Are You More Blessed Than the Virgin Mary?

Desiring God ^ | 12/15/2010 | Jonathan Parnell

[RnMomof7]

In the sermon descriptively entitled, “That Hearing and Keeping the Word of God Renders a Person More Blessed Than Any Other Privilege That Ever God Bestowed on Any of the Children of Men,” Jonathan Edwards writes: The hearing and keeping the word of God brings the happiness of a spiritual union and communion with God. ‘Tis a greater blessedness to have spiritual communion with God and to have a saving intercourse with him by the instances of his Spirit and by the exercise of true devotion than it is to converse with God externally, to see the visible representation and manifestations of his presence and glory, and to hear his voice with the bodily ears as Moses did. For in this spiritual intercourse the soul is nigh unto and hath more a particular portion than in any external intercourse. ‘Tis more blessed to be spiritually related to Jesus Christ—to be his disciples, his brethren and the members—than to stand in the nearest temporal relation, than to be his brother or his mother. Come, Thou Long Expected Jesus, ed. Nancy Guthrie, 57.

[topcat54]

Which, ironically, is a "knowledge" Protestants never seem to apply to the man they see in the mirror. In practice, it's always "men and councils can and do err ... except for me".

Patently untrue since there have been several revisions to Reformed creeds and confessions over the years.

If this is the best argument you can supply against the protestants on this topic, then it appears you have badly missed the mark.

[Gamecock]

3. Mary in the Magnificat (Luke 1:46-55) when she is bearing Jesus Christ -- NOTE: Jesus has not been born yet, He has not yet (in our space-time) been the sacrifice on the Cross she says my spirit rejoices in God, my right NOW Saviour

Just like all of the OT Saints. They were saved by faith in the coming Savior.

[Iscool]

ha ha ha, nice little poke this time of year. The Angel Gabriel saluted her as “full of grace”. Are you arrogant enough to think you were ever filled with grace as she was or is? Protestant-ism...heretics

The Angel did not tell Mary she was full of grace...The Angel told Mary she was highly favored...He didn't even tell Mary she was the most favored...Highly favored...

The only person in the scriptures who was full of Grace is the Lord, Jesus Christ...

[Quix]

Have done repeatedly.

All the other eras combined are but super shallow hints alone 1-3 facets only

of 1-3 Bible prophecies.

This has been documented repeatedly on FR.

I have no need to repeat that tedius task.

[bkaycee]

Can you please cite any official dogma that cites otherwise?

If not, will you not see that there is unambiguous proof that the Church believes Jesus Christ and no other is the one mediator between sinful humanity and the righteous God.

To begin, we can say without doubt that the title "Mediatrix" is justified, and applies to all graces for certain, by her cooperation in acquiring all graces on Calvary.

The Second Vatican Council (Lumen gentium ## 61-62), said:

... in suffering with Him as He died on the cross, she cooperated in the work of the Savior, in an altogether singular way, by obedience, faith, hope, and burning love, to restore supernatural life to souls. As a result she is our Mother in the order of grace.

This motherhood of Mary in the economy of grace lasts without interruption, from the consent which she gave in faith at the annunciation, and which she unhesitatingly bore with under the cross, even to the perpetual consummation of all the elect. For after being assumed into heaven, she has not put aside this saving function, but by her manifold intercession, she continues to win the gifts of eternal salvation for us. By her motherly love, she takes care of the brothers of her Son who are still in pilgrimage and in dangers and difficulties, until they be led through to the happy fatherland. For this reason, the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Auxiliatrix, Adiutrix, and Mediatrix. This however it to be so understood that it takes nothing away, or adds nothing to the dignity and efficacy of Christ the one Mediator. For no creature can ever be put on the same level with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer...."

So we answer, since Mary was associated with her Son in acquiring grace for us, she will also share with him in distributing that grace to us. This fits well with the words of the Popes, who call her the administra of grace, meaning that she administers or dispenses it. So Pope Leo XIII, Iucunda semper, said:

"... when He [the Father] has been invoked with excellent prayers, our humble voice turns to Mary; in accordance with no other law than that law of conciliation and petition which was expressed as follows by St. Bernardine of Siena : 'Every grace that is communicated to this world has a threefold course. For by excellent order, it is dispensed from God to Christ, from Christ to the Virgin, from the Virgin to us.'"

http://www.ewtn.com/faith/teachings/marya4.htm

[Iscool]

We beg you to accept our devotion to you and to your Son.

Why do you guys never pray to Jesus and tell Him, 'We beg you to accept our devotion to you and your Mother'???

[Quix]

[Iscool]

...a doctrine revealed by God and therefore to be believed firmly and constantly by all the faithful

When, where and who was it revealed to??? Or is this revelation a fairy tale???

[wmfights]

Again, the Catholic Church does not teach that we kneel worshipping Mary. That is simply false! We worship God alone, to do otherwise, is a grave sin. Catholics worship God alone. We do NOT worship Mary or the saints or anybody else.

The big lie can be said a lot but it is still a lie.

I see the Mary worship first hand at my son's high school. When they say the "Our Father" it's finished with "Our lady" instead of amen. They built a grotto in front of the school with a statue of Mary in it. RC's come by kneel and pray to her all the time. There is no cross or anything to represent my Lord and Savior. It's easy to see what the emphasis is in Roman Catholicism and it is not Jesus Christ.

I don't dispute the right of RC's to their goddess worship, but to claim it is Christian behavior supported by Scripture is the dividing line. It's clear from reading these threads and seeing the actual practices of RC's that Roman Catholicism is a faith unto itself. Why not step forward and admit it?

[Cronos]

1. Of course, not all of those you linked the post to(1000 silverlings; Alex Murphy; Belteshazzar; bkaycee; blue-duncan; boatbums; caww; ) are not ex-Catholics (I'm pretty sure Belt, caww and boatbums are not, though those are my opinions, so could be wrong)

2. saying have seen many who practice this behavior does not necessarily mean:
 1. All believe this
2. anyone outside the group you have met or knows of believes this
3. This is set doctrine


What you may have observed does not mean that that is set doctrine and it does not mean that All practised what those you observed practise. For example, on this very forum you have many Catholics who do not fit your observations

you cannot paint us with the broad brush of your observations and as I pointed out -- you cannot assume doctrine based on your observations.

in Mass for example, we have praise and worship and all mention and direction is to God alone (Mary is only mentioned if she's in the gospel readings and perhaps in the sermon)

[bkaycee]

The angel saluted Mary by calling her kecharitomene, which Jerome quite accurately translated as gratia plena, "full of grace". (kecharitomene is the perfect passive participle of charitoo, "to grace".)Kecharitomene means "already completely graced as an accomplished fact".

What kind of sinner is "full of grace"?

Acts 6:8 And Stephen, full of grace and power, was performing great wonders and signs among the people.

Wow, who else knew Stephen was also sinless from birth?

Actualy, Stephen was full of Grace AND Power. Mary was only full of Grace.

[Cronos]

met: Your experience as a convert is not the experience of a cradle Catholic.

Cronos: i'm a cradle catholic and so are many others on this forum and our experience mirrors Judith's, not yours. Your experiences are, well, different.
Met: Not for the area I grew up in.

As I said, our experiences differ. Your experiences as a cradle C is quite, quite different from many of the Catholics here -- I don't deny your experience of course, I just point out:
1. Other's have had better experiences
2. your experience does not mean that the doctrine is such
3. your experience does not mean that the majority of folks are like that -- as I said, if a foreigner lived only in Manhattan and thought that represented America, he'd be wrong. If he met another foreigner who lived in downtown San Franscisco and compared notes and said "aha -- another one with the same experience" and concluded that all Americans were like that, they'd both be wrong.

[Mad Dawg]

We don’t?

[caww]

......”Prayers TO the dead are an appeal to an alternative mediator and infusing them with divine attributes. Despite the sophistry which attempts argue otherwise it is idolatry and idolatry is not consistent with recognizing Christ on the exclusive mediator”.......

Exactly! Further praying to the departed is no different than occultists who do likewise...to their “other” entities.

[diamond6]

“Same thing with the pagans.. the ones with various idols..
They are just reminders.. They know stone is stone as well..
All Cargo cults have vehicles with different cargos..”

But the difference is.... they are worshipping one of their gods, we are not. We are simply asking that particular saint to intercede for us/pray FOR us. We are not approaching that statue of the saint, whoever it is, as if he/she is a god. We worship the one true God, only.

[Cronos]

Official dogma as I stated does NOT conflict with other official dogmas and practices

Do you have any official dogmas or proof that contradicts what I posted?

The schema of the Dogmatic Constitution on the Principal Mysteries of the Faith, drafted for the First Vatican Council (1869-1870), includes the unique mediation of Jesus Christ as one of these principal mysteries: "Truly, therefore, Christ Jesus is mediator between God and man, one man dying for all; he made satisfaction to the divine justice for us, and he erased the handwriting that was against us. Despoiling principalities and powers, he brought us from our longstanding slavery into the freedom of sons."

or

The fifth session of the Council of Trent (1546) laid out the belief in Jesus the one true mediator as the norm of Catholic faith: "[Original sin cannot be] taken away through the powers of human nature or through a remedy other than the merit of the one mediator, our Lord Jesus Christ, who reconciled us to God in his blood, having become our justice, and sanctification, and redemption."

I ask you to prove that any of the official Church dogmas teach in any way other than what I have posted.

There aren't any -- the Church believes unambiguously (and you can check all official dogma and doctrine) that Jesus Christ and no other is the one mediator between sinful humanity and the righteous God

There is no sophistry of any sort -- that is plain language.

[Cronos]

The Saints in the OT did not say the Magnificat or reference to Christ in the same way Mary did in the Magnificat (Luke 1:46-55) when she is bearing Jesus Christ -- NOTE: Jesus has not been born yet, He has not yet (in our space-time) been the sacrifice on the Cross she says my spirit rejoices in God, my right NOW Saviour

If you read my following points, they elaborate further

1. We Christians here in Christ's Church, the One Holy Apostolic Catholic Church believe that Jesus Christ, Our Lord and Our God saved Mary, His created being, His mother.

2. We believe that Mary being a daughter of Adam and Eve would have been faithed to have the same "stain" from Original Sin. you believe in that "stain", too, correct?

3. Mary in the Magnificat (Luke 1:46-55) when she is bearing Jesus Christ -- NOTE: Jesus has not been born yet, He has not yet (in our space-time) been the sacrifice on the Cross she says my spirit rejoices in God, my right NOW Saviour

4. Note: Mary does not say "my spirit rejoices in God, my future Saviour", but she says "in Deo salvatore meo,", "my current Saviour",

5. Mary clearly indicates that God (Jesus Christ) has already saved her. How is that possible if he has not yet been on the Cross or even been born yet?

6. This very clearly indicates that Mary needed a savior too and her Savior saved Her somehow even before He was born

7. The only conclusion is that somehow before His work on the Cross, Christ already saved his created being, His mother, mary.

8. The logical conclusion is He protected her from sin and in fact "saved" her from sin even before He was born.

[bkaycee]

on this thread itself there is represented a couple of dozen pretty active Catholics that know quite a bit and read the Bible regularly.

And there are many more silent Catholic readers on this forum and many, many more CAtholics in the real world who do far more than "crack open" a Bible but diligently study The Word of God and grew deeper in Christ, in His Catholic Faith.

I can also attest that in attending mass for 27 years and 12 years of Catholic parochial school with daily catechism class, I cannot recall seeing anyone bring a bible to Mass, school or catechism classes. There were no pew bibles in church, I was never castigated for not having a bible or not reading the bible. I do not recall ever being told to read the bible by any priest, nun, parent or lay adult that we had daily contact with.

While I am sure that your experience with a dozen or so online Catholic friends is different, I think it is clear that bible reading is NOT a high priority in the RCC.

[Cronos]

Among the linguists who support the North Caucasian hypothesis, the main split between Northeast Caucasian and Northwest Caucasian is considered uncontroversial. Problems arise when it gets to the internal structure of Northeast Caucasian itself. So far no general agreement has been reached in this respect. The following classification is based on Nikolayev & Starostin (1994):

1. North Caucasian

1.1. Abkhazo-Adyghean

1.2. Hattic

1.3. Nakh-Daghestanian

1.3.1. Nakh

1.3.2. Hurro-Urartian

1.3.3. Daghestanian

1.3.3.1. Avar-Andi-Dido

1.3.3.2. Lak-Dargwa

1.3.3.3. Lezgic

The main perceived similarities between the two phyla lie in their phonological systems.

However, their grammars are quite different. Both phyla are characterised by high levels of phonetic complexity, including the widespread usage of complexity, including the widespread usage of secondary articulation. Ubykh (Northwest) has 84 consonants, and Archi (Northeast) is thought to have 76. A list of possible cognates has been proposed. However, most of them may be loanwords or simply coincidences, since most of the morphemes in both phyla are quite short (often just a single consonant).

[caww]

The fact you “approach” a statue made of plaster or wood, is the first step taken which makes it idolotry.... it represents a departed individual who has no power or authority to assist.

God made it clear right from the beginning......”You shall not ‘make’ for yourself an idol in the ‘Form’ of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath, or in the waters below”.....”You shall not BOW DOWN to them....” Ex 20:3

The next step is those who do BOW Down before them....the Pope does so frequently...and even kisses these blocks of wood and plaster....for that matter he even kissed the Koran.

What then is the purpose of bowing down before these statues...which is exactly what pagans do. To call it something other than what it is is deceptive and a lie...and we know who the Father of lies is.

Catholics who do this have been deceived.