A different take on the Carthage mob -- BYU Studies Symposium

Mormon Times ^ | March 13, 2010 | Nick Newman

[Colofornian]

PROVO, Utah -- Those who were responsible for the death of the Prophet Joseph Smith and his brother Hyrum on June 27, 1844, were not who might you think they were, according to one presenter at the BYU Studies 50th Anniversary Symposium.

Debra Marsh, a master's student at the University of Utah, presented evidence Friday that the members of the Illinois mob that sought to put an end to Mormonism at Carthage Jail didn't rot away because of "the Mormon curse," as N.B. Lundwall claimed in his book, "The Fate of the Persecutors of the Prophet Joseph Smith," but went on to live normal lives.

Another characterization from B.H. Roberts found in the introduction to volume 6 of the History of the Church, which called the mob a "criminal element" and "ruffians" isn't correct, either, Marsh said.

Marsh, in her paper "Respectable Assassins: A Collective Biography and Socioeconomic Study of the Carthage Mob," said that contrary to popular belief the mobsters did not suffer for their actions, and actually were respected people who went on to greater accomplishments.

"The Carthage mob members lived normal life spans, through which they prospered financially," Marsh said. "They ran for and won political office, and generally appear to be protected and honored by their fellow citizens for their participation in the murders of Joseph and Hyrum Smith. "

Marsh used a list of 89 men compiled by Sheriff Jacob Backenstos and a variety of other records to paint a picture of who these mobsters were. According to her research, while they came from the same regions of the country as others who lived in the area, mobsters were generally older than the general male population of Hancock County and were mostly learned professionals, businessmen and farmers who had their own property. The mob also had 16 men who held 24 different public offices, including state senator and U.S. senator. A large majority of the mob would have been considered in the upper class.

"This was a group of men that represented the top tier of Hancock county, in regards to power and socioeconomic status."

Marsh then showed what happened to the mob after the martyrdom of the Smith brothers.

"Most of these individuals seem to have lived normal life spans in which they prospered," Marsh said. "Obviously, living a long life doesn't necessarily translate into good fortune. But if financial well-being is an indicator of the quality of one's life, then they lived quite well."

In 1850, the average earnings of the mob were barely more than the U.S. average, with mobsters earning $1,540 compared to $1,050 for the average American. But at the end of the decade, mobsters had increased their earnings by 249 percent, or five times the national average, earning an average of $7,842 compared to $2,140. One member, Mark Aldrich, was extremely successful in the California Gold Rush and later became a merchant in Tucson, Ariz., with his personal estate valued at $50,000. Another, Jacob C. Davis, ended up being a state senator and eventually a U.S. senator for Illinois. Mob members held 24 public offices between 1844 and 1856.

Marsh also referred to various historical accounts in which men list being part of the proceedings at Carthage Jail as one of their life's greatest achievements.

Seeing the killers of Mormonism's founder doesn't take away from Marsh's testimony of the church, and she says it shouldn't bother other Mormons, either.

"Some people are uncomfortable with the idea that the mob members prospered. I know that the notion that an unseen hand dispersing justice to the wicked is very comforting," Marsh said.

"However, it quite simply isn't true. The wicked often prosper in this life. As many of us believe, though, we all will have to account for our actions, if not in this life, in the next. The most important fact remains, regardless of what happened to the Carthage mob: Joseph and Hyrum Smith were martyrs for God, and Joseph did more, save Jesus only, for the salvation of men in this world than any other man that lived in it."

[Elsie]

So what’s your point, since the mob people didn’t suffer a curse it must have been ok for them to have killed Joseph and Hyrum Smith?

That's a stretch.

Since it didn't rain last Thursday in Dallas, it must be ok if Ft. Worth children go thirsty!

Happy NOW?

[Elsie]

Don’t scholars of American history know when to use the word “prosopography”?

Would those folks be the one's who've read the Book of MORMON and labled it 'prosaic'?

[Elsie]

Why doesn’t he just come right out and say that he’s glad that Joseph and Hyrum Smith were shot and that the perps prospered thereafter?

Uh...

Maybe because he ISN'T??

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

[Elsie]

So based on such limited evidence, you automatically conclude that Joseph Smith intentionally killed his own brother during the mob attack?

Where, in her response, do YOU read THIS??

[Elsie]

You are mentally unbalanced.

[Elsie]

When people are shooting at you, and you shoot back and kill one or more, that isn’t murder. It’s generally seen as justifiable homicide in a court of law.

Using YOUR example of the POLICE in reply number 15...

When POLICE are shooting at you, and you shoot back and kill one or more; that isn’t murder?

It’s generally seen as justifiable homicide in a court of law; and you do BIG time!

[Elsie]

 

1. Joseph Smith translated, by the gift and power of God, the ancient record known as the Book of Mormon.

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The "Caractors" are the only tangible evidence in existence related to Smith's story.

 

 No gold plates, no brass plates, no peep stones, no Urim and Thummim... only these "Caractors," not a single one of which is in the purported languages.

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Smith's translation of the Caractors. According to Martin Harris (Joseph Smith - History, 1:64), "I went to the city of New York, and presented the characters which had been translated, with the translation thereof, to Professor Charles Anthon, a gentleman celebrated for his literary attainments. Professor Anthon stated that the translation was correct, more so than any he had before seen translated from the Egyptian. I then showed him those which were not yet translated,* and he said they were Egyptian, Chaldaic, Assyriac, and Arabic; and he said they were true characters."

Speak right up now in all truthfulness. Isn't it revealing how Smith started out making a stab at creating believable "caractors" but quckly gave up and produced nothing but squiggles, ending up wih a series of nothing more than crude little scribbles? Yet Professor Anthon supposedly translated them!

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*Harris must have had two or three pieces of paper with him—one with characters and a translation of them (on the same paper or a separate one) and one with untranslated characters—quite likely the "Caractors." Some Mormon "scholars" have gone out on a limb, sawed it off, and knocked themselves out trying to translate from these true Egyptian, Chaldaic, Assyriac, and Arabic characters a segment that would correspond with a verse from 1 Nephi.

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Modern-day experts in Egyptian, Chaldaic, Assyriac, and Arabic. In 1829, any knowledge of these languages possessed by U.S. scholars would have been rudimentary at best. Expertise in them has vastly improved since then. So go ahead, do it. Get any modern expert in these languages to identify which of these "Caractors" are Egyptian, Chaldaic, Assyriac and Arabic. Better still, accept the claim of Mormon apologists that Anthon did indeed so testify and that his appraisal of the Caractors was correct. (Op. cit, pp. 73-75)

Save your money! Samples of Assyriac/Aramaic and Arabic writing:

     .
 

     .
 

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What say you? Which of Smith's "Caractors" resemble the Assyriac and Arabic ones? No need to pay experts for their analysis. A child could accurately check this out. These writing systems have remained constant for well over 3000 years.

[Elsie]

2. Acting under the direction Jesus Christ, Joseph Smith organized the Church of Jesus Christ.

Which fell apart after his death into different groups...

[Elsie]

4. Joseph Smith received the power from God to seal on earth and in heaven.

Oh??

Matthew 16:19
I will give to you the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will have been bound in heaven; and whatever you release on earth will have been released in heaven."

[Elsie]

You are really nuts.

Today is is called:

Suicide by cop.

[Elsie]

It just seems doubtful to me that Smith would have fired until he was fired upon.

Is there a count of how many slugs were fired into the surrounding door and walls of the jail?

[Elsie]

Coward Joe tried to escape, was rightfully shot, and fell out a window.

How'd he get past the BARS?

Itg was a JAIL - right?

[vladimir998]

Well, ‘prosaic’ would be a personal judgment - and a correct one in my opinion. When I’ve read passages in the BOM they certainly came across to me as dull and poorly...(ahem) ‘translated’.

[svcw]

You maybe correct but where did Smith get the guns? He was in jail.
There would not have been a gun battle if Smith had not had guns.

[svcw]

Good job with the spin. You said Republican Party. I would venture to say Smith aligned himself with any group or person who would benefit himself financially and tried to eliminate anyone in his way.

[Texan Tory]

“You are mentally unbalanced.”

And you’re the paragon of mental health. That’s nice.

[aMorePerfectUnion]

A great, but sad expose of the propensity of the mormon church to whitewash its history to make it seem pure and godly.

Joseph Smith was in jail directly because he pursued other mens’ wives and because he ruled like a tin pan dictator, running roughshod over the rights of US citizens.

He got frontier justice. He earned it.

The mormon church must whitewash every part of their history, including their horndog leader.

What is it? Heresy? Cultic? New religion? All religions in a blender?

The only thing we know is that it isn’t Christian.

And it’s sad.

ampu

[Godzilla]

You are mentally unbalanced.

How are you qualified to make such a statement

[NoRedTape]

"How'd he get past the BARS?

It was a JAIL - right?"

There were no bars in the room where Joey was kept, and where he and the others were boozin' it up. Guess Joe's seer-stone didn't tell him that karma was out to git him. Poor Joe; what a schlub. He shouldn't have gone against Christianity by creating his cult; shouldn't have had his daliances with other men's wives and shouldn't have ordered the Nauvoo Printing Press to be destroyed.
Karma is tough stuff to deal with.

http://www.mrm.org/death-of-joseph-smith

(story and photo from the link above).

[Religion Moderator]

Discuss the issues all you want, but do NOT make it personal.