operate quite on a Rick Warren scale. But, notes Ted Olsen, a managing editor at Christianity Today, "everyone knows where the energy and the passion are in the Evangelical world" — with the pioneering new-Calvinist John Piper of Minneapolis, Seattle's pugnacious Mark Driscoll and Albert Mohler, head of the Southern Seminary of the huge Southern Baptist Convention. The Calvinist-flavored ESV Study Bible sold out its first printing, and Reformed blogs like Between Two Worlds are among cyber-Christendom's hottest links.
(Excerpt) Read more at time.com ...
Regeneration is simultaneous with it.
Jesus draws: “If I be lifted up, I will draw all humanity unto me.”
When they observe, because they are drawn, some will resist willfully. Others will hear the voice of the shepherd, their own shepherd, they will know Him, and they will follow.
Those who reject are not of His sheep, nor of His sheepfold. They are not children of God, which He could raise up of these stones, but they are “of their father the Devil.”
So, yes, the good seed have been prepared with good soil. Luke 8:15 “But the seed on good soil stands for those with a noble and good heart, who hear the word, retain it, and by persevering produce a crop.”
If “all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God” and if “all our righteousness is as filthy rags” and if “the heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked”, then how did these get good hearts BEFORE “they heard the word (and) retained it.”?
betty boop, marron, Texas Songwriter, P-Marlowe, spirited irish and others have brought many wonderful insights to the debate over the years. And I am honored to be joined with them in the great debate. Their arguments are eloquent, informed, piercing, logical, faithful.
But I am a Christian, plain and simple.
So my first contribution is usually what I posted earlier because I have observed that the presupposition most atheist/agnostic seek to achieve in their arguments is their belief that God is a hypothesis. And from there, they usually admit only whatever evidence is acceptable to a metaphysical naturalist with the ultimate goal being to convince a Christian that God is a delusion.
I give no ground whatsoever to atheists or agnostics' presupposition by simply declaring my testimony: God is not a hypothesis. He lives. His Name is I AM. I've known Him for a half century and counting.
The claim that One I have known so long and so well is a hypothesis is absurd on the face. So I let them know, the conversation will not "go there."
Thereafter, I simply convey the words of God which speak for themselves. The power is in His words, not mine.
Who hath ears to hear, let him hear. - Matthew 13:9
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned. – I Cor 2:14
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life. – John 6:63
So despite your objections, I shall continue to "cut and paste" as appropriate.
God's Name is I AM.
And nothing men can do will determine that regeneration. God determines who will be saved for His own good reasons, not as a reward for anything.
Salvation is unmerited. Grace is unearned. God elects, not on our good works, not even our good work of faith. God elects and therefore men believe. God doesn't elect and therefore men remain in their fallen nature and they don't believe.
And if God has elected someone, that person will believe, by the targeted, effective, purposeful work of the Holy Spirit in them.
All God. Every single bit of everything. "Jesus Christ, by whom all things consist." (Colossians 1)
Men get good hearts in order to hear and know and love the word of God.
And not all men get new hearts. Or new eyes and ears.
bttt
“Regeneration is simultaneous with it.”
I agree. The instant one believes, he is born again, a new creation in Christ.
Not according to Calvinists.
“We may define regeneration as follows: Regeneration is a secret act of God in which he imparts new spiritual life to us. This is sometimes called “being born again” (using language from John 3:3–8)...As we will see later in this chapter, Scripture indicates that regeneration must come before we can respond to effective calling with saving faith. Therefore we can say that regeneration comes before the result of effective calling (our faith). But it is more difficult to specify the exact relationship in time between regeneration and the human proclamation of the gospel through which God works in effective calling.” — Wayne Grudem
“This concept of cooperation is at best a half-truth. Yes, the faith we exercise is our faith. God does not do the believing for us. When I respond to Christ, it is my response, my faith, my trust that is being exercised. The issue, however, goes deeper. The question still remains: “Do I cooperate with God’s grace before I am born again, or does the cooperation occur after?” Another way of asking this question is to ask if regeneration is monergistic or synergistic. Is it operative or cooperative? Is it effectual or dependent? Some of these words are theological terms that require further explanation...The reason we do not cooperate with regenerating grace before it acts upon us and in us is because we can- not. We cannot because we are spiritually dead. We can no more assist the Holy Spirit in the quickening of our souls to spiritual life than Lazarus could help Jesus raise him for the dead.” — R. C. Sproul
http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/sproul01.html
Again, the Calvinist uses dead in our sin as the totality of our state before conversion, although scripture provides many other examples that indicate otherwise.
Calvin taught we are totally dead, and thus need to be regenerated to life before any faith or belief is possible. Yet scripture clearly and explicitly teaches otherwise.
“2But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God...”
Those who believe become children of God, they don’t become children and then believe.
“...you refuse to come to me that you may have life.” To come is to receive life, not the other way around.
“40For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”
Once again, eternal life is given to those who believe, not to those on a list of names who then believe.
“these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.”
By believing you may have life, not you have life that you may believe.
“If “all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God” and if “all our righteousness is as filthy rags” and if “the heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked”, then how did these get good hearts BEFORE “they heard the word (and) retained it.”?”
Yes, all have sinned. Yes, if God doesn’t reach down to us, we will certainly never reach up to him. But what does Jesus command? “Repent, and believe”. And when some do not, he condemns them for refusing.
We are also described as slaves, lost, and sick, children of an evil father. All of those allow repentance.
So does being ‘dead’:
11And he said, “There was a man who had two sons. 12And the younger of them said to his father, ‘Father, give me the share of property that is coming to me.’ And he divided his property between them. 13Not many days later, the younger son gathered all he had and took a journey into a far country, and there he squandered his property in reckless living. 14And when he had spent everything, a severe famine arose in that country, and he began to be in need. 15So he went and hired himself out to one of the citizens of that country, who sent him into his fields to feed pigs. 16And he was longing to be fed with the pods that the pigs ate, and no one gave him anything.
17”But when he came to himself, he said, ‘How many of my father’s hired servants have more than enough bread, but I perish here with hunger! 18I will arise and go to my father, and I will say to him, “Father, I have sinned against heaven and before you. 19 I am no longer worthy to be called your son. Treat me as one of your hired servants.”’ 20And he arose and came to his father. But while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and felt compassion, and ran and embraced him and kissed him. 21And the son said to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and before you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son.’ 22But the father said to his servants, ‘Bring quickly the best robe, and put it on him, and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet. 23And bring the fattened calf and kill it, and let us eat and celebrate. 24For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found.’ And they began to celebrate.
You can be ‘dead’ to God, yet still repent, when you change your mind. According to Jesus. “”But when he came to himself, he said...”
Mr. Rogers: According to scripture, faith. For while we cannot come to it on our own - faith, by definition, takes two - we are responsible for believing, or not.
OK, so you openly admit that faith was not given to you but that you generated your own faith yourself with help. YET, for some reason you refuse to admit that you save yourself. This continues to puzzle me in that I cannot understand why you won't admit it. We don't think you believe you save yourself BY yourself, just that you believe the ultimate decision, the one that determines everything, is yours and yours alone. Let's try it this way. If you had to put a number on it, what percentage of contribution toward your salvation would you give to yourself and God? Would it be 50-50, or would it be more to one or the other, etc.? This is in the context of there being no salvation without you and your decision to generate faith from within yourself with help (since it was not given to you).
We've all seen the famous bumper-sticker. Given your beliefs, I would be very interested to know what you think of the statement "God is my co-pilot".
Dr E: “Men get good hearts in order to hear and know and love the word of God.”
“these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.”
Does life give belief, or believing result in life? What is the order in scripture?
You must establish faith (trust) in something to believe in it. Once you have confidence in something you can believe in it. You don't believe in something before you can trust it!
Therefore what I said stands, namely that a belief is a willing acceptance of something based on faith (trust)—that is, on something that you came to trust and willingly accept. Otherwise it's a blind belief.
You don't wake up one morning and say "I believe!" and then develop faith (trust) in God. No, you first develop faith (trust) in God and then believe in him.
If I’m drowning, and someone throws a rope that I grab, have I saved myself?
Of course not.
“We don’t think you believe you save yourself BY yourself, just that you believe the ultimate decision, the one that determines everything, is yours and yours alone.”
What does Jesus say?
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life...Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already...”
Whoever believes, and whoever does not. Jesus does NOT say, “Whoever is on my list will be given life and believe”.
All I’m doing is paying attention to what Jesus says.
OK. I see your point now. Sorry.
“Given your beliefs, I would be very interested to know what you think of the statement “God is my co-pilot”.”
If someone thinks God is their co-pilot, they are driving to hell. God doesn’t share the throne - you believe he is God, or not.
Calvinism is the scourge of Christianity.
“In Him is no darkness at all.”
Calvinism , in error at it’s very foundation, is a false doctrine that will burn in hell.
Here is a question for you. Paul wrote:
19For though I am free from all, I have made myself a servant to all, that I might win more of them. 20 To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to win Jews. To those under the law I became as one under the law (though not being myself under the law) that I might win those under the law. 21To those outside the law I became as one outside the law (not being outside the law of God but under the law of Christ) that I might win those outside the law. 22 To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all people, that by all means I might save some. 23I do it all for the sake of the gospel, that I may share with them in its blessings. - 1 Cor 9
Who did Paul think he was, that he “might save some”?
I have noticed that "modus operandi" too, dearest sister in Christ. Yet I declare that the reality of God is not contingent on His "acceptability" according to metaphysical naturalist categories. God simply can't be "reduced" to such criteria. This is the point that metaphysical naturalists — i.e., those of agnostic/atheist bent — absolutely refuse to grasp.
To me, if there is to be a "proof" of the existence of God, it can only come from the actual experiences of individuals in communion with Him. Thus when you say —
God is not a hypothesis. He lives. His Name is I AM. I've known Him for a half century and counting.— I take this testimony and witness as "best evidence."
Thank you so very much for your beautiful essay/post, and your kind words of support!
So how does quoting 1John 1:5 prove that Calvinism is a false doctrine? In Christ there is no darkness. It doesn’t say in man there is no darkness.
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