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The 15 Marks of The Church
Aggie Catholics ^ | 5/13/2010

Posted on 05/13/2010 11:22:06 AM PDT by markomalley

Traditionally, there are 4 "Marks" of the Church. These 4 marks tell us about the character and nature of what the Church is. The Catechism describes them in this way:

811 "This is the sole Church of Christ, which in the Creed we profess to be one, holy, catholic and apostolic." These four characteristics, inseparably linked with each other, indicate essential features of the Church and her mission. The Church does not possess them of herself; it is Christ who, through the Holy Spirit, makes his Church one, holy, catholic, and apostolic, and it is he who calls her to realize each of these qualities.
So, the four marks are:
Yet, there are more "marks" that St. Robert Bellarmine came up with. He lived from 1542 - 1621 and he was a Cardinal, Bishop, and later made a Doctor of the Church. He lived during the time of many of the Protestant Reformers and thus, he was battling against some of the false understandings of the Church by coming up with these additional "marks".

Here are St. Robert Bellarmine's 15 Marks of the Church:
  1. Catholicity - the Church's name, Catholic, universal, and worldwide, and not confined to any particular nation or people
  2. Antiquity  - in tracing her ancestry directly to Jesus Christ
  3. Duration  - constant duration in lasting substantially unchanged for so many centuries
  4. Extensiveness - extensiveness in the number of her loyal members

  5. Episcopal Succession - episcopal succession of her bishops from the first Apostles at the Last Supper to the present hierarchy
  6. Doctrinal Agreement - doctrinal agreement of her doctrine with the teaching of the ancient Church
  7. Unity - union of her members among themselves and with their visible head the Roman Pontiff;
  8. Holiness - holiness of doctrine in reflecting the sanctity of God
  9. Efficacy - efficacy of doctrine in its power to sanctify believers and inspire t hem to great moral achievement

  10. Holiness of Life - holiness of life of the Church's representative writers and defenders
  11. Glory of Miracles - the glory of miracles worked in the Church and under the Church's auspices
  12. Prophetic - the gift of prophecy found among the Church's saints and spokesmen
  13. Opposition that the Church - the opposition that the Church arouses among those who attack her on the very grounds that Christ was opposed by his enemies
  14. Unhappy End - the unhappy end of those who fight against her

  15. Temporal Peace and Earthly Happiness - the temporal peace and earthly happiness of those who live by the Church's teaching and defend her interests


TOPICS: Catholic
KEYWORDS: catholic
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1 posted on 05/13/2010 11:22:07 AM PDT by markomalley
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To: markomalley

Excellent!


2 posted on 05/13/2010 11:24:11 AM PDT by frogjerk (I believe in unicorns, fairies and pro-life Democrats.)
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To: markomalley

The Marks of the Church:

The Sacraments

The Word of God, rightly divided and preached to the people of God.

- Martin Luther


3 posted on 05/13/2010 11:25:52 AM PDT by Cletus.D.Yokel (We were hoping for flying unicorns that crapped skittles. We got nationalized health care.)
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To: Cletus.D.Yokel

Excellent!


4 posted on 05/13/2010 11:30:24 AM PDT by Wallop the Cat
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To: markomalley

Any of these marks cover Visible (versus irrational, invisible church of the gazillion sects of Protestants, all disagreeing about everything)?


5 posted on 05/13/2010 11:31:17 AM PDT by Leoni
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To: Cletus.D.Yokel
Pitiful! AND Hollow

1) - What sacraments was Luther talking about?

re: The Word of God, rightly divided

2) - The Bible wasn't divided into chapters and verse till like the 14th century. So I guess that "mark" of Luther's church didn't exist for like 1400 years of Christianity. come to think of it, Luther, nor the false religion that he thought up in his head didn't exist either.

6 posted on 05/13/2010 11:46:22 AM PDT by Leoni
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To: markomalley

I was having trouble finding the part that justifies screwing little boys and covering it up, and then there it was #15.


7 posted on 05/13/2010 12:14:10 PM PDT by dirtymac (Now is the time for all good men to come to the aid of their country. Calling all Son's of Liberty)
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To: Leoni; papertyger

Here we’re talking about marks of Christ’s Church, and you have to say something negative about Christ-followers who happen not to be Roman Catholic.

Typical. Roman Catholic FReepers hate those who follow Christ, who don’t belong to their particular denomination.

Again, I wonder: Why such antagonism toward Christ-followers? Why such arrogance about your particular expression of Christ’s Church?


8 posted on 05/13/2010 12:27:25 PM PDT by Theo (May Rome decrease and Christ increase.)
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To: Leoni

You’re calling the Christ’s Church a “false religion”? How can you dismiss those who have repented and are following Christ and been adopted into His family? How can you label such Christians members of a “false religion”? Why such animosity toward Christ-followers who look a bit different from you?

Where’s the love, Leoni?

Seriously, why do you need to slam other Christians in order to prop up your own denomination? Who is Christ to you? Your Lord? Your Savior? He’s mine, too, and yet you say that following Christ is a “false religion”? Do you even think before you type?


9 posted on 05/13/2010 12:30:14 PM PDT by Theo (May Rome decrease and Christ increase.)
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To: markomalley

I like the 15 just as much as I like the four!

Too bad that ALL churches cannot brag about these marks or faith!


10 posted on 05/13/2010 5:52:06 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: markomalley
The 15 Marks of The Church [St. Robert Bellarmine]
Catholic Biblical Apologetics: The Marks of the Church, One, Holy, Catholic, Apostolic
Four Marks of the Church
One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic: The Marks of Christ's Church [Ecumenical]
11 posted on 05/13/2010 5:54:00 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Theo
re:You’re calling the Christ’s Church a “false religion”?

You are calling your false church Christ's Church. Only the Catholic Church is Christ's Church. Your church is whatever you interpret from the bible, it really is a church of one, you.

re:How can you label such Christians members of a “false religion”? Why such animosity toward Christ-followers who look a bit different from you?

No animosity at all, on the contrary, I do this out of charity, because I know that if you die outside of the Catholic Church you are going to hell. All religions outside of the Catholic faith are false, ALL, are just gates to perdition.

You are rigth in your accusation, however, if you were talking to a Catholic who erroneously believed that you could be saved in your religion, then there is no point in any Catholic trying to convert you, in other words, if EVERYONE that calls himself a Christian is on the same plane to heaven, and Catholics just think they are in 1st class, I consider it a waste of time to debate about the details of our differences

12 posted on 05/14/2010 7:12:16 PM PDT by Leoni
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To: Theo; markomalley
re:You’re calling the Christ’s Church a “false religion”?

You are calling your false church Christ's Church. Only the Catholic Church is Christ's Church. Your church is whatever you interpret from the bible, it really is a church of one, you.

re:How can you label such Christians members of a “false religion”? Why such animosity toward Christ-followers who look a bit different from you?

No animosity at all, on the contrary, I do this out of charity, because I know that if you die outside of the Catholic Church you are going to hell. All religions outside of the Catholic faith are false, ALL, are just gates to perdition.

You are right in your accusation, however, if you were talking to a Catholic who erroneously believed that you could be saved in your religion, then there is no point in any Catholic trying to convert you, in other words, if EVERYONE that calls himself a Christian is on the same plane to heaven, and Catholics just think they are in 1st class, I consider it a waste of time to debate about the details of our differences

13 posted on 05/14/2010 7:14:30 PM PDT by Leoni
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To: Leoni

So for you, Rome is your savior, not Christ.

I have to say, you defame Jesus.


14 posted on 05/14/2010 9:05:55 PM PDT by Theo (May Rome decrease and Christ increase.)
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To: Theo
re: So for you, Rome is your savior, not Christ. I have to say, you defame Jesus.,/p>

Straw man. No Catholic ever said "Rome is my savior, not Christ".

The Catholic Church is the Church of Christ, the ONLY earthly vehicle instituted by Christ and guided by the Holy Ghost to lead us in truth to salvation.

All other false churches were created by men like 1000+ years after Christ's death. They guide no one in any truth, they are always seeking truth, and never finding it. Each "Protestant" is a church of one, following their own whims, and then using a verse in scripture to comfort themselves (delude themselves).

One example: the use of contraceptives, always forbidden from the time of the creation of man, since the 1930's, the use of contraceptives are promoted by all Protestants sects, as almost a requirement. Only one Church stands against it, the Catholic Church. Divorce, abortion for the raped, female priests, and openly homosexual clergy, are all areas where all the Protestant sects have changed their "biblical interpretations"(in one or all cases).ONLY the Catholic Church stands unmoved in these teachings.

Martin Luther wrote 500 years ago:

"In matters of faith, to be sure, each Christian is for himself Pope and Church.” “There will be the greatest confusion. Nobody will allow himself to be led by another man’s doctrine or authority. Everyone will be his own rabbi: hence, the greatest scandals.”

“There are as many sects now and beliefs as there are heads. This fellow has nothing to do with baptism. Another one denies the sacraments. A third believes there is another world between this one and the last day. Some teach that Christ is not God. Some say this, some say that. There is no rustic so rude that if he dreams or fancies anything believes it must be the whisper of the Holy Spirit and that he himself must be a prophet.”

"If the world lasts, it will be necessary, on account of the differing interpretations of Scripture which now exist, that to preserve the unity of faith, we should receive the Catholic councils and decrees and fly to them for refuge."

15 posted on 05/15/2010 7:41:26 AM PDT by Leoni
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Comment #16 Removed by Moderator

To: Leoni

You, my pompous FRiend, said, “All other false churches were created by men like 1000+ years after Christ’s death.”

No, my Church traces itself back to Christ Himself. The body of people known as the Roman Catholic Church became apostate, heretical, blasphemous, idolatrous, adulterous, perverted — and as He’s done before, God called His remnant from among it. This remnant looks to Christ as her Savior and Lord, to God as her Father, to the Holy Spirit as her comforter and teacher. This remnant is His Church, the body of believers who’ve been adopted into His family.

Your church may look pretty, and its priests may wear some pretty snazzy clothing, and you may have some old traditions, but without Christ in His preeminent place among you, it is empty. God is not confined to your bureaucracy.

Man, I hate those who divide the Church of Christ, who defame Him by exalting their system above Him.


17 posted on 05/15/2010 8:24:25 AM PDT by Theo (May Rome decrease and Christ increase.)
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To: Theo
re:The body of people known as the Roman Catholic Church became apostate, heretical, blasphemous, idolatrous, adulterous, perverted — and as He’s done before, God called His remnant from among it.

What year exactly did that happen? Anyone can go to any secular encyclopedia and find the history of the Catholic Church, not one mentions your theory. What page is your theory?

18 posted on 05/16/2010 2:50:21 PM PDT by Leoni
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To: Theo
No, my Church traces itself back to Christ Himself.

I have no idea which it is, but unless it is Catholic, I think that it is colouring outside the lines. Or finger painting.

The body of people known as the Roman Catholic Church became apostate, heretical, blasphemous, idolatrous, adulterous, perverted — and as He’s done before, God called His remnant from among it.

I googled it up. Google laughs at this enquiry. As do I.

This remnant looks to Christ as her Savior and Lord, to God as her Father, to the Holy Spirit as her comforter and teacher. This remnant is His Church, the body of believers who’ve been adopted into His family.

This remnant of whom you speak. I assume that you count yourself among them. What pole barn do they currently hang out in?

God is not confined to your bureaucracy. Man, I hate those who divide the Church of Christ, who defame Him by exalting their system above Him.

Check out that mirror, my friend, when you say that.

19 posted on 05/16/2010 3:25:56 PM PDT by MarkBsnr ( I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: MarkBsnr; Leoni; annalex; Salvation

I propose a truce on this thread: You guys don’t demean the means through which the Lord has saved me and brought me into His family, and I won’t demean the means through which the Lord has saved you and brought you into His family.


20 posted on 05/16/2010 7:06:38 PM PDT by Theo (May Rome decrease and Christ increase.)
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To: Theo
I propose a truce on this thread

Why not, instead, revert to open and honest debate about particular or specific topics?

21 posted on 05/16/2010 7:43:01 PM PDT by MarkBsnr ( I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: MarkBsnr

My point is that we’re at an impasse. You consider my faith faulty because I trust in Christ apart from the Roman Catholic church. And I consider your faith faulty because of the extra requirements of allegiance to Rome and its extra-biblical doctrines. Perhaps peace is found in simply recognizing that Christ saves different people through different means, that what He said with his final breath on the cross is true.


22 posted on 05/16/2010 9:10:41 PM PDT by Theo (May Rome decrease and Christ increase.)
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To: Theo; kosta50; Kolokotronis; NYer
You consider my faith faulty because I trust in Christ apart from the Roman Catholic church.

If you say that, you have no clue as to my beliefs. My friend Kosta is Serbian Orthodox and I do not believe his faith faulty. My friend Kolo is Greek Orthodox and I do not believe his faith faulty. My friend NYer is Maronite and I do not find her faith faulty.

And I consider your faith faulty because of the extra requirements of allegiance to Rome and its extra-biblical doctrines.

I have no allegiance to Rome. I follow the Church. I despair at times of enlightening all those who would disparage the Church. I would that you guys would simply get it right as to the Church of Christ and not your comic book beliefs.

Perhaps peace is found in simply recognizing that Christ saves different people through different means, that what He said with his final breath on the cross is true.

Jesus spent three years in teaching His fledgling Church and the Holy Spirit commissioned it. Beyond that I dare not go, for the sake of my soul.

23 posted on 05/16/2010 9:17:15 PM PDT by MarkBsnr ( I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: MarkBsnr; Theo; Kolokotronis; NYer
[Theo to Mark:] You consider my faith faulty because I trust in Christ apart from the Roman Catholic church.

Theo, are you saying that all the "churches" in the first millennium that were outside the Church were professing an equally "orthodox" and true Christian faith?  If you are, then you are wrong because these "churches" taught things about God that are not really Christian.

So, there was but one Church that came out of the Apostolic succession, and that church defined the Holy trinity, Christology, Mairology and the Christian Bible .  Any Church that shares the same dogmatic beliefs of the undivided, apostolic catholic Church of the first millennium is by default a true Church, and there is none other, simply because there was no other. Now, are you suggesting that there was? If so, which "church?"

24 posted on 05/16/2010 10:15:13 PM PDT by kosta50 (The world is the way it is even if YOU don't understand it)
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To: kosta50

OK, you can consider me not a member of God’s family. That’s your right.

But God knows better.

Man, I hate the arrogance that emerges from those who consider their denomination the only legitimate one. I really do.

May Christ be exalted and may Rome diminish.


25 posted on 05/16/2010 10:18:46 PM PDT by Theo (May Rome decrease and Christ increase.)
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To: MarkBsnr
Beyond that I dare not go, for the sake of my soul

You're gone far, far beyond that, demeaning my faith in Jesus because I'm not a member of your denomination. You follow Peter. Other's follow Paul. I follow Christ.

I remain a member of Christ's church. And His church finds its home not in Rome, but in Heaven. His church consists of all those whom He has adopted, whether they defer to to Pope or not.

Done here. May Christ alone be praised. Christ alone, not Mary, not Rome, not your priests, not any of that. May Christ alone -- who alone suffered on the cross, who alone took on my sin, who alone is my mediator -- be praised.

Talk amongst yourselves, about how the Christ-follower is deceived because he trusts in Jesus as his Savior and Lord, and not in Rome.

26 posted on 05/16/2010 10:23:52 PM PDT by Theo (May Rome decrease and Christ increase.)
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To: Theo
For people like you, ignorance is bliss. You don't want to know anything past, that you are saved already. That's likely your only dogma/doctrine.

Whether people partake in impure touching, fornicate before marriage, shack up, marry civil only, divorce from a marriage before God, abort children conceived in a rape, watch immoral programs and movies like Desperate Housewives, watch pornography, go to strip clubs, go to the beach to look at the naked girls... IT”S ALL OK FOR THEM, there are “christians” and all going to heaven, they are really “good people”, after all, they never hurt anyone.

They despise the Catholic Church because it says otherwise. It tells them that they are living in sin, and must change, and CONFESS THEIR SINS TO A PRIEST. Hate & Fear of confession, and LOVE of all the sins above and more I didn't list, keep people from wanting to investigate ANYTHING which might force them to think.

That is the bottom line, a LOVE OF SIN, keeps them where they are.

27 posted on 05/17/2010 6:59:55 AM PDT by Leoni
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To: kosta50
Theo, are you saying that all the "churches" in the first millennium that were outside the Church were professing an equally "orthodox" and true Christian faith?

Marcion?

Nestor?

Arius?

28 posted on 05/17/2010 7:03:46 AM PDT by markomalley (Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus)
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To: Theo
OK, you can consider me not a member of God’s family. That’s your right

I make no such judgment Theo. Historically and factually, there is no other Christian Church.

29 posted on 05/17/2010 9:22:23 AM PDT by kosta50 (The world is the way it is even if YOU don't understand it)
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To: Leoni

You’re saying that I’m not Roman Catholic because I love my sin? Whew.

You’ve lost your senses, Leoni.


30 posted on 05/17/2010 9:24:47 AM PDT by Theo (May Rome decrease and Christ increase.)
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To: markomalley
Marcion? Nestor? Arius?

I am not sure what is the point of your reply, unless you misread/misinterpreted my statement. None of those you mention professed what the Church defined dogmatically as orthodox faith. As far as I know, outside the five patriarchates, no other Church existed.

31 posted on 05/17/2010 9:28:57 AM PDT by kosta50 (The world is the way it is even if YOU don't understand it)
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To: kosta50
I am not sure what is the point of your reply, unless you misread/misinterpreted my statement. None of those you mention professed what the Church defined dogmatically as orthodox faith. As far as I know, outside the five patriarchates, no other Church existed.

The point is that there have been heresies since the beginning. And I would wager that those who were caught up in those heresies were utterly convinced that they were practicing the orthodox Faith and that the Church had gone off the rails.

32 posted on 05/17/2010 9:32:51 AM PDT by markomalley (Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus)
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To: kosta50

And if I am intentionally not a member of the Roman Catholic Church, does that disqualify me from being a member of God’s family?


33 posted on 05/17/2010 9:46:58 AM PDT by Theo (May Rome decrease and Christ increase.)
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To: markomalley
The point is that there have been heresies since the beginning. And I would wager that those who were caught up in those heresies were utterly convinced that they were practicing the orthodox Faith and that the Church had gone off the rails

Historical facts show that one Church prevailed. There are many people who make Rollex watches, but there is only one genuine Rollex if you know what I mean. You will always have splinter groups vying for legitimacy. That doesn't mean that every pair of zealots or three stooges can claim to be the Church. That's not how things work.

34 posted on 05/17/2010 10:15:38 AM PDT by kosta50 (The world is the way it is even if YOU don't understand it)
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To: kosta50
Historical facts show that one Church prevailed. There are many people who make Rollex watches, but there is only one genuine Rollex if you know what I mean. You will always have splinter groups vying for legitimacy. That doesn't mean that every pair of zealots or three stooges can claim to be the Church. That's not how things work.

And it sounds like you and I are in agreement here!

35 posted on 05/17/2010 10:16:53 AM PDT by markomalley (Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus)
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To: markomalley
The differences between Protestants and Catholics demonstrated by the Five Solas of the Protestant Reformation:

Sola Scriptura

Scripture Alone, knowledge of salvation comes from the Bible alone; it teaches all that is necessary for salvation and holy living. Scripture is the final authority on all matters of doctrine and practice. This is contrasted with the Roman Catholic view of Papal or Magisterial infallibility. This doctrine is violated when any authority is placed alongside or over the Scriptures.

Sola Fide

Faith Alone, salvation is through faith alone. Faith is the only instrument through which the benefits of Christ’s atonement are applied. This is contrasted with the Roman Catholic view of faith and good works. This doctrine is violated when any other instrument becomes necessary for salvation.

Sola Gratia

Grace Alone, salvation is by grace alone. Salvation is entirely gracious. Sinners are saved without any merit in themselves. This is contrasted with the Roman Catholic view of cooperation and merit. This doctrine is violated when anything is added to or taken away from the unmerited favor of salvation.

Solus Christus

Christ Alone, salvation is in Christ alone. Christ is the exclusive author and mediator of salvation. This is contrasted with the Roman Catholic view of the intercession of saints and mediation of priests. This doctrine is violated when any man or institution is made necessary for salvation.

Soli Deo Gloria

To God Alone Be the Glory, salvation is to the glory of God alone. Salvation, from beginning to end is exclusively the work of God. Therefore, the credit and glory belong to God alone. This is contrasted with the Roman Catholic view that God and man cooperate in salvation, thus giving credit or glory to both God and man. This doctrine is violated when any merit, value, effort, credit or glory is ascribed to any other but God.

36 posted on 05/17/2010 10:22:54 AM PDT by Manic_Episode (Some mornings, it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps...)
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To: Theo
And if I am intentionally not a member of the Roman Catholic Church, does that disqualify me from being a member of God’s family?

I don't know. I was stating a historically verifiable fact that one Church existed (and it wasn't the "Roman" Catholic Church, but the catholc and aposotlic Church, both Latin and Greek), not whether you are saved or acceptable to God if you are not in it.

37 posted on 05/17/2010 10:23:20 AM PDT by kosta50 (The world is the way it is even if YOU don't understand it)
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To: markomalley
And it sounds like you and I are in agreement here!

Yes we do, because it's a historical fact, markomally.

38 posted on 05/17/2010 10:25:24 AM PDT by kosta50 (The world is the way it is even if YOU don't understand it)
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To: kosta50

Let me put it another way ...

Roman Catholic theologians define The Church as “a body of men united together by the profession of the same Christian Faith, and by participation in the same sacraments, under the governance of lawful pastors, more especially of the Roman Pontiff, the sole vicar of Christ on earth.”

If I do not place myself under the governance of the Roman Pontiff, does that disqualify me from being a member of the Christ’s Church (i.e., the communion of saints, the society founded by Our Lord Jesus Christ)?


39 posted on 05/17/2010 10:41:09 AM PDT by Theo (May Rome decrease and Christ increase.)
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To: Theo

All the sins that I mentioned, are sins of the flesh, and yes, people are not a Roman Catholics because they love the sins of the flesh.

Among adults there are few saved because of the sins of the flesh....With exception of those who die in childhood, most men will be damned. (St. Remigius of Rheims)

On the other hand, don’t mistake being a Catholic with automatic salvation. If baptized Catholics commit the same sins,and do not repent, change their ways, and confess their sins, they are damned too.

CATHOLICS NOT ASPIRING AND NOT LIVING AS SAINTS WILL GO TO HELL:

They who are enlightened to walk in the way of perfection, and through lukewarmness wish to tread the ordinary paths, shall be abandoned. (Bl. Angela of Foligno)

They who are to be saved as Saints, and wish to be saved as imperfect souls, shall not be saved. (Pope St. Gregory the Great)

MOST CATHOLIC PRIESTS GO TO HELL:
I do not speak rashly, but how I feel and think. I do not think that many priests are saved, but that those who perish are more numerous. ( St. John Chrysostom)


40 posted on 05/17/2010 1:01:07 PM PDT by Leoni
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To: Leoni

Whew. Thank God my Savior’s grace is greater by far than my sin.


41 posted on 05/17/2010 1:14:40 PM PDT by Theo (May Rome decrease and Christ increase.)
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To: Theo
Roman Catholic theologians define The Church as “a body of men united together by the profession of the same Christian Faith, and by participation in the same sacraments, under the governance of lawful pastors, more especially of the Roman Pontiff, the sole vicar of Christ on earth.”

If I do not place myself under the governance of the Roman Pontiff, does that disqualify me from being a member of the Christ’s Church (i.e., the communion of saints, the society founded by Our Lord Jesus Christ)?

UNDERSTAND THAT If you placed yourself "under the governance of the Roman Pontiff", and participated in the "profession of the same Christian Faith, and by participation in the same sacraments, BUT died with one mortal sin on your soul, you would not be saved.

Now, this "governance" needs further defining before we could say that you "disqualified from being a member of the Christ’s Church". If you outright reject the office of the pope,its authority, yes, you are outside of the Church and "disqualified" from being a member of the Christ’s Church".

Are you familiar with the SSPX? One could make the case that the SSPX are not "under the governance of lawful pastors, more especially of the Roman Pontiff", yet they LIVE their Catholic faith like few Catholics. They say they are united to ALL the popes, and owe their allegiance to the post Vatican II popes, but that they can not follow the current popes when they teach novelties (or ambigious teaching that appear to be novelties) never taught by the previous popes. In other words, they do not reject the office, the authority of the pope.

Venerable Pope Pius IX († 1878) recognised the danger that a pope could “teach contrary to the Catholic Faith”, and he instructed, “do not follow him.”

“If a future pope teaches anything contrary to the Catholic Faith, do not follow him.” (Letter to Bishop Brizen)

42 posted on 05/17/2010 1:48:22 PM PDT by Leoni
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To: Theo
Whew. Thank God my Savior’s grace is greater by far than my sin.

In other words, you are saying that thank God that you are aready saved, even though you live in sin.

Like I said before, for people like you, ignorance is bliss. You don't want to know anything past that you are saved already. That's likely your only dogma/doctrine.

43 posted on 05/17/2010 1:52:45 PM PDT by Leoni
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To: Leoni
Let's get to where the rubber meets the road, LIVING the faith (by their deeds you shall know them):

Do you believe that:

Whether people partake in impure touching, fornicate before marriage, shack up, marry civil only, divorce from a marriage before God, abort children conceived in a rape, watch immoral programs and movies like Desperate Housewives, watch pornography, go to strip clubs, go to the beach to look at the naked girls... IT”S ALL OK FOR THEM, if are Christians, they are all saved?

44 posted on 05/17/2010 1:59:53 PM PDT by Leoni
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To: Leoni
Let's get to where the rubber meets the road, LIVING the faith (by their deeds you shall know them):

Do you believe that, whether people partake in impure touching, fornicate before marriage, shack up, marry civil only, divorce from a marriage before God, abort children conceived in a rape, watch immoral programs and movies like Desperate Housewives, watch pornography, go to strip clubs, go to the beach to look at the naked girls... IT”S ALL OK FOR THEM, if they are Christians, they are all saved?

45 posted on 05/17/2010 2:02:36 PM PDT by Leoni
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To: Leoni

Yes, I am a sinner, in daily need of grace. I am not ignorant; I am grateful to the Savior daily ... saves.

Of course I am concerned about doctrine. Why do you demean me so much? You are just so nasty, Leoni, to speak so poorly about me. Let me ask you: Are you resigned to going to hell, or have you attained a state of sinlessness?


46 posted on 05/17/2010 2:03:26 PM PDT by Theo (May Rome decrease and Christ increase.)
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To: Theo
Roman Catholic theologians define The Church as “a body of men united together by the profession of the same Christian Faith, and by participation in the same sacraments, under the governance of lawful pastors, more especially of the Roman Pontiff, the sole vicar of Christ on earth.”

Theo, that is not the definition of the Church. That is something the Latins invented. The catholic Church is where the Eucharist is, and the Eucharist is where a bishop is; a bishop being someone who gets his authority in direct succession from the apostles.

Now, you may disagree with this, but this is what the catholic Church believed and professed as early as 105 AD (based on the epistles of St. Ignatius).

If I do not place myself under the governance of the Roman Pontiff, does that disqualify me from being a member of the Christ’s Church (i.e., the communion of saints, the society founded by Our Lord Jesus Christ)?

Theo, apparently you don't know much about the Church. Salvation is not in the Church. The Church is where you salvation is believed more likely to happen then going at it alone. Also, your concept of what salvation is has a great deal to do with where you look for it.

In the Eastern tradition of Christianity, salvation is not a juridical concept (justification), but one of restoration to the likeness of God (become Christ-like) which was lost by the Fall.

This restoration is made possible by grace, through repentance (permanent change) in one's thinking, and doing (theosis) in cooperation with the Holy Spirit, and following his lead. This effort is sustained though sacraments (spiritual food) which nourishes our spirit to persevere.

God can save anyone he wants, technically speaking, but one's chances are believed greatly enhanced by participating in the life of the Church, where out tendencies to stray are more likely to be corrected, for, as the Bible says, "narrow is the path."

none of the eastern Churches recognizes the Pope as the Vicar of Christ on earth, yet they are as catholic and as valid as the Latin Church because they all have bishops whose authority is based on apostolic succession, they all have valid sacraments, and valid priesthood.

Even Rome recognizes that Eastern Churches are 'real churches' even though the lack the fullness from not being ion communion with the Pope. And the Eastern churches say that the Latin Church lacks equally the fullness of being in communion with a significant number of her sister Churches. The Church is deficient in that it exists as two disunited "lungs," but the catholic Church exists in its fullness in any local church wherever a valid Eucharist is offered under a valid bishop.

47 posted on 05/17/2010 3:01:08 PM PDT by kosta50 (The world is the way it is even if YOU don't understand it)
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To: kosta50; Theo
So, there was but one Church that came out of the Apostolic succession, and that church defined the Holy trinity, Christology, Mairology and the Christian Bible . Any Church that shares the same dogmatic beliefs of the undivided, apostolic catholic Church of the first millennium is by default a true Church, and there is none other, simply because there was no other. Now, are you suggesting that there was? If so, which "church?"

Very well said, Kosta. There is one Church.

48 posted on 05/17/2010 5:16:42 PM PDT by MarkBsnr ( I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: Theo
May Christ be exalted and may Rome diminish.

Why are you so hung up on Rome? Rome is not an issue.

49 posted on 05/17/2010 5:17:43 PM PDT by MarkBsnr ( I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: Theo
You're gone far, far beyond that, demeaning my faith in Jesus because I'm not a member of your denomination.

I have not demeaned your faith in Jesus because I have no clue as to your understanding of Jesus. The doctrines of the Church and its Christology are pretty clear. What you, as a member of whatever denomination or non denominational, happen to be believe at this moment in time, are subject to change. Radical change, if you follow the children of the Reformation. And; I do not have a denomination. There is only one Church.

I remain a member of Christ's church.

How do you know?

His church finds its home not in Rome, but in Heaven.

The Head of the Church is Jesus, of course. Scripture is clear; He has made the Apostles the stewards of the Church. Peter was given the first keys; he is called primus inter pares - first among equals. But equals the bishops are. Other than being individual men, is there any difference between Patriarch Kirill and Pope Benedict? Different jurisdictions. Russia versus the West. Very roughly speaking, of course.

Talk amongst yourselves, about how the Christ-follower is deceived because he trusts in Jesus as his Savior and Lord, and not in Rome.

You are just so hung up on Rome in your posts. Read some Church history for a better understanding.

50 posted on 05/17/2010 5:24:28 PM PDT by MarkBsnr ( I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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