Posted on 01/14/2011 5:57:52 PM PST by topcat54
Evangelical book catalogs promote books such as Planet Earth: The Final Chapter, The Great Escape, and the Left Behind series. Bumper stickers warn us that the vehicle’s occupants may disappear at any moment. It is clear that there is a preoccupation with the idea of a secret rapture. Perhaps this has become more pronounced recently due to the expectation of a new millennium and the fears regarding potential Y2K problems. Perhaps psychologically people are especially receptive to the idea of an imminent, secret rapture at the present time. Additionally, many Christians are not aware that any other position relative to the second coming of Jesus Christ exists. Even in Reformed circles there are numerous people reading these books. Many of these people are unaware that this viewpoint conflicts with Scripture and Reformed Theology.
(Excerpt) Read more at reformed.org ...
And we can raise you a corrupt pope or ten.....
Top 10 Most Wicked Popes
http://listverse.com/2007/08/17/top-10-most-wicked-popes/
Do you have so little on Calvin that you have to go digging back in his family for something to use against him?
Unlike the gracious loving Roam Catholic church who brought us the Inquisition.
And who's popes have said, "http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/b8-unam.html"
Pope Boniface VIII says....*Therefore whoever resists this power thus ordained by God, resists the ordinance of God [Rom 13:2], unless he invent like Manicheus two beginnings, which is false and judged by us heretical, since according to the testimony of Moses, it is not in the beginnings but in the beginning that God created heaven and earth [Gen 1:1]. Furthermore, we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff.*
And Catholics who say that whoever is baptized, no matter when or where or by whom is by default a Catholic?
Or Catholics who say once a Catholic always a Catholic?
Catholics and Catholicism are in no position to be pointing fingers and condemning others of trying to control them.
Talk about control. Be subject to the Roman pontiff or burn for eternity?!?!?!
Sounds like your average modern day evolutionist. Dawkins and his ilk come immediately to mind.
And they say that *science* is not a religion.
right.....
Yeah. I mean really. Atheists have such a better track record.
Like Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Kim Jong Il, Castro......
Obey the commands of the OPC Catholic church cult leaders.
CONTROL !!
is what the OPC Catholic church cult wants
To re-create the police state of Geneva Rome is their aim
That is why the OPC Calvinist Catholic church could say
Christianity= Calvinism Catholicism
Wow. The Roman Catholicsmhave some real projection issues, no?
:)
Hoss
Ya think?
Romans 2:1 Therefore you have no excuse, O man, every one of you who judges. For in passing judgment on another you condemn yourself, because you, the judge, practice the very same things.
I’m sure that Calvin was much shorter and more plastic than this.
The correct terminology is born from above.
Or that the work of God is to believe Him (John 6) Or that salvation is through faith (Luke 18, John 3)
Either your catechesis was execrable or your learning was.
And where did Jesus instruct us to pray to those canonized as saints and to Mary?
Why are you worried about Jesus? Don't you mean Paul? 2 Corinthians: 13 Through the evidence of this service, you are glorifying God for your obedient confession of the gospel of Christ and the generosity of your contribution to them and to all others, 14 while in prayer on your behalf they long for you, because of the surpassing grace of God upon you.
Or to establish a new system of works by which to earn our salvation?
Hardly new and works do not earn salvation. However, I suggest that you begin with Matthew 5 and read through until Matthew 8 for further education.
So establish a new tradition to replace the one He spend three years condemning because it nullified God’s word?
It is the Reformation that established a new tradition.
Where did Jesus instruct us to canonize saints to begin with?
Canonization is the recognition of those who have led holy lives and therefore are most probably in Heaven. If you do not wish to consider that individuals may be in Heaven now, that is your privilege. We Christians would recognize those who lead Christian lives.
The Catholic church of course ignores Scripture it finds inconvenient. That’s why, even though Peter called Paul’s writings *Scripture* the Catholic church dismisses them as insignificant.
False. Paul is, with Peter, what we consider to be the greatest of the Apostles. We do not dismiss his writings as insignificant. We do dismiss the writings of Calvin and his successors as insignificant, though, if that is what you are referring to.
Neither. Examination of the best sources that we have do not permit it to be called infallible. However, it is close enough to be interpreted through the Church infallibly.
So? I'm a computer analyst who deals with a great deal in statistical data. I to am interested in facts where facts matters. So let's look at the facts. You state that you believe in the infallible word of God. Then you state that we don't really have the word of God as it exist. Then you state that the Nicene Council agree on the word of God. Then you state that you appreciate kosta's view on how scripture develop even though he doesn't agree on the infallibility or inerrancy of scripture. Those are the facts. So for someone to tell me they're interested in facts, don't these facts seem a bit inconsistent?
Big deal. You can manipulate anything with statistics. The facts as we know them are that there were the original writings of whomever wrote them in Greek. Then they were manipulated over the first three centuries in Greek. Then they were chosen by the Church at Nicea. Then they were translated into Latin. Then they were translated into various languages including English. If you have ever dealt with translations from foreign languages, you will appreciate that they are approximate and not the real thing.
We don't have the Ten Commandments written by God's finger from Mount Sinai. Yet we know what the Ten Commandments are. The Nicene Council was formed in 325AD. They knew they had the infallible word of God otherwise they wouldn't have said so, isn't that correct? The Church can't be wrong, can it?
Who's we? If you look at a Protestant Bible, the 10 Commandments are written slightly differently from the Catholic one. The Church is not wrong and it is disingenuous to pick and choose the points where you consider the Church to be correct and to gainsay it on other points. What gives you the authority to do so? Are you being your own Pope in declaring doctrine?
And the Church was condemned by the church...
Wherever have you been? We need a bit of insanity in this discussion.
The mystery of the Gospel of the Grace of God was given to Paul to bring to the church...Jesus did not teach anyone the Gospel of the Grace of God...Paul did...
And just when I thought that the discussion was serious.
To Paul it was given to explain the workings of the church and it requirements and responsibilities...Jesus didn't do it; He had been resurrected...
What's the point of Jesus anyway, right?
It was given to Paul by Jesus to teach the church on this side of the Cross the new revelations of Jesus...The adoption of the Gentiles, the Gospel of the Grace of God, the Rapture, Faith without works, the Body of Christ, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in the believer, the Judgment Seat of Christ, etc...
I see. So we should pray in the name of Paul, not Jesus, right?
None of these things were revealed by Jesus while He was on the earth...These things are all on this side of the Cross...Your religion is stuck on the other side of the Cross...
Yeah, we're kinda funny that way - we believe in Christ.
You all will be judged by your works...We have been judged already; and found to be just...Jesus made the complete payment for us, in full...
Just make sure that it's not in Weimar Republic marks.
It's almost funny but actually really sad to see people who are stuck on the wrong side of the Cross try to explain the scriptures to those of us on this side of the Cross...
From your explanations, I'd expect that you guys are on the right side of the bar with a very active bartender.
Not according to the Catholic church. From Catholic answers.com.... http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2005/0510fr.asp
What are you talking about? The Word of God is Jesus. He is infallible. You guys are crazy to think that Catholics think that Jesus is fallible. We don't.
The interpretation of the word of God is infallible. That is the Catholic belief.
And a wrong one at that.
We wrote it, we harmonized it, we chose it and we interpret it. You gave all that up when you walked away from it.
Nor do Catholics have the original. They didn't write the Septuagint either. The Catholic Bible is a translation of a translation.
The Catholic Bible is in Greek with a translation into Latin and into Church Slavonic. There is no Catholic that claims differently.
So the very criticism you level against the *Protestant* Bible applies at least equally to your own. On one hand, you appeal to the fact that Protestants do not have the original manuscripts in your argument against Protestants use of Scripture. OTOH, Catholics appeal to that very same Scripture, which is no more certain, to support their most cherished doctrines.
We wrote it, we harmonized it, we chose it and we interpret it. Anything else is the province of fallible men, of whom you seem so enamoured that you walked away from the Church of Jesus Christ. It's hypocritical to demand to have it both ways. It's disingenuous to try to use Scripture from sources you demean and expect others to accept them as authoritative after trashing the sources.
I demean nothing. Individuals interpreting Scripture are invalid, according to Scripture.
Therefore, all the doctrines that the Catholic church appeals to Scripture for authority of, like the papacy, and apostolic succession, the institution of the priesthood, their ability to forgive sins, etc, are all built on unreliable documents (by your argument) and therefore are no more certain that that.
Without the Holy Spirit and the Magisterium, individuals interpreting Scripture are as the Eunuch; looking at words and understanding nothing. It is only by (rather poorly) imitating the Church that the Protestants actually have anything coherent at all. Look at the Pentecostals or the Branch Davidians as examples of individuals interpreting Scripture.
Very good. I ask you for your understanding of Paulician versus Pauline and you show me this. Next?
That is exactly what you asked.
Who r what decided to interpret the teachings of Jesus to come up with Catholic theology? I want YOUR answer.
The Church beginning with the Apostles. I have no idea who started your church or when, but they do not have the authority to interpret Scripture any more than the eunuch did.
That does not ensure that they will follow.
May God have mercy on us all. Yet most of us do not have our own created pocket God that is identical to the image we see in the mirror; that is reserved for those who would create God in their own image and would give them (the elite) salvation and deny it to everyone else. The high school student council mentality.
Very true, and yet their lap dogs insist that it is Catholics who demand control.
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