Are You More Blessed Than the Virgin Mary?

Desiring God ^ | 12/15/2010 | Jonathan Parnell

[caww]

....”I think it is clear that bible reading is NOT a high priority in the RCC’.......

Which has also been my experience in conversations with catholics for the most part. But they have memorized many prayers and writings of literature the church presents...and so not a wonder at all they cannot tell the difference between false teachings and truth...they have no standard, other than what they are spoon fed from the church leadership and the mass productions of literature they flood the peoples minds with..

[Cronos]

None of these negates that Church believes Jesus Christ and no other is the one mediator between sinful humanity and the righteous God.
and

The fifth session of the Council of Trent (1546) laid out the belief in Jesus the one true mediator as the norm of Catholic faith: "[Original sin cannot be] taken away through the powers of human nature or through a remedy other than the merit of the one mediator, our Lord Jesus Christ, who reconciled us to God in his blood, having become our justice, and sanctification, and redemption."

1. in suffering with him -- so, she suffered alongside him -- His suffering and sacrifice is what saved us
2. She co-operated in the work -- so too do you co-operate with Christ when you pray and follow His gospel
3. you need to link "this saving function, " with the this referred which is "This motherhood of Mary in the economy of grace"
4. "but by her manifold intercession," contains the same significance as you interceeding with God for someone else, as in you praying to God for someone else
5. "she continues to win the gifts" -- note: She wins it. From whom? From God, from the Sole Mediator between sinful humanity and righteous God -- her Son, Our Lord and God, Jesus Christ.
6. "was associated with " -- note that this is commentary, not dogma.

7. Remember that Christ, the God-man, is the sole mediator between God and man (or woman) -- no woman or man can go to the Father excerpt through Him

Remember that Jesus is the vine, the source of grace. Yet we have Eph 4:39 Let no evil speech proceed from your mouth; but that which is good, to the edification of faith, that it may administer grace to the hearers.

[Cronos]

Dear wmfights — the end of “Our Father” finishes with Amen. You need to hear it and see that post that they will say the Our Lady namely the Hail Marys. I’d urge you to listen to it clearly the next time.

[caww]

It is a hard thing for catholics to put away the pacifiers which give them a false sense of comfort wmfights. Children suck on these but there is no nourishment given them though it appeases the child for a time. Eventually the childs body cries out for more....the body knows it’s not enough.

[Cronos]

Campion pointed out a difference between full of grace and Kecharitomene which means “already completely graced as an accomplished fact”. Like a filled up glass filled to overflowing being compared to a full glass.

[Cronos]

Again — that is your experience. I have had different — and since I’m 32, I could assume that this may be due to a generational difference as well — check the modern Church, do listen to a confirmation class nowadays.

[Cronos]

Yes, exactly, for RN to say The ark is a type of CHRIST makes one wonder if she believes in

We Believe in One Lord Jesus Christ
The Only Son of God
Eternally Begotten of the Father
God from God, Light from Light
True God from True God
Begotten, Not Made
One in Being (homoousia) with the Father
Through Him All Things Were Made

To say that the ark was Christ in any way is to deny the Divinity-Humanity nature of Christ.

if you compare the two

the Ark of the Old Covenant

• a container for the Word written down by Moses.
• Not God, just a container, something created
• Not God, just a container, filled with the grace of God
• Not a sacrifice, not a teacher, not a preacher

Christ

• God and man
• 100% God and 100% man, not a container, not a phantom, not just a spirit, but God in flesh
• The Word incarnate, not a container for the Word
• Begotten not made, not created -- not a creature
• Preacher, teacher, Lord, God, not a container, not a created being

To say that the ark was Christ in any way is to deny the Divinity-Humanity nature of Christ.

Do you, Rn:

• Think that Jesus Christ was just a container for God, not actually God in flesh?
• Think that Jesus Christ was created by God, just a creature, not God?
• Think that Jesus Christ is akin to the ark, a created thing, not God?

[Iscool]

4. Note: Mary does not say "my spirit rejoices in God, my future Saviour", but she says "in Deo salvatore meo,", "my current Saviour",

5. Mary clearly indicates that God (Jesus Christ) has already saved her. How is that possible if he has not yet been on the Cross or even been born yet?

6. This very clearly indicates that Mary needed a savior too and her Savior saved Her somehow even before He was born

7. The only conclusion is that somehow before His work on the Cross, Christ already saved his created being, His mother, mary.

8. The logical conclusion is He protected her from sin and in fact "saved" her from sin even before He was born.

Fortunately, God provided so we don't have to rely on our/your own failed logic...

1Co 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
1Co 1:19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.

1Co 2:5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

Put down and back away from that catechism and pick up a bible...You then won't ask these silly questions...

Luk 1:47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.
Luk 1:48 For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.

Mary wasn't referring to Jesus, the 2nd part of the Trinity...She was speaking of God the Almighty as her Saviour...

Luk 1:49 For he that is mighty hath done to me great things; and holy is his name.
Luk 1:50 And his mercy is on them that fear him from generation to generation.

Mary was speaking of the Saviour of Israel, Almighty God...And not that she already had been saved, but the Saviour was well known to many around her...

1Co 1:31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord, not Mary.

[caww]

What is a "dead person living in heaven"? Are they dead or not?

Twisted Rome teaching used to support keeping it's membership in bondage... and the Vaticans coffers flowing with funds from the many who purchase catholic idols.

Scripture is clear we are not to attempt contact with the departed......they do not have a spirit which moves on earth..unlike Christ who moves thru His Holy Spirit on our behalf. However demons do masqurade as "angels of light"...because it works to deceive the uninformed.

[Iscool]

Though of course, the question is when is the end-times era?

The Catholic religion has unwittingly given us the answer...

The Middle ages are from 500 AD to 1500 AD...Thus, the beginning of the (church) Age is from 0 to 500 AD, give or take a few...Obviously then the end is approximately 500 years past the end of the Middle Ages, give or take a few years...Know where that puts ya???

[wmfights]

Well said, who knows maybe they'll hear The Gospel and believe.

[maryz]

If the church was doing such a spectacular job catechizing its adherents, why do so many Catholics vote liberal?

Mostly because the liberals are the only ones running who express concern for the weak, the poor, the disabled, etc. Granted, they're lying, and granted further that these Catholics don't know any economics, but neither do the bishops. And the Republicans don't seem inclined to explain (or to do much about abortion either, possibly because their big contributors are either pro-abortion or don't care about it).

[Iscool]

Please do read the Catechism -- highlighted in chapter 846 that states that How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Reformulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body"

Please, do read the Bible...All salvation comes from Christ the Head and the saved become His Body, the church...

Salvation does NOT come thru the Body after it leaves the Head...

And you forgot to mention the Neck...According to you guys, the Neck is not part of the Body...The Neck is Mary... :(

[Belteshazzar]

In response to metmom Cronos wrote:
“What you may have observed does not mean that that is set doctrine and it does not mean that All practised what those you observed practise. For example, on this very forum you have many Catholics who do not fit your observations. You cannot paint us with the broad brush of your observations and as I pointed out — you cannot assume doctrine based on your observations. In Mass for example, we have praise and worship and all mention and direction is to God alone (Mary is only mentioned if she’s in the gospel readings and perhaps in the sermon).”

I do not disbelieve what you say about your own experience, Cronos, or the experience of people you know, perhaps, very well. However, here is the problem as I see it. It is threefold. First, human experience and memory are very subjective things, something that Catholics generally point out regularly when speaking to Protestants. Second, and corollary to the first point, the Catholic Church is supposed to be monolithic, united in doctrine, which is its supposed great strength as compared to the manifestly fractured nature of Protestantism. What you are suggesting here in this post is that Catholicism is in fact, beneath its superficial appearance of unity in doctrine, quite badly fractured itself. Third, the prayer of Pius XII, cited by metmom in a recent post and copied again below for ease of reference, completely contradicts the assertion of your last sentence or, at least, makes it look like the parish where you regularly worship is quite out of sync with the highest authorities of the Catholic Church.

The previous citation of metmom:

Prayer of Pope Pius XII

Enraptured by the splendor of your heavenly beauty, and impelled by the anxieties of the world, we cast ourselves into your arms, O Immaculate Mother of Jesus and our Mother, Mary, confident of finding in your most loving heart appeasement of our ardent desires, and a safe harbor from the tempests which beset us on every side.

Though degraded by our faults and overwhelmed by infinite misery, we admire and praise the peerless richness of sublime gifts with which God has filled you, above every other mere creature, from the first moment of your conception until the day on which, after your assumption into heaven, He crowned you Queen of the Universe.

O crystal fountain of faith, bathe our minds with the eternal truths! O fragrant Lily of all holiness, captivate our hearts with your heavenly perfume! O Conqueress of evil and death, inspire in us a deep horror of sin, which makes the soul detestable to God and a slave of hell!

O well-beloved of God, hear the ardent cry which rises up from every heart. Bend tenderly over our aching wounds. Convert the wicked, dry the tears of the afflicted and oppressed, comfort the poor and humble, quench hatreds, sweeten harshness, safeguard the flower of purity in youth, protect the holy Church, make all men feel the attraction of Christian goodness. In your name, resounding harmoniously in heaven, may they recognize that they are brothers, and that the nations are members of one family, upon which may there shine forth the sun of a universal and sincere peace.

Receive, O most sweet Mother, our humble supplications, and above all obtain for us that, one day, happy with you, we may repeat before your throne that hymn which today is sung on earth around your altars: You are all-beautiful, O Mary! You are the glory, you are the joy, you are the honor of our people! Amen.

[Natural Law]

"What is it that Roman Catholics expect with they quote protestants in this fashion?"

It is not to convince you, but to impeach the position that your view is "stare decisis". It shows that there is not even unanimity between the garden variety Protestant and the Fathers of the Reformation on the most basic of issues of theology and dogma. In the absence of any authority, as Luther feared, every milkmaid and farmhand thinks they interpret scripture correctly.

It all points to a corruption of the concept of Sola Fide in which belief alone has morphed into what every I believe is enough...Sola Puto.

[hosepipe]

[ We are not approaching that statue of the saint, whoever it is, as if he/she is a god. We worship the one true God, only. ]

As long as that works for you... go for it..
You see what you see.. I see what I see..

Same could be said for Mormons, JW's, or Scientologists..
OR Buddhists, Animists or other Totem, Amulet, and Talisman worshipers..

Everyone does the best they can with what they have to work with..

[xone]

we have many Protestants who believe the same as we do that Mary was filled with grace more than other creatures. Lutherans

If your #152 is an example of 'what Catholics believe about Mary', you must be joking about what Lutherans believe.

[Iscool]

Receive, O most sweet Mother, our humble supplications, and above all obtain for us that, one day, happy with you, we may repeat before your throne that hymn which today is sung on earth around your altars: You are all-beautiful, O Mary! You are the glory, you are the joy, you are the honor of our people! Amen.

Didn't these Catholics just tell us that they don't pray to Mary; they only ask Mary and their Saints to pray to God for them???

[maryz]

I cannot recall seeing anyone bring a bible to Mass, school or catechism classes

Why would you expect anyone to bring a Bible to Mass? They're there to attend Mass -- to share in offering the Eternal Sacrifice of the Son, to follow the Mass prayers; we don't bring the works of the Church Fathers either.

Same with school (you mean to read during a boring math class?) and catechism class, where you study the catechism.

[topcat54]

It is not to convince you, but to impeach the position that your view is "stare decisis".

I don’t think I have ever claimed anything akin to stare decisis for my position on this matter. See my previous response about errant councils. It is the RC potion that is more akin to stare decisis, seeking, as it were, binding confirmation in the form of past precedent.

Original intent is sometimes a tricky thing to discern, but relying on bad past decisions is not the way to get there. I admit that sometimes there was just a touch too much Rome left in Luther and other reformers.