Posted on 07/02/2010 4:43:38 AM PDT by GiovannaNicoletta
Well known and admired 108 year old Rabbi reveals the Messiah's name!
"Not *all* the stones are removed, "one upon another." *Seven* courses remain"
Not according to someone who actually witnessed the destruction of Jerusalem:
"And now the Romans set fire to the extreme parts of the city, and burnt them down, and entirely demolished its walls.
"Now as soon as the army had no more people to slay or to plunder, because there remained none to be the objects of their fury, (for they would not have spared any, had there remained any other work to be done,) Caesar gave orders that they should now demolish the entire city and temple, but should leave as many of the towers standing as were of the greatest eminency; that is, Phasaelus, and Hippicus, and Mariamne; and so much of the wall as enclosed the city on the west side. This wall was spared, in order to afford a camp for such as were to lie in garrison, as were the towers also spared, in order to demonstrate to posterity what kind of city it was, and how well fortified, which the Roman valor had subdued; but for all the rest of the wall, it was so thoroughly laid even with the ground by those that dug it up to the foundation, that there was left nothing to make those that came thither believe it had ever been inhabited.
The Works of Flavius Josephus.
In other words, the picture you provided shows the remaining part of the western wall that essentially formed the foundation of the wall. The rest of it, as Josephus recorded, was "so thoroughly laid even with the ground by those that dug it up to the foundation, that there was left nothing to make those that came thither believe it had ever been inhabited."
Certainly this illustrates that Christ correctly predicted the total desolation of Jerusalem that happened in 70 AD.
You wrote:
"The Gospel of Matthew is traditionally believed to be the earliest, with Papias, Origen, and Eusebius all confirming an Hebrew/Amaraic version pre-existing the Greek."
From this source:
http://www.conservapedia.com/Gospel_of_Mark
"Mark is generally believed to be the earliest gospel. Based upon common elements in Mark and the gospels of Matthew and Luke, it appears that Mark was used as the framework from which to expand. There is a theory that Matthew was first, especially based on church tradition, but this theory does not have much popularity today.
You wrote:
"I find this assertion to be less powerful than it seems. While true to a point, it is highly doubtful that the people had no knowledge of the stories involved, or the meanings attached therein.
"And this leads, of course to an erroneous conclusion:"
This, of course, represents nothing more than your opinion with no scholarship to support it.
You wrote:
"Conflating the gospels in comparison is a sloppy start. Compare them, sure... conflate them, no. Each has it's own contribution. Since we are speaking about Matt 24, perhaps it is best to use Matt 24:"
Except that - as noted - each of the gospel writers is recounting their version of the Olivet Discourse in the language, idioms, and images their primary readers will understand. They are not writing about different events, they are writing about the same event through the lenses of their own understanding of it and communicating that to their respective readers.
The other questions Matthew records the disciples asking about "His return" and "the end of the age" were not the focus of that particular article. The article in question is merely trying to get people - like you - to understand that Christ spent most of Matthew 24 talking about the destruction of the Temple!
Was Jerusalem and its Temple destroyed in 70 AD or not? If so, you have Christ's prediction of it happening (and why it was done) in Matthew 23 and 24, as well as the other synoptic gospels.
As to your criticism that there were "just a couple wars, just a few apostles killed, and just a famine mentioned", these were merely representative of the information found, for instance, in Foxe's Book of Martyrs (as one source).
Thousands of disciples were being killed daily in Nero's persecution and those that followed.
Time and space do not permit posting the entirety of Foxe's Book of Martyrs - or any other comprehensive source of history for that period - in a blog. The point of the exercise was to get people to look critically at what they believe by exposing them to other sources that cast their "sacred cows" in a less than favorable light. It's not my job to "spoon feed" people.
The resources are available for anyone to understand this material. If you are comfortable in your beliefs, however, then fine: a real discussion about the fulfillment of most of Matthew 24 in 70 AD is not for you.
Given the rabid response of some here to anything that even remotely moves them closer to an understanding of the truth, however, I'd say they needed something like this a long, long time ago.
As to the rest of your "critique", I will address it at some other point in the future. I'm not interested in discussing this further with people whose minds are already made up.
Intersting you quote the Jewish scriptures....time and time again we see the following, in the very next chapter:
Isaiah 56: 6 And foreigners who bind themselves to the LORD to serve him, to love the name of the LORD, and to worship him, all who keep the Sabbath without desecrating it and who hold fast to my covenant-
7 these I will bring to my holy mountain and give them joy in my house of prayer. Their burnt offerings and sacrifices will be accepted on my altar; for my house will be called a house of prayer for all nations."
And many peoples shall come, and say: "Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; that he may teach us his ways and that we may walk in his paths," for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem. (Isaiah 2:3)
Jer 16:19 O LORD, my strength and my fortress, my refuge in time of distress, to you the nations will come from the ends of the earth and say, "Our fathers possessed nothing but false gods, worthless idols that did them no good.
Zech 8:23 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you.
The nations dont becomes Christians in the end days. Messiah teaches the nations about G-d, His ways, the law, and His ordinances...says so plainly.
Well, first of all there are no do-overs....the Tanakh (OT) never mentions a Messiah that does part of the job and then comes back 2000 years later to finish the job. Second, the Messiah of the Tanakh is just a man, like King David. Very smart, pwerful and spiritual, but still just a man. Jesus by Chrisitan definition is 100% God and 100% man, this is called a hypostatic union. This (I am sorry to say) is just not the Messiah ben David but closer to a Grecco-Roman demigod.
Sure it does:
24 "Seventy weeks are determined For your people and for your holy city, To finish the transgression, To make an end of sins, To make reconciliation for iniquity, To bring in everlasting righteousness, To seal up vision and prophecy, And to anoint the Most Holy.
25 "Know therefore and understand, That from the going forth of the command To restore and build Jerusalem Until Messiah the Prince, There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; The street shall be built again, and the wall, Even in troublesome times.
26 "And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself; And the people of the prince who is to come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end of it shall be with a flood, And till the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 Then he [Messiah] shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate." Daniel 9:24-27 (NKJV)
Daniel not only prophesies of a coming Messiah, but gives the date for His coming! Then prophesies that in the middle of the last week, Messiah "will be cut off, but not for Himself."
Several Messianic Jews I know set me onto this passage. This passage from Daniel is not about an anti-Christ, but about Messiah Himself!
You can even pin the date on His coming using the information provided in Ezra:
8 Let it be known to the king that we went into the province of Judea, to the temple of the great God, which is being built with heavy stones, and timber is being laid in the walls; and this work goes on diligently and prospers in their hands.
9 Then we asked those elders, and spoke thus to them: "Who commanded you to build this temple and to finish these walls?"
10 We also asked them their names to inform you, that we might write the names of the men who were chief among them.
11 And thus they returned us an answer, saying: "We are the servants of the God of heaven and earth, and we are rebuilding the temple that was built many years ago, which a great king of Israel built and completed.
12 But because our fathers provoked the God of heaven to wrath, He gave them into the hand of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, the Chaldean, who destroyed this temple and carried the people away to Babylon.
13 However, in the first year of Cyrus king of Babylon, King Cyrus issued a decree to build this house of God.
14 Also, the gold and silver articles of the house of God, which Nebuchadnezzar had taken from the temple that was in Jerusalem and carried into the temple of Babylon--those King Cyrus took from the temple of Babylon, and they were given to one named Sheshbazzar, whom he had made governor. 15 And he said to him, 'Take these articles; go, carry them to the temple site that is in Jerusalem, and let the house of God be rebuilt on its former site.' Ezra 5:8-15 (NKJV)
Daniel was told that Jerusalm and "the people" would have 490 years to accomplish 6 items (listed above). Not only didn't they complete the appointed tasks, but rejected Messiah when He appeared. That rejection led to His crucifixion midway through Daniel's "7th week."
God is not finished with Israel, nor is Israel's work finished in welcoming Messiah.
That reads as an assumption based on biases.
The OT certainly does NOT PRECLUDE that, linguistically, theologically, in any respect.
It is only biases about the OT that insist otherwise.
It is CONCEIVABLE that Almighty G_d COULD implement something different than either TRADITIONAL JEWISHNESS OR CHRISTIANITY.
I do NOT believe He will—but HE COULD. He could manage it without violating any of the OT.
I can certainly manage it merging Judiasm and Christianity under the Messiah Yeshua.
I have absolutely an unshakable conviction that
ALMIGHTY G_D
DID NOT
Hire you as HIS SCRIPT WRITER.
HINT:
HE DOES THINGS HIS WAY
NOT YOURS.
Nice to see that some true things are understood in some quarters.
Then, my friend, we must certainly throw away the words of this great prophet. While Hezekiah was a great king, without Messiah, he is dead, lost in his grave, his bloodline destroyed, and lost to time. If this prophecy was finished in his time, then Isaiah was certainly wrong.
For these words most assuredly did not come to pass:
Isa 9:7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.
(e-Sword:KJV)
What do we do now?
“YOUR posts are from the PIT OF HELL!”
Really, That’s completely unnecessary!
Yet there they remain. One stone upon another, 7 courses high. No one disputes that these are Herodian stone.
Mat 24:2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
Considering their precious worth to the Jews, and the spirit of those who hate them, those stones may be torn down, even yet.
This, of course, represents nothing more than your opinion with no scholarship to support it.
As does yours.
Except that - as noted - each of the gospel writers is recounting their version of the Olivet Discourse in the language, idioms, and images their primary readers will understand. They are not writing about different events, they are writing about the same event through the lenses of their own understanding of it and communicating that to their respective readers.
Or, as I noted, each should be gleaned separately for their treasures of prophecy. There is a reason for the differences. We will have to disagree about what that reason is.
The article in question is merely trying to get people - like you - to understand that Christ spent most of Matthew 24 talking about the destruction of the Temple!
Or he talked about the destruction of the Temple and Jerusalem in Matt 24, and Matt 21:19-22, and Matt 34 is not a reiteration... but another thing all together. And those stones, still standing one upon another, seven courses high, seem to tell the tale.
these were merely representative of the information found, for instance, in Foxe's Book of Martyrs (as one source).
I am quite familiar with Foxe's Book of Martyrs... But the persecution of Christ's own barely began by AD 70... There is a whole description of a time when Christ's own (and the Jews) were persecuted wholesale in a manner several orders of magnitude higher... Just turn a wee bit further back in the book. Not to discount the time from 32AD to 70 AD, but that was just a pittance in the pot.
As to the rest of your "critique", I will address it at some other point in the future. I'm not interested in discussing this further with people whose minds are already made up.
Which explains the brevity of my reply. From your tenor, it seems there is little profit in investing the time...
The Apostle Matthew (formerly known as Levi, the tax collector) was a Jew (as were all of the apostles). Matthew’s understanding of this passage differs significantly from yours, and he was taught by no less than Yeshua Himself:
12 Now when He heard that John had been taken into custody, He [Jesus] withdrew into Galilee; 13 and leaving Nazareth, He came and settled in Capernaum, which is by the sea, in the region of Zebulun and Naphtali.
14 This was to fulfill what was spoken through Isaiah the prophet, saying, 15 “ The land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali, By the way of the sea, beyond the Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles—
16 “ The people who were sitting in darkness saw a great light, And to those who were sitting in the land and shadow of death, Upon them a light dawned.” 17 From that time Jesus began to preach and say, “ Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”
Matthew 4:12-17 (NASB77)
Carefully Friend... It is only the difference between the letter, and the spirit of the Law...
“Yet there they remain. One stone upon another, 7 courses high. No one disputes that these are Herodian stone.”
You can ignore Josephus’ words - who was an eyewitness to these events - at the risk of your own credibility. I’ll choose to believe what he says about it.
“But the persecution of Christ’s own barely began by AD 70”
Categorically untrue. Go back and read Foxe’s past the first chapter
“Which explains the brevity of my reply. From your tenor, it seems there is little profit in investing the time...”
Ditto.
“Nice to see that some true things are understood in some quarters.”
We have nothing to discuss.
“You find The Truth completely unnecessary; that’s your problem, not mine.”
I’m tired of your crap. I’ve reported this as abuse.
Let those who love the LORD hate evil.
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