Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

A different take on the Carthage mob -- BYU Studies Symposium
Mormon Times ^ | March 13, 2010 | Nick Newman

Posted on 03/13/2010 4:21:42 PM PST by Colofornian

PROVO, Utah -- Those who were responsible for the death of the Prophet Joseph Smith and his brother Hyrum on June 27, 1844, were not who might you think they were, according to one presenter at the BYU Studies 50th Anniversary Symposium.

Debra Marsh, a master's student at the University of Utah, presented evidence Friday that the members of the Illinois mob that sought to put an end to Mormonism at Carthage Jail didn't rot away because of "the Mormon curse," as N.B. Lundwall claimed in his book, "The Fate of the Persecutors of the Prophet Joseph Smith," but went on to live normal lives.

Another characterization from B.H. Roberts found in the introduction to volume 6 of the History of the Church, which called the mob a "criminal element" and "ruffians" isn't correct, either, Marsh said.

Marsh, in her paper "Respectable Assassins: A Collective Biography and Socioeconomic Study of the Carthage Mob," said that contrary to popular belief the mobsters did not suffer for their actions, and actually were respected people who went on to greater accomplishments.

"The Carthage mob members lived normal life spans, through which they prospered financially," Marsh said. "They ran for and won political office, and generally appear to be protected and honored by their fellow citizens for their participation in the murders of Joseph and Hyrum Smith. "

Marsh used a list of 89 men compiled by Sheriff Jacob Backenstos and a variety of other records to paint a picture of who these mobsters were. According to her research, while they came from the same regions of the country as others who lived in the area, mobsters were generally older than the general male population of Hancock County and were mostly learned professionals, businessmen and farmers who had their own property. The mob also had 16 men who held 24 different public offices, including state senator and U.S. senator. A large majority of the mob would have been considered in the upper class.

"This was a group of men that represented the top tier of Hancock county, in regards to power and socioeconomic status."

Marsh then showed what happened to the mob after the martyrdom of the Smith brothers.

"Most of these individuals seem to have lived normal life spans in which they prospered," Marsh said. "Obviously, living a long life doesn't necessarily translate into good fortune. But if financial well-being is an indicator of the quality of one's life, then they lived quite well."

In 1850, the average earnings of the mob were barely more than the U.S. average, with mobsters earning $1,540 compared to $1,050 for the average American. But at the end of the decade, mobsters had increased their earnings by 249 percent, or five times the national average, earning an average of $7,842 compared to $2,140. One member, Mark Aldrich, was extremely successful in the California Gold Rush and later became a merchant in Tucson, Ariz., with his personal estate valued at $50,000. Another, Jacob C. Davis, ended up being a state senator and eventually a U.S. senator for Illinois. Mob members held 24 public offices between 1844 and 1856.

Marsh also referred to various historical accounts in which men list being part of the proceedings at Carthage Jail as one of their life's greatest achievements.

Seeing the killers of Mormonism's founder doesn't take away from Marsh's testimony of the church, and she says it shouldn't bother other Mormons, either.

"Some people are uncomfortable with the idea that the mob members prospered. I know that the notion that an unseen hand dispersing justice to the wicked is very comforting," Marsh said.

"However, it quite simply isn't true. The wicked often prosper in this life. As many of us believe, though, we all will have to account for our actions, if not in this life, in the next. The most important fact remains, regardless of what happened to the Carthage mob: Joseph and Hyrum Smith were martyrs for God, and Joseph did more, save Jesus only, for the salvation of men in this world than any other man that lived in it."


TOPICS: Current Events; History; Other Christian; Religion & Culture
KEYWORDS: antimormonthread; christian; death; josephsmith; lds; mormon; mormon1
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-5051-100101-121 last
To: Texan Tory
"Thank you, peace is restored lol."

........except with anything to do with that phoney fake "prophet" con man Joe Smith. No "peace" there, ever, until the entire mormon cult denounces that jackazz.

Just sayin'. :>

101 posted on 03/14/2010 10:15:39 PM PDT by NoRedTape (Reid is a mormon LouZer in politics...Mittster is next...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 100 | View Replies]

To: NoRedTape

.except with anything to do with that phoney fake “prophet” con man Joe Smith. No “peace” there, ever, until the entire mormon cult denounces that jackazz.

- - - - -
Don’t hold back NRT, c’mon tell us how you REALLY feel. ;)


102 posted on 03/15/2010 9:21:56 AM PDT by reaganaut (Don't mind me, I did a little to much LDS in the 80's)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 101 | View Replies]

To: Godzilla; ejonesie22; Tennessee Nana; Texan Tory; Colofornian; colorcountry; greyfoxx39; ...

Well - I haven’t gotten in my requisite digs on this thread so I’ll dive in and state my piece.

It is recorded reliably that joey-boy smith, polygamist, convicted glass-looker and liar, known paedophile (”married” to multiple underage girls), false prophet (one failed prophecy a false prophet makes - Joe failed several - see Deuteronomy 18:22), and all-around moral profligate...requested a quantity of wine to be brought in for what turned out to be his final meal on earth, in direct contravention to the principles, rules and doctrines he imposed upon others in his church (and exerted judgment and punishment upon them for violations of same).

Testimony is also recorded that he sought and accepted the offer of not only one, but two six guns to be illicitly smuggled in to him where he was jailed, intended by him to facilitate a jailbreak in order to evade the justice that the courts were sure to impose upon him.

It just conveniently so happened that he had those guns with him when the mob of men came calling at the Carthage jail late that evening after Smith and fellow detainees had enjoyed a sumptuous repast, and...

In direct contradiction of the popular brainwash myth that is propagated among the LDS faithful to this day (namely the completely baseless and delusional LIE that Smitty-boy went meekly and willingly like a lamb to the slaughter and died as a courageous martyr, of and for the faith), the lying reprobate exhibited the same irredeemably weak moral fiber and cowardice he had displayed all his sorry, misbegotten life - unwilling to go quietly and stand to account for his cheating, thieving, defrauding, and other vices, crimes and misdemeanors.

He died having committed at least one murder most foul in full view of several witnesses - shooting a man in the face at close range, and the fact that more did not provably die by his smuggled gun that night is only attributable to either the misfire of shells, or the inaccuracy of his shooting skills.

Smitty died the death of a worthless, craven coward, desperate to escape the penalty for wrongs he knew he had done.

He initially hoped that the mob was friendly, and had come to assist him in gaining his freedom, but when he realized that was not the case his act of last resort was a low effort to appeal to fellow brother masons he hoped might be in the mob, raising his arms and trying to form a square and give the distress cry ‘O Lord my G-D have pity on a poor widow’s son’, but only finished the “Oh Lord my G_d..” portion thereof.

In long and short, Joey was far from an upright man and good example of righteous behaviour - he was an unrepentant braggart, a womanizer, a drinker, vengeful towards those he considered his enemies (NOT a short list - either in his estimation or theirs) and when he was killed that night

justice was absolutely served.

The indications that several of the members of the mob that night later prospered is not a vindication or an indictment of them - it is just a rather pleasant icing on the cake.

They did the nation a service, it is just too bad joey did not meet his end much earlier, before he had caused so much damage with his lies and machinations. I suppose that was a way for the Sovereign Lord (whose name and cause were misrepresented and misappropriated by ol’ Joe) to provide adequate time for the repentance that never did come.

Bearing in mind of course that his death came about a month after Smitty’s thundering public boast that he had done more than any man - even Jesus - who was left by the disciples, but no latter day saint had ever left him yet, blah blah blah!

Smith’s demise strongly suggests a Sovereign G_d who had wearied of such empty prattle, and he got what he deserved.

Far be it from me to doubt the wisdom of such Divine Providence raising a hand to strike down a fool and a worthless braggart.

A.A.C.


103 posted on 03/15/2010 11:36:24 PM PDT by AmericanArchConservative (Armour on, Lances high, Swords out, Bows drawn, Shields front ... Eagles UP!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 13 | View Replies]

To: Texan Tory
Yea, there is nothing like a lamb being led to slaughter returning fire. History is replete with such Martyrs.

Reminiscent of Jesus himself when he took out the 5 Roman Centurions on the way to the cross...

Oh wait...

104 posted on 03/16/2010 3:37:21 AM PDT by ejonesie22 (Palin bashers on freerepublic, like a fart in Church...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 20 | View Replies]

To: svcw
I wish they had not been killed in the shootout.

A trial very well may have ended this Mormon mess in its infancy.

105 posted on 03/16/2010 3:39:49 AM PDT by ejonesie22 (Palin bashers on freerepublic, like a fart in Church...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 29 | View Replies]

To: Logophile

Um...

Ok.


106 posted on 03/16/2010 3:44:14 AM PDT by ejonesie22 (Palin bashers on freerepublic, like a fart in Church...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 25 | View Replies]

To: vladimir998
When I’ve read passages in the BOM they certainly came across to me as dull and poorly...(ahem) ‘translated’.

It was the "reformed" Egyptian.

Nonexistent languages are difficult to translate into English...

107 posted on 03/16/2010 3:55:53 AM PDT by ejonesie22 (Palin bashers on freerepublic, like a fart in Church...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 53 | View Replies]

To: Godzilla
Its unbelievable...

But it takes a long time to find it...

108 posted on 03/16/2010 4:00:11 AM PDT by ejonesie22 (Palin bashers on freerepublic, like a fart in Church...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 95 | View Replies]

To: AmericanArchConservative
Well - I haven’t gotten in my requisite digs on this thread so I’ll dive in and state my piece.

You don't waste time catching up. :)

109 posted on 03/16/2010 8:44:55 AM PDT by Godzilla (3-7-77)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 103 | View Replies]

To: Godzilla; AmericanArchConservative

You don’t waste time catching up. :)

- - - - - - -
Especially since THIS thread was a lot more fun.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2469537/posts?page=190#190


110 posted on 03/16/2010 10:17:52 AM PDT by reaganaut (ex-mormon, now Christian - "I once was lost but now am found, was blind but now I see")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 109 | View Replies]

To: reaganaut; AmericanArchConservative
Especially since THIS thread was a lot more fun.

and the source of that fun is probably quivering in Canada waiting for the final solution to mormonism.

111 posted on 03/16/2010 10:23:46 AM PDT by Godzilla (3-7-77)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 110 | View Replies]

To: Godzilla; AmericanArchConservative; colorcountry

and the source of that fun is probably quivering in Canada waiting for the final solution to mormonism.

- - - - - - -

Well, he hasn’t posted since.

http://www.freerepublic.com/tag/by:edwardwatson/index?tab=comments;brevity=full;options=no-change

And I am sure he will equate last weeks Capstone Conference with the Wannsee Conference.


112 posted on 03/16/2010 10:27:47 AM PDT by reaganaut (ex-mormon, now Christian - "I once was lost but now am found, was blind but now I see")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 111 | View Replies]

To: AmericanArchConservative

Good post about the Vile Prophet.

Joseph Smith did not die for his faith, like any
Biblical martyr.

1. He was in jail for destruction of private property.
2. He had an angry mob after him because of a great deal
of wrongs he had done.
3. He fired into the mob as it rushed his cell.
4. He caught return fire.

He was neither a prophet, nor a man of God, nor a martyr.

He was simply a vile man who started life deceiving
others that he could see below the earth using a
peepstone. He admitted he faked it to get money.

He pursued other men’s wives to add to his harem. They
understandably did not like this.

I am not mistaken about the man’s character - he
admitted this himself. Nor am I mistaken about the events.
I’ve read contemporaneous accounts.

Not a martyr, but a horndog.

ampu


113 posted on 03/16/2010 2:18:47 PM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 103 | View Replies]

To: ejonesie22
Good point. But the enemy is clever when it comes to distortion of The Word, remember he comes to devourer and destroy.
114 posted on 03/16/2010 4:46:03 PM PDT by svcw (Jesus comforts the uncomfortable and makes uncomfortable the comfortable.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 105 | View Replies]

To: svcw
Very true, but it would have been interesting.
115 posted on 03/16/2010 4:47:42 PM PDT by ejonesie22 (Palin bashers on freerepublic, like a fart in Church...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 114 | View Replies]

To: Godzilla

That is the point.


116 posted on 03/17/2010 11:16:13 PM PDT by BlueMoose
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 58 | View Replies]

To: Tennessee Nana

WOW


117 posted on 03/20/2010 4:56:11 PM PDT by BlueMoose
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: All
Wow! I found this thread through a search, and wound up here on my old stomping ground. I was a member starting in 1998 as UnsinkableMollyBrown. I really cut my teeth on the Constitution here. Learned more than you know.

What a blight on Free Republic to have this thread recorded! Read my latest blog post at Time of Reason It appears most of you will stand shoulder to shoulder with the anti-christ when he shows up.

118 posted on 05/29/2012 7:05:19 PM PDT by SevenSuns
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 117 | View Replies]

To: yefragetuwrabrumuy
Being outsiders, it began with a diplomatic effort of sorts, in which the Smith’s endeavored to get a political alliance with the Republican party, offering to encourage “the Mormon vote” for Republicans in exchange for some degree of political protection of the Mormons by the Republicans.

The Republican party did not exist at this time. It was organized ten years after Smith's death.

119 posted on 05/29/2012 8:08:00 PM PDT by Zionist Conspirator (Ki-hagoy vehamamlakhah 'asher lo'-ya`avdukh yove'du; vehagoyim charov yecheravu!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: Zionist Conspirator

Yes, a reorganized Whig party, anti-slavery activists, modernizers, and ex-Free Soilers. Unfortunately today, it muddies the water to talk about the political dealings of the Smiths with the “not yet Republicans”, united in opposition to the Democrats and the Know-Nothings, but who had not yet coalesced into a national party of opposition.

Yet my point remains, the Smiths tried to form a political bloc of Mormons to get the protection of one of the major factions, but they were unable to do so, because the Mormons were not politically monolithic. And this backfired terribly because it “turned every man’s hand against them”, in a manner of speaking.

And thus it remains today, with the bulk of Mormons supporting Republicans, but a strong minority (including Romney) who are confirmed liberals.


120 posted on 05/29/2012 8:24:59 PM PDT by yefragetuwrabrumuy
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 119 | View Replies]

To: SevenSuns

Matt. 29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Revelation 1:7 “Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him, and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. Even so. Amen.”

Sorry, I don’t see anything in the Bible about a secret meeting in a forest with a teenager of highly questionable character or morals.

The Bible states that when Christ returns, it will be for the whole world to see. Not in secret.

http://www.goodnewsforlds.org/

http://www.str.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=5144


121 posted on 05/29/2012 9:29:43 PM PDT by SZonian (Throwing our allegiances to political party's in the long run gave away our liberty.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 118 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-5051-100101-121 last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson