Hoping and Praying for Gog and Magog to Attack

American Vision ^ | June 7, 2010 | Gary DeMar

[topcat54]

I knew it would happen. The latest incident in Israel has brought out the prophetic speculators again. “A council of rabbis in Israel says their nation’s conflict with Turkey over a flotilla of ‘aid’ ships headed for the blockaded Gaza Strip controlled by the terrorist Hamas organization just may be the beginning of the ‘Gog and Magog process where the world is against us, but which ends with the third and final redemption’” (see here ). Picking up on the story, Christian prophecy speculator Joel Rosenberg takes a similar position but with some caution:

There is growing interest in the Ezekiel prophecies and whether they could play out in our lifetime. I believe it is still too early to say anything definitively. But I agree that current events are strikingly consistent with the prophecies and I believe it is possible that we could see these events unfold soon. The mention of “Gomer” in Ezekiel, for example, refers to the modern-day State of Turkey which will be an enemy of Israel and part of a Russian-Iranian alliance against the Jewish state. I’m not saying the prophecy will necessarily come to pass soon, but I can’t rule out that possibility. We’ve never seen a convergence of geopolitical and spiritual events so consistent with Ezekiel 38–39 in history like we are seeing today (see here ).

One of the arguments used to futurize Ezekiel’s prophecy 2600 years from the time it was written is the claim that the Hebrew word rosh in Ezekiel 38:2–3 and 39:1 sounds like Russia. So then why doesn’t “Gomer” sound like some modern-day nation? Why Turkey? If God wanted to identify Turkey 2600 years ago, then why didn’t He use some sound-alike word that would identify modern Turkey? The same is true of the other nations listed in Ezekiel.

There is no need to speculate beyond the historical boundaries of Ezekiel’s day to force the names of these ancient nations to find a place on a modern-day map and conform to today’s geo-political landscape. Iain Duguid’s comments are helpful in accounting for the historical realities of Ezekiel’s prophecy:

[Gog] is the commander-in-chief ([ chief prince]) of a coalition of forces gathered from the ends of the earth. He himself is from the land of Magog, and he rules over Meshech-Tubal. His allies include Persia, Cush, and Put (38:5), along with Gomer and Beth Togarmah (38:6). It is no coincidence that together these make up a total of seven nations, and it is significant that they are gathered from the uttermost parts of the known world to the prophet. Meshech-Tubal, Gomer, and Beth Togarmah come from the North, Put (Northwest Egypt) and Cush (southern Egypt) from the south and west, while Persia is to the east of Judah.[1]

Ezekiel was given a revelation that was describing his world. You don’t have to be a biblical scholar to figure this out. The people making up these nations were alive and well and living in proximity to Israel in Ezekiel’s day. There is no question about this claim. There is no way to refute it. To maintain that the nations that attack Israel are nations in our day is not allowing the Bible to speak for itself. “To seek the fulfillment in the dark region of the end of the days,” Ernest Hengstenberg (1802–1868) writes, “is the less possible, because most of the nations named either no longer exist, or are no longer heathen. Magog, Gomer, Meshech and Tubal, Phut, Sheba, and Dedan, are no more to be found”[2] on any modern map.

If the battle described in Ezekiel 38–39 does not refer to modern-day nations that will attack Israel, then when and where in biblical history did this conflict take place? Instead of looking to the distant future or finding fulfillment in a historical setting outside the Bible where we are dependent on unreliable secular sources, James B. Jordan believes that “it is in [the book of] Esther that we see a conspiracy to plunder the Jews, which backfires with the result that the Jews plundered their enemies. This event is then ceremonially sealed with the institution of the annual Feast of Purim.”[3] Jordan continues by establishing the context for Ezekiel 38 and 39:

Ezekiel describes the attack of Gog, Prince of Magog, and his confederates. Ezekiel states that people from all over the world attack God’s people, who are pictured dwelling at peace in the land. God’s people will completely defeat them, however, and the spoils will be immense. The result is that all nations will see the victory, and “the house of Israel will know that I am the Lord their God from that day onward” (Ezek. 39:21–23). . . . Chronologically this all fits very nicely. The events of Esther took place during the reign of Darius, after the initial rebuilding of the Temple under Joshua [the High Priest] and Zerubbabel and shortly before rebuilding of the walls by Nehemiah. . . . Thus, the interpretive hypothesis I am suggesting (until someone shoots it down) is this: Ezekiel 34–37 describes the first return of the exiles under Zerubbabel, and implies the initial rebuilding of the physical Temple. Ezekiel 38–39 describes the attack of Gog (Haman) and his confederates against the Jews. Finally, Ezekiel 40–48 describes in figurative language the situation as a result of the work of Nehemiah.[4]

Ezekiel 38:5–6 tells us that Israel’s enemies come from “Persia, Cush, and . . . from the remote parts of the north. . . ,” all within the boundaries of the Persian Empire of Esther’s day. From Esther we learn that the Persian Empire “extended from India to Cush, 127 provinces. . .” in all (Esther 8:9). Ethiopia (Cush) and Persia are listed in Esther 1:1 and 3 and are also found in Ezekiel 38:5. The other nations were in the geographical boundaries “from India to Ethiopia” in the “127 provinces” over which Ahasueras ruled (Esther 1:1). “In other words, the explicit idea that the Jews were attacked by people from all the provinces of Persia is in both passages,”[5] and the nations listed by Ezekiel were part of the Persian empire of his day. The parallels are unmistakable (There are many more parallels that can be found in my book Why the End of the World is Not in Your Future .) Even Ezekiel’s statement that the fulfillment of the prophecy takes place in a time when there are “unwalled villages” (Ezek. 38:11) is not an indication of a distant future fulfillment as Grant Jeffrey attempts to argue:

It is interesting to note that during the lifetime of Ezekiel and up until 1900, virtually all of the villages and cities in the Middle East had walls for defense. Ezekiel had never seen a village or city without defensive walls. Yet, in our day, Israel is a “land of unwalled villages” for the simple reason that modern techniques of warfare (bombs and missiles) make city walls irrelevant for defense. This is one more indication that his prophecy refers to our modern generation.

* * * * *

Ezekiel’s reference to “dwell safely” and “without walls . . . neither bars nor gates” refers precisely to Israel’s current military situation, where she is dwelling safely because of her strong armed defense and where her cities and villages have no walls or defensive bars. The prophet had never seen a city without walls, so he was astonished when he saw, in a vision, Israel dwelling in the future without walls. Ezekiel lived in a time when every city in the world used huge walls for military defense.[6]

In Esther we learn that there were Jews who were living peacefully in “unwalled towns” (KJV) (9:19) when Haman conspired against them. Israel’s antagonists in Ezekiel are said to “go up against the land of unwalled villages” (Ezek. 38:11). The Hebrew word perazah is used in Esther 9:19 and Ezekiel 38:11. This fits the conditions of Esther’s day. Jeffrey is mistaken in his assertion that “Ezekiel had never seen a village or city without defensive walls.” They seemed to be quite common outside the main cities. Moreover, his contention that Israel is currently “dwelling safely because of her strong armed defense” is patently untrue. Since 2006, the Israeli government has built more than 435 miles of walls in Israel.

There are many more parallels between Ezekiel 38–39 and Esther, Ezra, and Nehemiah. I had one emailer argue with me over the above summary interpretation. He fed me all the standard end-time arguments that are popular with interpretations of Ezekiel 38–39. When I told him to purchase my book Why the End of the World is Not in Your Future and offer a detailed response, he wrote the following: “I’m not buying prophecy books just now, but I will accept a complimentary copy for review.” This is a person who is not serious about Bible study. He’s afraid of what he will find. He wanted to know if I belonged to the “Allegorism school of interpretation” that dismisses a literal interpretation. As I show in my book, I am very literal. I don’t turn horses into “horsepower, bows and arrows into “launching pads” and “missiles,” or chariots into tanks. When the text says “to carry away silver and gold, to take away cattle and goods” (Ezek. 38:13), it means silver, gold, cattle, and goods (Ezra 1:4) and not natural gas, potash, or oil.

He and many others like him have adopted a system of interpretation that locks him into a theology of irrelevance. Here is his final comment to me: “Things are winding up very rapidly these days.” Yes they are. We are witnessing the end of humanism. Either get on board to make it happen through the preaching of the gospel, applying the Bible to every area of life, and building an alternative society when the inevitable collapse comes or get out of the way. There won’t be a “rapture” to rescue you. Deal with it.

Endnotes:

1. Iain M. Duguid, Ezekiel: The NIV Application Commentary (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 1999), 448.
2. E. W. Hengstenberg, The Prophecies of the Prophet Ezekiel Elucidated, trans. A. C. Murphy and J. G. Murphy (Edinburgh: T. & T. Clark, 1869), 331.
3. James B. Jordan, Esther in the Midst of Covenant History (Niceville, FL: Biblical Horizons, 1995), 5.
4. Jordan, Esther in the Midst of Covenant History, 7.
5. Jordan, Esther in the Midst of Covenant History, 7.
6. Grant R. Jeffrey, The Next World War: What Prophecy Reveals About Extreme Islam and the West (Colorado Springs, CO: WaterBrook Press, 2006), 143, 147–148.

Gary is a graduate of Western Michigan University (1973) and earned his M.Div. at Reformed Theological Seminary in 1979. In 2007, he earned his Ph.D. in Christian Intellectual History from Whitefield Theological Seminary. Author of countless essays, news articles, and more than 27 book titles, he also hosts The Gary DeMar Show, and History Unwrapped—both broadcasted and podcasted. Gary has lived in the Atlanta area since 1979 with his wife, Carol. They have two married sons and are enjoying being grandparents to their grandson. Gary and Carol are members of Midway Presbyterian Church (PCA).

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Permission to reprint granted by American Vision, P.O. Box 220, Powder Springs, GA 30127, 800-628-9460.

[Maverick68]

bump

[LibertyRocks]

You should read my response, roamer_1 — it’s at post #40 — if you haven’t already...

I guess I didn’t explain myself clearly at all. And, perhaps my fears that this isn’t what we should be praying are unfounded anyway. A little egotistical of me perhaps to assume I understood, or presumed to ‘warn’ others?

All in all, I AGREE with the prophecies, and understand that the Lord gave us these things to be able to tell the ‘season’ of his return. I agree that the events in our world - especially in the recent months are sobering indeed.

I also suppose that to say what I said on this thread, given the OP’s POV - which I do NOT agree with - was perhaps a bad idea... LOL

[Quix]

I think you’re wayyy to hard on yourself.

You had fitting worthy points to share.

thx.

[LibertyRocks]

I understand, thanks for the reply. I looked and couldn’t even recall where the passage was that I remembered reading. I do recall the scripture you are talking about where it says, ‘even so, come quickly, Lord Jesus’. I really should just let God interpret others’ meanings in their prayers. Such a touchy subject is all of this...

Most of all, I didn’t mean to appear to be supporting the author’s notions that everything has ‘already passed’. I certainly do NOT believe that! LOL

Anyway, thanks for the reply. I think I should have perhaps stayed in bed yesterday because even in my own house people weren’t understanding what I tried to explain (on various different subjects)! LOL Oh well... :)

[LibertyRocks]

LOL — You’re right about being too hard on myself, as you know! :)
Thank you for the reminder!

[Lee N. Field]

Nuts. I've done that twice in nine years on FR. You'd think my mistake could go unnoticed at least once.

But noooo.ock

Calvary. Calvary. Calvary. (I have relatives in Calgary - my only defense.)

Calvary. Calvary. Calvary...

Cavalry, Cavalry, Cavalry....

[Lee N. Field]

Thanks for catching that. I missed that in brief perusal.

They tripped a few of my filters, right on the home page. Fortunately (unlike many), they put their statement of belief right up front.

[Lee N. Field]

cultism sorts of things. Y’all are likely much more experts on such things than I am.

Know the good well, to be able to detect the bad.

[Lee N. Field]

then the “cult” label is automatically thrown out most derisively.

Non-trinitarians are beyond the pale. Period.

[Lee N. Field]

I do not know if God is done with Israel and you don't either.

Did God's covenant with Abraham have a expiration date?

I know some dispensationalists go into a frothing rage over it, but we, Christians, are heirs of Abraham. So, the answer is "no".

[Lee N. Field]

Pink is not sound.

In what way? I've read very little of A. W. Pink, and not for a long, long time.

[xzins]

I agree with the point about not posting long, long, thread-of-their-own-worthy comments.

Quix: you’re a friend, but it did make it hard to scroll through this thread past all those long copy/pastes.

I think it would be better to either post the link or post a short, most relevant part of another article + the link.

So far as Gog/Magog, it strikes me that everyone (DeMar included) has demonstrated that they don’t yet know the answer.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

lol. You devil, you.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

First, HERE is a nifty little history and critique of dispensationalism which began in England around 1830 and drifted to the U.S. by 1870, no so coincidentally coinciding with the rise of spiritualism in this country.

It also coincides with the advent of the industrial age and its emphasis on oil. What better way to ensure our interests in Middle Eastern oil fields than to surround that area with a religious aura of significance?

Geopolitics crept in and many people were unaware.

Additionally, what better way to destroy Christian particularism than to say faith in Christ is a requirement for all...but not quite all. Not now.

This assertion undermines the Scriptural mandate to believe the Gospel THIS VERY DAY because none of us knows the time of either our death or Christ's return.

So it's a two-fer for those who work against the Gospel of grace.

But as I said earlier, this is not a salvation issue. It's more a parlor game; it's a guess. Some guesses are better than others; some guesses actually work against the word of God. But they are just guesses. All of them. And we are cautioned in Scripture to "avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain." (Titus 3:9)

Suffice it to know that all believing Jews and all believing Gentiles are "all one in Christ Jesus."

And so we preach Christ risen to all men, confident all those who are His, at a time of His choosing, will hear the truth, love the truth and believe the truth to the saving of their eternal souls.

Here's a good book which addresses all the perspectives, with an emphasis on amillennialism...

A CASE FOR AMILLENNIALISM
UNDERSTANDING THE END TIMES

And of course, extolling the Scriptural assurance of the Gospel's success in this world, here's another very good book explaining the postmillennial perspective...

POSTMILLENNIALISM
ESCATOLOGY OF HOPE

And finally, as final support for this pov, I think dispensationalists tend to be aggressively one-sided which is not quite the case with the amils and postmils. Check out postmil Lorraine Boettner's elegant short discussion of the primary schools of thought. He not only presents the postmil position, but he also says positive things about and offers books detailing premillennialism and dispensationalism.

Postmillennialism: Representative Theologians

[GiovannaNicoletta]

Well, I don't know exactly what a dispensationalist is

Here is the truth about dispensationalists and what they believe:

Dispensationalism is a system of theology that has two primary distinctives. 1) A consistently literal interpretation of Scripture, especially Bible prophecy. 2) A distinction between Israel and the church in God's program.

Dispensationalists claim that their principle of hermeneutics is that of literal interpretation, which means giving each word the meaning it would commonly have in everyday usage. Symbols, figures of speech and types are all interpreted plainly in this method, and this is in no way contrary to literal interpretation. Even symbols and figurative sayings have literal meanings behind them.

There are at least three reasons why this is the best way to view Scripture. First, philosophically, the purpose of language itself seems to require that we interpret it literally. Language was given by God for the purpose of being able to communicate with man. The second reason is biblical. Every prophecy about Jesus Christ in the Old Testament was fulfilled literally. Jesus' birth, Jesus' ministry, Jesus' death, and Jesus' resurrection all occurred exactly and literally as the Old Testament predicted. There is no non-literal fulfillment of these prophecies in the New Testament. This argues strongly for the literal method. If literal interpretation is not used in studying the Scriptures, there is no objective standard by which to understand the Bible. Each and every person would be able to interpret the Bible as he saw fit. Biblical interpretation would devolve into “what this passage says to me...” instead of “the Bible says...” Sadly, this is already the case in much of what is called biblical interpretation today.

Dispensational theology teaches that there are two distinct peoples of God: Israel and the church. Dispensationalists believe that salvation has always been by faith—in God in the Old Testament and specifically in God the Son in the New Testament. Dispensationalists hold that the church has not replaced Israel in God’s program and the Old Testament promises to Israel have not been transferred to the church. They believe that the promises God made to Israel (for land, many descendants, and blessings) in the Old Testament will be ultimately fulfilled in the 1000-year period spoken of in Revelation chapter 20.

Dispensationalists believe that just as God is in this age focusing His attention on the church, He will again in the future focus His attention on Israel (Romans 9-11).

Using this system as a basis, dispensationalists understand the Bible to be organized into seven dispensations: Innocence (Genesis 1:1–3:7), conscience (Genesis 3:8–8:22), human government (Genesis 9:1–11:32), promise (Genesis 12:1–Exodus 19:25), law (Exodus 20:1–Acts 2:4), grace (Acts 2:4–Revelation 20:3), and the millennial kingdom (Revelation 20:4-6). Again, these dispensations are not paths to salvation, but manners in which God relates to man.

Dispensationalism, as a system, results in a premillennial interpretation of Christ’s second coming and usually a pretribulational interpretation of the rapture. To summarize, dispensationalism is a theological system that emphasizes the literal interpretation of Bible prophecy, recognizes a clear distinction between Israel and the church, and organizes the Bible into the different dispensations it presents.

Just to counteract any flawed, biased "explanations" you may be treated to.

[GiovannaNicoletta]

Remember, the Tribulation period begins with a "man of peace", the Antichrist, confirming a seven-year peace treaty between Israel and the nations.

That did not happen in 70AD. It is a future event.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

But the fact that some 30% of the Bible pertains to prophecy

If you say so. And most of that prophecy was fulfilled with the coming of Jesus Christ.

Here's a handy chart detailing the distinctions...

COVENANT THEOLOGY vs. DISPENSATIONAL THEOLOGY

I fall to the right. Whole-heartedly.

[kevao]

Wow, Giovanna, thanks for a most excellent reply! I guess I’ve always been a dispensationalist and just never knew it.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

I guess I’ve always been a dispensationalist and just never knew it.

lol. You're perfectly within your right to make that statement.

[GiovannaNicoletta]

All it takes is simply believing what God has told us and simply taking Him at His word. That's all, and it's worked pretty well for millions of people! That's why none of us are surprised or upset about the headlines every day. We know about it already. And we know who wins the war in the end.

Oh, and not trashing any Scripture that nukes your belief system. That's extremely important!!