St. Juan Diego's tilma: "completely outside" science

DeaconsBench ^ | Monday August 24, 2009 | Beliefnet/Deacon's Bench

[Salvation]

St. Juan Diego's tilma: "completely outside" science

Monday August 24, 2009

Take a look:

A physicist who has spent years researching the tilma bearing the image of Our Lady of Guadalupe is affirming that there is no scientific explanation for the phenomenon.

Adolfo Orozco stated this in a presentation given at an International Marian Congress that took place Aug. 6-8 in Phoenix.

The congress, sponsored by the Knights of Columbus, the Phoenix Diocese and the Institute of Guadalupan Studies, was dedicated to Our Lady of Guadalupe.

Orozco gave a presentation on the image of the Virgin imprinted on St. Juan Diego's tilma, stating that it is "completely outside" any scientific explanation.

He explained that due to the humid, salty environment around the basilica where the tilma is kept in Mexico City, the cloak material should have decomposed years ago.

In fact, the researcher noted, this is what happened to a painted copy of the image that was made in 1789, on a material similar to the original tilma.

Although the copy was preserved behind glass, like the original, it had to be discarded eight years later because it was falling apart and the painting was fading, the physicist reported.

The original image, however, which was imprinted on the cloak when the Blessed Virgin appeared to the saint, remains intact after 478 years.

Orozco told his audience that this phenomenon is heightened by the fact that it should have been destroyed twice, once when nitric acid was accidentally spilled on a section of the cloth, and another time when a bomb exploded close to it.

He affirmed that there is no natural explanation for how the image has survived undamaged through time and potentially destructive events such as these.

[presently no screen name]

A believer should be living a life of fellowship with his God so that going to church is incidental. That kind of relationship IS possible for the believer.

So true.

[presently no screen name]

If it is not from YHvH it must be from Satan

It is from satan. He has used it to deceive the 'Jesus isn't enough' crowd.

"And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light." 2 Cor 11:14

"Jesus said to him, "Away from Me, Satan! For it is written: 'Worship the Lord your God, and serve Him only.'" Matthew 4:10

"But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!" Galatians 1:8

The Vatican gospel and their words are contained in their bible, the catechism.

[Quix]

Nowhere in YHvH's WORD do we find commandments, direction or admonition to worship, adore or recognition of any created being.

One can deduce that such worship, adoration and recognition is not from YHvh.

If it is not from YHvH it must be from Satan to distract us or have us question.

Gen 3:1 Now the serpent was more crafty than any beast of the field which the YHvH God had made. And he said to the woman, "Indeed, has God said, 'You shall not eat from any tree of the garden'?"

I would have questions about the leadership of any organization who distract created beings from the worship of the NAME of YHvH and His WORD.

ABSOLUTELY INDEED.

That's the reason they had to make !!!!TRADITIONs!!!! of man, doctrines of man, doctrines of demons EQUAL in the

Vatican Ashteroth-Mary-Goddess-Queen-of-Heaven system

TO SCRIPTURE.

The whole idea of that almost makes my skin crawl.

What loooooooooooonacy to ABSOLUTELY ARROGANTLY IGNORE the many Scriptures about God's value on HIS WORD. All the IT IS WRITTEN sayings of Christ etc. seem to be totally ignored by the Vatican cult.

OF COURSE.

Otherwise, they'd have to OBEY THE SCRIPTURES and that would HINDER their statue toe kissing and other fawning over their long list of idolatries and personages.

I used to think it was mere misguided poorly taught stuff coupled with blase ignorance and/or apathy on the part of Roman Catholics.

The RC's on FR have DEMONSTRABLY PROVEN to me that it's much deeper and more intense of a problem.

It's clearly a serious demonic problem intrinsically rooted in THE VATICAN SYSTEM . . . probably from the beginning of their 1600 year existence.

[mdmathis6]

Oh I don’t know if that is a good thing or bad thing in your view. I hope I didn’t dredge ill will back from the dead.....
I think God is at work all the time...he has not left us all alone...I think miracles happen all the time but in ways that bring glory to God’s name. Elders are still to pray for the sick in their churches. We are still to pray for Gods’ intervention in the great and small things of life;why command us yet to pray unless God on occasion will intervene tactically in the needs of his faithful in a “just in time” sort of way? (as opposed to just praying for things that God has already strategically set in motion....)

[mdmathis6]

Oh I don’t know if that is a good thing or bad thing in your view. I hope I didn’t dredge ill will back from the dead.....
I think God is at work all the time...he has not left us all alone...I think miracles happen all the time but in ways that bring glory to God’s name. Elders are still to pray for the sick in their churches. We are still to pray for Gods’ intervention in the great and small things of life;why command us yet to pray unless God on occasion will intervene tactically in the needs of his faithful in a “just in time” sort of way? (as opposed to just praying for things that God has already strategically set in motion....)

[D-fendr]

In the view of Messianic Judaism, in general terms, are Protestants less wrong than Catholics, more wrong, or equally wrong.

[mdmathis6]

I saw the posting I responded to in the general index listing...from another posting I think....I didn’t check the dates...I guess I was bad...I think!

[D-fendr]

Nah, not bad at all, thank you.

It’s been roughly a year since i reflected on this event. A marvelous miracle that had a tremendous effect on the New World and the Christian Church, plus a beautiful work of art.

IMHO, the threads resurrection during Advent is excellent timing.

:)

[OLD REGGIE]

Because it is important to preach the Christian Gospel in truth.

And anti-Scriptural hallucinations and ignorant swindles are not the Gospel of Jesus Christ. That is not Christianity. It’s superstition and “vain jangling.”

It must be noted that the story concerning The Miracle of Guadalupe is not without controversy even in the Catholic Church.

The following links serve to illustrate some reasons for scepticism. (I will not attempt to make a case for objectivity just as proponents of the authenticity of the story make no attempt to claim objectivity.)

Boston Globe article which touches on the subject.

Sceptic site - definitely not objective.

Something to think about. Scroll up and down for more complete information.">

[presently no screen name]

Not bad, don’t think like that. :-)

[Uri’el-2012]

In the view of Messianic Judaism, in general terms, are Protestants less wrong than Catholics, more wrong, or equally wrong.

Different.

Neither observe YHvH commandments and Feasts.

Both could be more Scriptural; closer to YHvH's WORD.

shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach

[D-fendr]

Thanks. I assume you mean, specifically, because neither observe Jewish Law, biblical feasts, and Sabbath.

Does your group hold that Jesus as Messiah is Divine or not?

Trinitarian?

[Uri’el-2012]

Thanks. I assume you mean, specifically, because neither observe Jewish Law, biblical feasts, and Sabbath.

Does your group hold that Jesus as Messiah is Divine or not?

Trinitarian?

There is only ONE Elohim, His NAME is YHvH
It is hidden in all English translations 7000 times.

There are not Jewish laws, Feasts and Sabbath;
They are for all those "called out" to hear YHvH.
Called out as in Deuteronomy 4:10 : Ekklesia

They are all commanded by the ONE Elohim: YHvH

Yah'shua is the Shekinah of YHvH.

shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach

[MarkBsnr]

Does your group hold that Jesus as Messiah is Divine or not? Trinitarian?

There is only ONE Elohim, His NAME is YHvH It is hidden in all English translations 7000 times. There are not Jewish laws, Feasts and Sabbath; They are for all those "called out" to hear YHvH. Called out as in Deuteronomy 4:10 : Ekklesia They are all commanded by the ONE Elohim: YHvH Yah'shua is the Shekinah of YHvH.

In other words, no.

[D-fendr]

Thank you. I will take that as a no.

Therefore, would this previous comment:

"Nowhere in YHvH's WORD do we find commandments, direction or admonition to worship, adore or recognition of any created being.

One can deduce that such worship, adoration and recognition is not from YHvh.

If it is not from YHvH it must be from Satan to distract us or have us question…

Would this also apply to worship, adoration, etc. of Jesus/Yah'shua?

[Uri’el-2012]

D-f>Does your group hold that Jesus as Messiah is Divine or not? Trinitarian?

Uri'el>There is only ONE Elohim,
His NAME is YHvH It is hidden in all English translations 7000 times.
There are not Jewish laws, Feasts and Sabbath;
They are for all those "called out" to hear YHvH.
Called out as in Deuteronomy 4:10 : Ekklesia
They are all commanded by the ONE Elohim: YHvH
Yah'shua is the Shekinah of YHvH.

MB>In other words, no.

But it is based only on the WORD of YHvH.

It does not impugn the WORD OF YHvH
and follow traditions of man.

shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach

[Uri’el-2012]

Would this also apply to worship, adoration, etc. of Jesus/Yah'shua?

Yah'shua is not a created being.

He is the shekinah glory of YHvH who
has tabernacled among us. (John 1:14)

His NAME: Yah'shua means:
YHvH is/be my salvation.(Num 13:16)

shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach

[D-fendr]

Yah'shua is not a created being.

Then I misunderstood. He is Divine? Is He the same as God the Father or is He God the Son? I took your previous answer to mean you were not Trinitarian. Was I wrong?

He is the shekinah glory of YHvH who has tabernacled among us.

Can you be more specific about your beliefs? The tabernacle is a created thing. Shekinah can mean the dwelling or settling divine presence of God, especially in the Temple; for some it represents the feminine attributes of the presence of God (shekhinah is a feminine word in Hebrew), based on readings of the Talmud. Shekinah varies in meaning. Shekinah glory means what? A divine being or a divine presence in something else?

Is Yah'shua God or not God? If God is it the same person as God the Father or not? Is He begotten of the Father? Is He fully human or not human at all?

Thank you.

[Alamo-Girl]

Sorry to take so long to reply, dear brother in Christ! Like you, I am at the moment overwhelmed with family issues.

I believe that the critters are most likely fallen angels a la the Book of Enoch and Genesis 6

. . . pretending to be citizens of distant planets.

Actually, I see more of the aliens-as-demons vision in Roland Buck's Angels on Assignment than in the ancient Book of Enoch (Enoch I).

I prefer the Isaac translation of Enoch I in Charlesworth's Pseudepigrapha but it is not available online. The linked translation above was made in 1917, before the Dead Sea Scrolls were discovered along with fragments of a copy of Enoch carbon dated to hundreds of years B.C.

Interestingly, the earlier commentaries to the translations assumed that Enoch was written after Christ's ministry because of the references to Herod. "Scholarship" assumes that prophecy is impossible on principle, i.e. methodological naturalism excludes the supernatural.

Any hoot, Enoch expands on Genesis 6 as you say.

And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them, That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they [were] fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also [is] flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare [children] to them, the same [became] mighty men which [were] of old, men of renown. - Genesis 6:1-4

A subtext I gather from Enoch is that the demons are the spirits of the children of the angels who slept with women. They were blood thirsty giants physically destroyed by the Noah flood. But their spirits remained to roam the earth whereas their angelic parents were bound for the coming judgment.

And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. - Jude 1:6

For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast [them] down to hell, and delivered [them] into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; - 2 Peter 2:4

versus

And he healed many that were sick of divers diseases, and cast out many devils; and suffered not the devils to speak, because they knew him. - Mark 1:34

And devils also came out of many, crying out, and saying, Thou art Christ the Son of God. And he rebuking [them] suffered them not to speak: for they knew that he was Christ. - Luke 4:41

In other words, dear brother in Christ, I see these demons (once embodied children of angels/women) as bound already (e.g. earth-bound or bound to the deep) not as extraterrestrials capable of free will movement in the end of days.

And Jesus asked him, saying, What is thy name? And he said, Legion: because many devils were entered into him.

And they besought him that he would not command them to go out into the deep.

And there was there an herd of many swine feeding on the mountain: and they besought him that he would suffer them to enter into them. And he suffered them. Then went the devils out of the man, and entered into the swine: and the herd ran violently down a steep place into the lake, and were choked. - Luke 8:30-33

Notably, according to Enoch, the angels who slept with women (Genesis 6) were on assignment from God to "watch" over mankind. They are often called the Watchers.

Satan, on the other hand, has a following of angels who obviously had self-will, e.g. to rebel. Perhaps they are the ones Roland Buck saw as end of days UFOs.

Another interesting point, Enoch explains that God called upon him to plead the case of the Watchers who were begging for mercy for their children. The Watcher angels were dealt with very harshly indeed, as I am sure all Satan's angelic followers will be in the end of days (Rev 20). But God was merciful to the demons by letting their spirits survive the Noah flood and in granting the above plea of "Legion" to be spared banishment to the "deep."

Any hoot, that's my "two cents" ...

[Quix]

GREATLY APPRECIATE your substantive, detailed elaboration.

Sounds more than plausible, to me.

PRAYERS FOR YOUR FAMILY LOVED ONES AND YOUR TIRELESS MINISTRATIONS IN THEIR BEHALF.

MAY GOD ANOINT ALL OF US WITH HIS MERCY, GRACE, COMFORT IN HIS HOLY SPIRIT AND IN HIS PEACE AND WHOLENESS PER HIS WILL AND GOALS FOR EACH OF US.

MAY HE STRENGTHEN YOU IN ALL YOUR DOINGS DEAR SISTER IN CHRIST.