Posted on 05/13/2010 11:22:06 AM PDT by markomalley
Traditionally, there are 4 "Marks" of the Church. These 4 marks tell us about the character and nature of what the Church is. The Catechism describes them in this way:
811 "This is the sole Church of Christ, which in the Creed we profess to be one, holy, catholic and apostolic." These four characteristics, inseparably linked with each other, indicate essential features of the Church and her mission. The Church does not possess them of herself; it is Christ who, through the Holy Spirit, makes his Church one, holy, catholic, and apostolic, and it is he who calls her to realize each of these qualities.
Why not, instead, revert to open and honest debate about particular or specific topics?
My point is that we’re at an impasse. You consider my faith faulty because I trust in Christ apart from the Roman Catholic church. And I consider your faith faulty because of the extra requirements of allegiance to Rome and its extra-biblical doctrines. Perhaps peace is found in simply recognizing that Christ saves different people through different means, that what He said with his final breath on the cross is true.
If you say that, you have no clue as to my beliefs. My friend Kosta is Serbian Orthodox and I do not believe his faith faulty. My friend Kolo is Greek Orthodox and I do not believe his faith faulty. My friend NYer is Maronite and I do not find her faith faulty.
And I consider your faith faulty because of the extra requirements of allegiance to Rome and its extra-biblical doctrines.
I have no allegiance to Rome. I follow the Church. I despair at times of enlightening all those who would disparage the Church. I would that you guys would simply get it right as to the Church of Christ and not your comic book beliefs.
Perhaps peace is found in simply recognizing that Christ saves different people through different means, that what He said with his final breath on the cross is true.
Jesus spent three years in teaching His fledgling Church and the Holy Spirit commissioned it. Beyond that I dare not go, for the sake of my soul.
Theo, are you saying that all the "churches" in the first millennium that were outside the Church were professing an equally "orthodox" and true Christian faith? If you are, then you are wrong because these "churches" taught things about God that are not really Christian.
So, there was but one Church that came out of the Apostolic succession, and that church defined the Holy trinity, Christology, Mairology and the Christian Bible . Any Church that shares the same dogmatic beliefs of the undivided, apostolic catholic Church of the first millennium is by default a true Church, and there is none other, simply because there was no other. Now, are you suggesting that there was? If so, which "church?"
OK, you can consider me not a member of God’s family. That’s your right.
But God knows better.
Man, I hate the arrogance that emerges from those who consider their denomination the only legitimate one. I really do.
May Christ be exalted and may Rome diminish.
You're gone far, far beyond that, demeaning my faith in Jesus because I'm not a member of your denomination. You follow Peter. Other's follow Paul. I follow Christ.
I remain a member of Christ's church. And His church finds its home not in Rome, but in Heaven. His church consists of all those whom He has adopted, whether they defer to to Pope or not.
Done here. May Christ alone be praised. Christ alone, not Mary, not Rome, not your priests, not any of that. May Christ alone -- who alone suffered on the cross, who alone took on my sin, who alone is my mediator -- be praised.
Talk amongst yourselves, about how the Christ-follower is deceived because he trusts in Jesus as his Savior and Lord, and not in Rome.
Whether people partake in impure touching, fornicate before marriage, shack up, marry civil only, divorce from a marriage before God, abort children conceived in a rape, watch immoral programs and movies like Desperate Housewives, watch pornography, go to strip clubs, go to the beach to look at the naked girls... IT”S ALL OK FOR THEM, there are “christians” and all going to heaven, they are really “good people”, after all, they never hurt anyone.
They despise the Catholic Church because it says otherwise. It tells them that they are living in sin, and must change, and CONFESS THEIR SINS TO A PRIEST. Hate & Fear of confession, and LOVE of all the sins above and more I didn't list, keep people from wanting to investigate ANYTHING which might force them to think.
That is the bottom line, a LOVE OF SIN, keeps them where they are.
Marcion?
Nestor?
Arius?
I make no such judgment Theo. Historically and factually, there is no other Christian Church.
You’re saying that I’m not Roman Catholic because I love my sin? Whew.
You’ve lost your senses, Leoni.
I am not sure what is the point of your reply, unless you misread/misinterpreted my statement. None of those you mention professed what the Church defined dogmatically as orthodox faith. As far as I know, outside the five patriarchates, no other Church existed.
The point is that there have been heresies since the beginning. And I would wager that those who were caught up in those heresies were utterly convinced that they were practicing the orthodox Faith and that the Church had gone off the rails.
And if I am intentionally not a member of the Roman Catholic Church, does that disqualify me from being a member of God’s family?
Historical facts show that one Church prevailed. There are many people who make Rollex watches, but there is only one genuine Rollex if you know what I mean. You will always have splinter groups vying for legitimacy. That doesn't mean that every pair of zealots or three stooges can claim to be the Church. That's not how things work.
And it sounds like you and I are in agreement here!
Sola Scriptura
Scripture Alone, knowledge of salvation comes from the Bible alone; it teaches all that is necessary for salvation and holy living. Scripture is the final authority on all matters of doctrine and practice. This is contrasted with the Roman Catholic view of Papal or Magisterial infallibility. This doctrine is violated when any authority is placed alongside or over the Scriptures.
Sola Fide
Faith Alone, salvation is through faith alone. Faith is the only instrument through which the benefits of Christ’s atonement are applied. This is contrasted with the Roman Catholic view of faith and good works. This doctrine is violated when any other instrument becomes necessary for salvation.
Sola Gratia
Grace Alone, salvation is by grace alone. Salvation is entirely gracious. Sinners are saved without any merit in themselves. This is contrasted with the Roman Catholic view of cooperation and merit. This doctrine is violated when anything is added to or taken away from the unmerited favor of salvation.
Solus Christus
Christ Alone, salvation is in Christ alone. Christ is the exclusive author and mediator of salvation. This is contrasted with the Roman Catholic view of the intercession of saints and mediation of priests. This doctrine is violated when any man or institution is made necessary for salvation.
Soli Deo Gloria
To God Alone Be the Glory, salvation is to the glory of God alone. Salvation, from beginning to end is exclusively the work of God. Therefore, the credit and glory belong to God alone. This is contrasted with the Roman Catholic view that God and man cooperate in salvation, thus giving credit or glory to both God and man. This doctrine is violated when any merit, value, effort, credit or glory is ascribed to any other but God.
I don't know. I was stating a historically verifiable fact that one Church existed (and it wasn't the "Roman" Catholic Church, but the catholc and aposotlic Church, both Latin and Greek), not whether you are saved or acceptable to God if you are not in it.
Yes we do, because it's a historical fact, markomally.
Let me put it another way ...
Roman Catholic theologians define The Church as “a body of men united together by the profession of the same Christian Faith, and by participation in the same sacraments, under the governance of lawful pastors, more especially of the Roman Pontiff, the sole vicar of Christ on earth.”
If I do not place myself under the governance of the Roman Pontiff, does that disqualify me from being a member of the Christ’s Church (i.e., the communion of saints, the society founded by Our Lord Jesus Christ)?
All the sins that I mentioned, are sins of the flesh, and yes, people are not a Roman Catholics because they love the sins of the flesh.
Among adults there are few saved because of the sins of the flesh....With exception of those who die in childhood, most men will be damned. (St. Remigius of Rheims)
On the other hand, don’t mistake being a Catholic with automatic salvation. If baptized Catholics commit the same sins,and do not repent, change their ways, and confess their sins, they are damned too.
CATHOLICS NOT ASPIRING AND NOT LIVING AS SAINTS WILL GO TO HELL:
They who are enlightened to walk in the way of perfection, and through lukewarmness wish to tread the ordinary paths, shall be abandoned. (Bl. Angela of Foligno)
They who are to be saved as Saints, and wish to be saved as imperfect souls, shall not be saved. (Pope St. Gregory the Great)
MOST CATHOLIC PRIESTS GO TO HELL:
I do not speak rashly, but how I feel and think. I do not think that many priests are saved, but that those who perish are more numerous. ( St. John Chrysostom)
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