Posted on 07/18/2010 6:04:05 AM PDT by Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus
It often seems like MOST RC’s hereon ASSUME that virtually all Proddys hereon
are knee jerk hostile, flushing, dismissive etc. to 110% of everything Vatican related.
I’m not. I like to call a spade a spade. That’s how I was reared and been practicing it a long time.
However, I also believe in honestly affirming what is affirmable, in clear conscience . . .
even, horror, in the RC camp.
Praise God.
This is a voice and a story for many in the Catholic Religion to read and ponder.
God is good. Let us worship and adore Him, and read His Word.
Thank You, for the ping.
Thank you for at least posting from Catholic sources. I will leave it to the Catholics to comment on your commentary.
I think it is wonderful you believe that, because it is the Biblical truth of the Gospel. On the other hand, there are many Catholics on this forum who repeatedly quote James 2 to insist that we are saved by faith AND works. Can you understand why some non-Catholics here might get confused about what is actually believed in your religion?
You guys are the Sola Scriptura guys, not us.
We can say the same Sacred Tradition which looks at the totality of evidence on the Eucharist and concludes that Jesus meant it also tells us that the extreme language of this saying was rhetorical hyperbole.
Your side despises tradition in comparison with the Scriptures. I think it's your side that has the 'splainin' to do. I don't see a whole lot of self-mutilated Sola Scriptura types out there either.
Not only that, would be rather difficult for us to literally eat His flesh, since He was resurrected and lives today.
This whole conversation would be a lot less tedious if our opponents (a) didn't treat us like illiterate boobs and (b) maybe read a little Aquinas on the subject before they fired their pop guns at us.
Do you really think that we do not believe that Jesus was resurrected and lives today? Do you really think that our teaching on the substantial presence of Christ in the Eucharistic species has not considered the fundamental proclamation of the faith, that Christ is raised from the dead?
He is talking about Human(flesh) thinking which is lower than spiritual(Godly) thinking. Meaning from God.
" the words(Godly Logic) that I speak unto you, they are spirit(GOD who is above human), and they are life."
It's literal.
Furthermore, I was amazed when I first read what Calvin had to say about the matter. Not for him
the “ dryness,” of the Swiss or Scots Church. Basically h saw that as a rejection of the Incarnation, for if the Spirit can “summon” the Word into a woman, the Spirit can summon “Him” into/as bread and wine. Calvin would have Jesus virtually present in the Eucharist and, according to my observation,so would a pious Baptist— despising though he might the “materialism” of the doctrine of transubstantiation. When he/she takes communion, he/she fells closer to Christ than at other times, including, of course, the way he communes with the Lord by reading the Bible.
huh? tHAT’S NOT WHAT THE SCRIPTURE YOU QUOTED SAYS...
heh heh heh. Faith and works.
The confusion stems (I think and hope) from an almost total breakdown of a common language as we see in the fact that many Catholics can't express their Faith in terms a Protestant could even begin to understand.
For that matter there are an abundance of Catholics who couldn't express their Faith in terms even they can understand. Nevertheless I'm not about to judge what's in the heart based on whether someone can trigger exactly the words I want to hear.
Without putting too much credence into what I'm about to write, let me tentatively suggest the following: When Catholics (especially Catholics who have never talked to a Protestant about these things) are talking about salvation odds are pretty high that they're really talking about what someone from a Wesleyan tradition would understand as sanctification. I'm not an authority on these matters though so I may be way off base and at the very least there's a great danger of over-simplification and of course the point I made about Catholics and Protestants no longer sharing a common language. If we ever did.
Words like salvation, sanctification, justification, predestination, etc., just aren't in the average Catholic's vocabulary. And certainly words like prayer and worship don't mean much of anything similar to Catholics and Protestants.
Faith, wisdom and knowledge are tricky. I know a dementia patient with tremendous faith. Faith is when you believe "in" Jesus Christ our Lord. This is the "being" mode. Knowledge and understanding, though very important, bring the "having" mode more into play and we must be careful.
My earlier post was a weak attempt to show the problem of "having" expectations. They bring disappointment. Does God want us to be disappointed? or does he want us to be joyful?
I have a feeling that a great many anti-Catholics really do think this is what Catholics believe.
Sure. I get what you’re saying.
I think the problem comes from our understanding of things. In this case, I understand a “study” to be an activity in which those participating gain a better understanding of something. I have never been one, even as a child, to simply accept “this is how it is.” Not every question can be answered, but that doesn’t mean they shouldn’t be asked.
But then, that’s one thing that made me settle into the parish where my wife and I are currently members. One of the clergy, who sponsored me for my Baptism (and thus is a kind of “God-father”), regularly entertains me questioning nature and engages in conversations that go beyond “because that’s how it is.”
I don’t like it when people give that kind of answer, and I REALLY don’t like it when people accept it.
Still, you’re right. There is a fine line we must be careful about.
I think it’s a case of looking so hard for targets that anything that moves gets shot at. They don’t assess, they just shoot.
And you guys don't pray to Mary or the Saints...Yada, Yada, Yada...
Your own proof texts for working your way to heaven are in Matthew...Visit people in prison, feed and clothe people...And if you don't you're counted as one of the goats...
People don't make up accusations against your religion...We learn it from you guys...You tell us these things...You print these things in books and on the computer...
You guys tell us that you can't get to heaven on Faith, alone...What else does it take...YOu have to do something???
“The issue is not Protestantism as defined as any “Christian” group outside Rome, but those who hold to its historical foundational distinctives, that being the supremacy of Scripture and salvation by grace thru faith,... And concomitant with this evangelical gospel are the other foundational salvific truths, which are stated in the Nicene Creed.”
But the denominations don’t hold all the same concepts.
Saying that all of them believe salvation by grace thru faith and omitting that some do not believe in the “Once Saved Always Saved” doctrine and the fact that many do not espouse the Nicene Creed skips over significant differences in those denominations.
Hence, arguments about Catholicism’s differences in doctrine keep hidden (I think deliberately) the many differences in doctrine in the Protestant realm.
I refuse to continue the game. Arguments by those who do not acknowledge the Nicene Creed and the Once Saved doctrine, and yet will argue in support of those who do against Catholicism is simply intellectual dishonesty.
Having someone pray in front of his tv from his armchair and claim to be saved since he claimed the Name, is another form of intellectual dishonesty. Christianity is not a simple relgion. Some have made it an insipid gloss of superficial spirituality and that is the shame of armchair rectories.
“Virtually all denominations (Southern and Fundamental Baptists, Assembles of God, Calvary Chapels, etc.) hold to the above.And on the pew-level where it counts, they show more unity here and in moral views than Catholics, though both are manifesting declension.”
And a survey of American religions is not a complete and exhaustive survery of Catholicism in the world. While Catholic Europe has problems, so does Europe in Protestant terms. Catholicism is thriving in other areas of the world even as it undergoes some of the worst persecution.
“This unity can also be seen by way of contrast with cults and groups they reject, which err in these fundamentals, which is usually due to formally or effectively holding men as a higher authority than the Scriptures. In addition these evangelicals manifest a remarkable transdenominational unity of the Spirit in worship, prayer, and other ministries and gatherings, because they were born again.”
Oh please. Christ is the head of the Catholic church. I’ve heard that absolute nonsense about Catholicism resembling a cult and that is more divisive propaganda worthy of Catholophobia comics of the louche variety.
“Catholics themselves have great liberty in interpreting the Bible, and even can disagree somewhat with teachings of the Ordinary and General magisteriums...”
But I thought Catholics don’t read the Bible. At least that’s what I’ve been told over and over again on these boards.
We can interpret, but Not in Dogma. I can disagree in several areas of bible interpretation, but I AGREE with DOGMA. I’ve studied enough and confirmed with the HS to know it is TRUE.
“Finally, unity based upon salvific truth and its fruits - even with some disagreements - is of a higher quality than unity based on error and its fruits, which Rome overall demonstrably manifests.”
Tell me that in 2000 years. As the Protestant sects keep splintering and splintering and splintering as they have done since 1600’s.
Unless people ‘fes up to what they are, no contact.
Three days later, the archbishop of Vancouver, B.C., James Carney, called me to his office. I was then officially silenced and forbidden to preach in his archdiocese.
What a great testimony!
Just thought it might be a nice refresher, this man became Born Again by reading the Scriptures. He recognized the absolute authority in them and believed.
I think, with the exclusion of traditional Lutherans and Anglicans, that most Protestants have totally lost sight of what their denominations have historically believed.
Every day on here an anti-Catholic tries to make a big deal out of the statement that “outside the Catholic Church there is no salvation.” However, EVERYONE who professes to believe the Nicene Creed already agrees with this; they may not agree with the papacy or any number of Catholic teachings and their understanding of what Christ’s Catholic (universal) Church is, but they confess a belief in ONE Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.
Would it then be right to commit your soul to ANYTHING, not fully understanding what you were doing?
None of us "fully understands" this life, God, our salvation, grace, mercy, justification, Christ's sacrifice or His resurrection.
But your question was answered by Jesus Christ 2,000 years ago...
"Be not afraid; only believe." -- Mark 5:36
The rest is all part of our post-justification sanctification by the Holy Spirit.
Who believes to the saving of their soul? Men who have received God's grace through faith in Jesus Christ. And what is grace? Grace is not anything we deserve or accomplish. Grace is God's unmerited favor, given to whom He will and ordained by Him from before the foundation of the world. Read Ephesians 1.
All the rest is epilogue.
Thus Christ tells us not to be afraid, but to run headlong into belief because our salvation by grace through faith in Christ is the will of the Father. He promises to catch us.
Therefore faith is trust in Christ and His obedience in fulfilling the Law perfectly for us and His perfect righteousness which is mercifully imputed to us, and not in our own obedience, righteousness or deserving.
"Deserve's got nothing to do with it." - Wmilliam Munny.
All this truth is predicated not on the doctrines of men nor on the efficacy of any sacraments nor rituals nor pagan superstitions, but on the perfect word of God, men's only rule of faith and practice. Read your Bible. Learn the truth.
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