St. Juan Diego's tilma: "completely outside" science

DeaconsBench ^ | Monday August 24, 2009 | Beliefnet/Deacon's Bench

[Salvation]

St. Juan Diego's tilma: "completely outside" science

Monday August 24, 2009

Take a look:

A physicist who has spent years researching the tilma bearing the image of Our Lady of Guadalupe is affirming that there is no scientific explanation for the phenomenon.

Adolfo Orozco stated this in a presentation given at an International Marian Congress that took place Aug. 6-8 in Phoenix.

The congress, sponsored by the Knights of Columbus, the Phoenix Diocese and the Institute of Guadalupan Studies, was dedicated to Our Lady of Guadalupe.

Orozco gave a presentation on the image of the Virgin imprinted on St. Juan Diego's tilma, stating that it is "completely outside" any scientific explanation.

He explained that due to the humid, salty environment around the basilica where the tilma is kept in Mexico City, the cloak material should have decomposed years ago.

In fact, the researcher noted, this is what happened to a painted copy of the image that was made in 1789, on a material similar to the original tilma.

Although the copy was preserved behind glass, like the original, it had to be discarded eight years later because it was falling apart and the painting was fading, the physicist reported.

The original image, however, which was imprinted on the cloak when the Blessed Virgin appeared to the saint, remains intact after 478 years.

Orozco told his audience that this phenomenon is heightened by the fact that it should have been destroyed twice, once when nitric acid was accidentally spilled on a section of the cloth, and another time when a bomb exploded close to it.

He affirmed that there is no natural explanation for how the image has survived undamaged through time and potentially destructive events such as these.

[Alamo-Girl]

You are quite welcome, dear brother/sister in Christ!

But truly I should not try to post past my bedtime. LOLOL! In rereading it this morning, I realize that I omitted a few things.

Pastor Buck, as far as I know, did not physically die like those who have "near death experiences." But I truly believe that God was letting him see things as he neared his last days on earth - and this over a period of time. Buck did not profit from his visions.

I should have mentioned several personal experiences of such near death mercies. One involved our minister, Rev. Hunt, who was a remarkably spiritual man. On his last day on this earth, he sat up in bed at the hospital, greeted Jesus and laid back content and then passed.

Another similar one involved a friend's grandson who had been fighting cancer for a long time. On his last day at the hospital, he also sat up in bed, greeted Jesus and laid back content and then passed. The two never knew each other.

One of the ancient manuscripts in Charlesworth's Pseudepigrapha relates a story that Abraham, in his final days was sad in contemplating leaving the company of his loved ones. In the story God sent an angel to comfort him and prepare him to go home.

I also note with much gratitude to God His great mercies in the passing of my mother, husband and sister. My mother did not want a wheel chair or nursing home and He spared her both. My husband didn't want to die a cardiac cripple and He took him while he was scuba diving. Finally, my sister asked God to take her while she was still employed - and she was kept on the payroll for a full day after her passing.

Moreover in both my mother and sister's passing - as they slipped into the final coma - I felt them both passing through me, comforting me, assuring me that they were very much alive and happy. Praise God!!!

And I was with my husband scuba diving when he passed diving in the "emerald sea" as it is called off the coast of Panama City, Florida. The water is greenish there and as the diver descends it turns an ever-deepening blue. He had fallen back to 75 feet of water and as I approached him the area immediately surrounding him was bright and yellowish, as if a spotlight were shining on him. I'm certain the light was his spirit separating from his body. And I'm certain that God mercifully let me see this to comfort me as he was calling him home.

Thus my interest in "near death experiences" including the experiences of those who are nearing death.

Precious in the sight of the LORD [is] the death of his saints. - Psalms 116:15

God's Name is I AM.

[MHGinTN]

Thank you for the pings, and the deeper insights. The Lord be with you, Sandi.

[Quix]

PRAISE GOD! PRAISE GOD! PRAISE GOD!

INDEED.

Evidently Dad has ‘seen’ his graduated mother and 2 brothers who’ve gone years before—and been comforted thereby. It was evidently a bit of a shock as one or both brothers were not guaranteed Heaven as far as anyone knew.

However, their mother was a saint of saints. No one I know ever heard her say a negative word about anyone. And she often knelt in prayer off and on throughout every day—interceding for her family grand kids and others. She cared for a number mentally and physically disabled individuals, including some of her own children and grandchildren. This on top of a bit of a physically and emotionally abusive husband.

I agree that God graciously showed Roland Buck much about Heaven and Holy Spirit’s and angels’ ministries here between now and the TEOTWAWKI. I think he was right about God mounting an extra effort to get the family members of the Redeemed also Redeemed in the Blood of Jesus.

The stories of confirmation of the visions he had over those years were dramatic and exciting. I loved the one about the dreadfully trashed life reprobate guitar player who woke Pastor Buck up in the middle of the night because a voice had told him—I think in the middle of drunkenness IIRC, or some such—to “CALL PASTOR BUCK IN BOISE IDAHO.”

Startled and scared more or less sober, he finally managed to obtain a phone number and did so—and he and his family, IIRC, were saved. IIRC, that was one of the 120 things that the Father had shown him would happen in coming months of his life.

Another was who the next Pope would be, at that time.

And the shock of all, when he came back to himself at his desk from that Heavenly visit, he raised his head and realized that in his hands was a vellum like sheet with the 120 items written on it in a very beautiful script.

He was befuddled enough he merely left it on his desk and went on to bed after examining it and reading it a bit. The next morning it had started to disintegrate but a dozen or so people saw pieces of it before it fully disintegrated.

I just know that the book strengthened my hand in God and encouraged me mightily at a critical long dark night of the soul time after my divorce. I had also heard Roland Buck speak at his brother’s church in Spokane.

I’d gone a bit skeptical—having been reared in the Assemblies of God. One sees a lot of authentic, inauthentic and everything in between. And, Roland’s brother was 100% Assembly in all his demeanor and mannerisms, habits etc.

However, Roland was NOT. He had the personality of Walter Cronkite (though very conservative!) His personality was the sort who would not take anything easily without substantial demonstration or proof. He was certainly far from a push-over sort of fellow.

Another part I loved was how the Great Danes he had would always behave in a certain way when the angels were manifesting overtly in their large home. Before the angels ever came into the room where Roland was sleeping or whatever, he could tell they were there by the way the Great Danes were acting.

Yes—this IS the same Buck family as the Buck knives. They have given mightily to missionary work.

Anyway—for those unfamiliar with it—it’s available to read free online here:

http://www.angelsonassignment.org/

[grey_whiskers]

I wrote:

if the Marian visions ended up (historically) in moving the people who saw it, and their friends and relations, away from Paganism to serve the living and true God.

Did the people in the area of this vision, once word of the vision got out,

a) keep worshiping their pagan gods and continuing human sacrifice?

b) drop the pagan stuff and switch to not much of anything?

c) replace the demon-worship with adoration of Mary (who is at least Jesus' mom and within the Christian tradition?)

d) adopt a flavor of Christianity (including RC)?

e) go full-out Dutch Reformed?

f) become Pentecostal?

g) become monthly donors to Benny Hinn, Joyce Meyers? h) join "Jews for Jesus"?

i) subscribe to the Skeptical Inquirer and join the Freedom from Religion Foundation?

Some of those choices would be *much* more consistent with the vision being genuinely from God, than others.

Does that help explain my question?

Cheers!

[Alamo-Girl]

And may God ever bless you, dear brother in Christ!

Thank you for your encouragements!

[Alamo-Girl]

Praise God for His comforting your Dad in his passing by showing him his graduated family!

And thank you for bringing those wonderfully engaging points from Roland Buck's book - along with your personal experiences and testimony as to how the book was helpful to you!

Truly, even if a person presupposes that Pastor Buck was "Looney Tunes" he would surely enjoy reading about the Great Dane and the 100+ specific prophecies!

[Quix]

THANKS TONS, Dear Heart for your excellent commentary on Enoch. Impressive and fascinating.

And, imho, important given these end times and the ET's/fallen angels pretending to be citizens of distant planets working so comprehensively, deceptively and hard to help the globalist oligarchy set up the global satanic government of tyranny mentioned in Revelation and otherwise.

PRAISE GOD FOR HIS FAITHFULNESS in warning us in His Word and with Enoch about the GREAT DECEPTION of the END TIMES--so great THAT WERE IT POSSIBLE, even the very elect would be deceived.

My main desire, other than fostering, encouraging, triggering a Salvation Relationship with Jesus through my poor pontifications--is to wake the Body of Christ up that they be NOT deceived by such forces, personages, efforts.

Of course, satan is not pleased with such an effort and uses many means to discourage such on FR and elsewhere.

THANKS FOR YOUR PRECIOUS UNDERSTANDING AND ENCOURAGEMENTS DEAR ANGEL-GAL.

[OLD REGGIE]

3) While Bill and Hillary were in the White House, they represented BOTH ends of the continuum: rednecks AND Ivy-League educated government officials.

4) But the ALIENS didn't show up.

AL GORE?????????????????

[Quix]

I understand your perspective.

However, satan is not above encouraging some good and even sharing some truth in order to implement a deeper and more destructive seduction and deception.

I contend that the Ashteroth-Mary-Goddess-Queen-of-Heaven

caricature, personage, meme

is sooo much more important and destructive to the Gospel of Jesus ultimately that satan is quite willing and able to step-by-step seduce in that direction AS THOUGH INITIALLY--EVEN FOR MANY HUNDREDS OF YEARS--OSTENSIBLY AS *WITHIN* CHRISTIANITY.

The fact remains, great thick layers of custom, habit, dogma , behaviors, practices built up around and focusing on the personage of Mary are

ABSOLUTELY AGAINST SCRIPTURE.

IN TERMS OF THE PAGANS IN MEXICO--Why would it bother satan to trade one set of pagan practices under one label for a different set of pagan idolatrous practices under a different more 'Christian sanitized' label?

Changing the statues and names on the statues and even some of the rituals would not bother satan AT ALL. The violation of God's express Biblical orders is what he's interested in. Actually, satan is MORE DELIGHTED to get such stuff going on under "Christian" labels in "Christian" houses of worship! SATAN LOVES taking up residence and directing worship in Christian churches!

Sigh.

Exodus 20:4-6 4 "You shall NOT make for yourself
a carved image,
or any likeness
of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. 5 You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I the LORD your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me, 6but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments.

[Quix]

AGREED.

Even if the book were total fiction—it would still be a fascinating read.

http://www.angelsonassignment.org

[OLD REGGIE]

Not Trinitarian? Not Christian. No Nicea? Not Christian. You don't get to make up the rules as you go along.

No Christians prior to Nicea???????????

[marbren]

Thank You Alamo-Girl for your Enoch information. I just stated reading my Book of Enoch copy yesterday a bit closer even before I read your post! There do seem to be some big puzzle pieces found in it's words.

One thing I am recently coming to realize is that even though, by God's grace, I see a lot of the puzzle, (maybe not as much as my brother in Christ master puzzle builder Quix does) I will never see it all. That is OK! I do not know but, Thank God, God knows. It is so cool! The only thing that matters is faith IN our Lord Jesus Christ! The puzzle stuff, and wisdom in seeing it, only comes from God to those who are poor in Spirit to whomever God decides to reveal it to.

I have left behind me the anxiety about those who do not see the big picture. God's grace can handle it. Not some head knowledge of coming events.

[Quix]

THANKS for your kind words.

I absolutely agree with your post.

Salvation in and through Christ is what matters.

Walking in His will, love, Spirit, purposes, Kingdom . . . etc. are HIGH priorities.

Certainly we are not expected nor enabled to see the whole picture this side of eternity. That much is very clear in Paul’s writings.

[MarkBsnr]

No Christians prior to Nicea???????????

Certainly. It is after Nicea to which I referred. Thanks for catching that.

[OLD REGGIE]

No Christians prior to Nicea???????????

Certainly. It is after Nicea to which I referred. Thanks for catching that.

Hi Mark. I was just being a smart*** just to keep you on your toes.

However, there were a number of Church Fathers and Bishops who were "Anti-Trinitarian" prior to Nicea. How about them?

Further, there are those who accept Jesus as their Lord And Savior but have misgivings concerning the Trinity. How about those people? (I have a very close relationship with one of those people.) :-)

[marbren]

The marriage of Mary idol worship, Islam and fatima in these end of gentile days as the age of grace comes to a close is incredible. The one world religion is forming right in front of our eyes. The mother of God and crescent moon heresy stuff is huge. It will really flourish after the rapture.

[Uri’el-2012]

Constantine started nothing. Anyway, he was based in Turkey, not Italy. Why is it that, just as in your theology, that you can't seem to get anything right?

There seems to be a large chunk of history
that you seem blazingly ignorant of.

The city was originally founded as a Greek colony under the name of Byzantium in the 7th century BC. It took on the name of Konstantinoupolis ("city of Constantine", Constantinople) after its re-foundation under Roman emperor Constantine I, who designated it as his new Roman capital.

Constantine had altogether more colourful plans. Having restored the unity of the Empire, and, being in course of major governmental reforms as well as of sponsoring the consolidation of the Christian church, he was well aware that Rome was an unsatisfactory capital. Rome was too far from the frontiers, and hence from the armies and the Imperial courts, and it offered an undesirable playground for disaffected politicians. Yet it had been the capital of the state for over a thousand years, and it might have seemed unthinkable to suggest that the capital be moved to a different location. Nevertheless, he identified the site of Byzantium as the right place: a place where an emperor could sit, readily defended, with easy access to the Danube or the Euphrates frontiers, his court supplied from the rich gardens and sophisticated workshops of Roman Asia, his treasuries filled by the wealthiest provinces of the Empire.

In the reign of Constantine, 325, the celebrated First Council of Nicaea was held there against the Arian heresy, and the prelates there defined more clearly the concept of the Trinity and drew up the Nicene Creed. The doctrine of the Trinity was finalized at the Council of Constantinople in 381 AD which expressly included the Holy Ghost as equal to the Father and the Son.

Constantine had invited all 1800 bishops of the Christian church (about 1000 in the east and 800 in the west), but a smaller and unknown number attended. Eusebius of Caesarea counted 220,[18] Athanasius of Alexandria counted 318,[19] and Eustathius of Antioch counted 270[20] (all three were present at the council). Later, Socrates Scholasticus recorded more than 300,[21] and Evagrius,[22] Hilary of Poitiers,[23] Jerome[24] and Rufinus recorded 318.

Constantine the Roman Pontiff moved the capital of the Roman Empire from Rome to a new city named after himself. It took over five years to construct; while it was under construction, Constantine the Roman Pontiff held court at Nicea.
This is when he invited 1800 bishops to come to his court to re-define "Roman christianity", however only 200 or 300 showed up.

shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach

[MarkBsnr]

No Christians prior to Nicea???????????

Certainly. It is after Nicea to which I referred. Thanks for catching that.

Hi Mark. I was just being a smart*** just to keep you on your toes.

I figured as much. Welcome back from exile.

However, there were a number of Church Fathers and Bishops who were "Anti-Trinitarian" prior to Nicea. How about them?

The non Trinitarian writings are set aside and while noted, not used for doctrine.

Further, there are those who accept Jesus as their Lord And Savior but have misgivings concerning the Trinity. How about those people? (I have a very close relationship with one of those people.) :-)

The dude in the mirror? One can always throw one's self on the mercy of God. Which is something we all need to do anyway. In spite of those who believe in a limousine ride.

[MarkBsnr]

Thanks for posting unattributed quoted material. Again.

I am aware that Constantine established Constantinople. However, he did nothing regarding the Church except to beg the Church to settle the Arian heresy.

You complain that 1800 bishops were invited, but only 300 or so showed up. Name me one organization that can afford to send 1/3 of its officers away for three or four months incommunicado.

Constantine took direction from the Church, not vice versa. He complied with the directives of Nicea, he did not dictate them to the Church.

[Uri’el-2012]

Thanks for posting unattributed quoted material. Again. I am aware that Constantine established Constantinople. However, he did nothing regarding the Church except to beg the Church to settle the Arian heresy. You complain that 1800 bishops were invited, but only 300 or so showed up. Name me one organization that can afford to send 1/3 of its officers away for three or four months incommunicado. Constantine took direction from the Church, not vice versa. He complied with the directives of Nicea, he did not dictate them to the Church.,

You wish it were true.

Enjoy the wide road of man's traditions.

shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach