This dates from 1432 and is in Ghent. The mystical nature of the Eucharist as being a way in we IN time, participate in an event which is in the past in our timeline and yet ETERNAL for God is one that dates back
Posted on 01/21/2011 12:26:40 PM PST by marshmallow
The Catholic doctrine of the Eucharist is a real stumbling block to some Protestants who are seriously considering Catholicism. It was for me too, until I explored the subject, historically and scripturally. What follows is a summary of my deliberations.
Catholicism holds that bread and wine literally become the body and blood of Christ when they are consecrated by the priest celebrating the Mass. Oftentimes non-Catholics get hung up on the term transubstantiation, the name for the philosophical theory that the Church maintains best accounts for the change at consecration. The Church’s explanation of transubstantiation was influenced by Aristotle’s distinction between substance and accident.
Aristotle (384-322 B.C.), like most philosophers of his time, wanted to account for how things change and yet remain the same. So, for example, a “substance” like an oak tree remains the same while undergoing “accidental” changes. It begins as an acorn and eventually develops roots, a trunk, branches, and leaves. During all these changes, the oak tree remains identical to itself. Its leaves change from green to red and brown, and eventually fall off. But these accidental changes occur while the substance of the tree remains.
On the other hand, if we chopped down the tree and turned into a desk, that would be a substantial change, since the tree would literally cease to be and its parts would be turned into something else, a desk. According to the Church, when the bread and wine become the body and blood of Christ, the accidents of the bread and wine do not change, but the substance of each changes. So, it looks, tastes, feels, and smells like bread and wine, but it literally has been changed into the body and blood of Christ. That’s transubstantiation.
There are several reasons why it would be a mistake to dismiss transubstantiation simply because of the influence of Aristotle on its formulation. First, Eastern Churches in communion with the Catholic Church rarely employ this Aristotelian language, and yet the Church considers their celebration of the Eucharist perfectly valid. Second, the Catholic Church maintains that the divine liturgies celebrated in the Eastern Churches not in communion with Rome (commonly called “Eastern Orthodoxy”) are perfectly valid as well, even though the Eastern Orthodox rarely employ the term transubstantiation. Third, the belief that the bread and wine are literally transformed into Christ’s body and blood predates Aristotle’s influence on the Church’s theology by over 1000 years. For it was not until the thirteenth century, and the ascendancy of St. Thomas Aquinas’ thought, that Aristotle’s categories were employed by the Church in its account of the Eucharist. In fact, when the Fourth Lateran Council (1215) employed the language of substantial change, St. Thomas had not even been born!
It was that third point that I found so compelling and convinced me that the Catholic view of the Eucharist was correct. It did not take long for me to see that Eucharistic realism (as I like to call it) had been uncontroversially embraced deep in Christian history. This is why Protestant historian, J. N. D. Kelly, writes: “Eucharistic teaching, it should be understood at the outset, was in general unquestioningly realist, i.e., the consecrated bread and wine were taken to be, and were treated and designated as, the Savior’s body and blood.” I found it in many of the works of the Early Church Fathers, including St. Ignatius of Antioch (A.D. 110), St. Justin Martyr (A.D. 151), St. Cyprian of Carthage, (A. D. 251), First Council of Nicaea (A. D. 325), St. Cyril of Jerusalem (A. D. 350), and St. Augustine of Hippo (A. D. 411) . These are, of course, not the only Early Church writings that address the nature of the Eucharist. But they are representative.
This should, however, not surprise us, given what the Bible says about the Lord’s Supper. When Jesus celebrated the Last Supper with his disciples (Mt. 26:17-30; Mk. 14:12-25; Lk. 22:7-23), which we commemorate at Holy Communion, he referred to it as a Passover meal. He called the bread and wine his body and blood. In several places, Jesus is called the Lamb of God (John 1: 29, 36; I Peter 1:19; Rev. 5:12). Remember, when the lamb is killed for Passover, the meal participants ingest the lamb. Consequently, St. Paul’s severe warnings about partaking in Holy Communion unworthily only make sense in light of Eucharistic realism (I Cor. 10:14-22; I Cor. 11:17-34). He writes: “The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ? . . . Whoever, therefore eats and drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord.” (I Cor. 10:16; 11:27)
In light of all these passages and the fact that Jesus called himself the bread of life (John 6:41-51) and that he said that his followers must “eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood” (John 6:53), the Eucharistic realism of the Early Church, the Eastern Churches (both in and out of communion with Rome), and the pre-Reformation medieval Church (fifth to sixteenth centuries) seems almost unremarkable. So, what first appeared to be a stumbling block was transformed into a cornerstone.
Francis J. Beckwith is Professor of Philosophy and Church-State Studies at Baylor University. He tells the story of his journey from Catholicism to Protestantism and back again in his book, Return to Rome: Confessions of An Evangelical Catholic. He blogs at Return to Rome.
>> “The Vatican Alice In Wonderland School Of Theology And Reality Mangling” <<
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We should begin posting that very descriptive phrase as a universal reply to their every post.
Then we can all be chronos in ‘spirit.’
When one comes to these posts, one has to be well prepared, with a good pair of hip boots...
Exo 12:26 And it shall come to pass, when your children shall say unto you, What mean ye by this service?
Exo 12:27 That ye shall say, It is the sacrifice of the LORD'S passover, who passed over the houses of the children of Israel in Egypt, when he smote the Egyptians, and delivered our houses. And the people bowed the head and worshipped.
This apparently is a cut and paste by you as something put out by your religion...Don't you think God gets a little ticked off by you guys misleading people about what God says???
Whether you approach this question from the Greek or Hebrew side, the result supports the notion of the Real Presence. When Paul quotes Jesus as saying eis ten emen anamnesin, he understands the meaning both in Greek and Hebrew senses. When Jesus said, "do this eis ten emen anamensin," he was not saying to simply remember him. He was telling his twelve apostles to perform the same actions that he did in order to bring the reality of him back to this world.
I need a raft...The hip boots ain't high enough...
You guys apparently have no fear that the Catholic masses will search the scriptures and find out how badly they are being duped...
{{{ “The Vatican Alice In Wonderland School Of Theology And Reality Mangling” }}}
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We should begin posting that very descriptive phrase as a universal reply to their every post.
Then we can all be chronos in ‘spirit.’
LOL.
Far be it from me to question the “anointed wisdom” of editor-surveyor on THAT score! LOL.
[prying fingers out of cheek]
LUB BRO
Heb 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
IT ENDED...We Christians are NOW sanctified thru the offering which took place 2000 years ago, once for all...
Why must your religion continue to make a liar out of God???
That offering took place 2000 years ago...It is impossible that any church could participate in that offering today...
Jesus is NOT still offering Himself to God...Jesus is sitting at the right hand of God in a Glorified, Eternal Body...Jesus is done being sacrificed...God provided the Sacrifice...
There's no human being or religion of the face of the earth that could offer Jesus as a sacrifice for anything...
Jesus was offered as a sacrifice for you by God...Now, you are going to offer Jesus as a sacrifice to God??? Who are you offering the sacrifice for???
Knew it had to be old...Mary isn't in the picture...
All this nonsense about swimming the Tiber looks a lot like the US-Mexican border. There’s a lot more heading out of Mexico (Rome) than are heading in.
The problem with this idea “The Mass is a participation in this one heavenly offering. The risen Christ becomes present on the altar and offers himself to God as a living sacrifice” is that at the time Jesus spoke those words the heavenly offering of himself had not yet taken place so Jesus spoke of what was going to place in the immediate future, “..which is to be” given.
The sacrifice was made and Christ appeared before God on our behalf, the offering was accepted and Christ sat down on his throne. (Heb. 10:12) He doesn’t remain on the altar anymore than an animal sacrifice was left on the altar forever.
“Like the Mass, Christ words at the Last Supper are words of sacrifice,” yet the only place Christ’s sacrifice could be offered was in heaven according to Heb 9:24.
As Heb. 10:18 says, our sins have been forgiven, there is no more offering for sin. Christ is not still impaled or suffering for our sins.
To get around the fact that the last supper was a memorial meal not a sacrifice the “out of time, he was sacrificed before he died” argument is now pressed into service as though there was no order of events in the stream of time.
The one and only altar that Christ sacrifice could be offered on is in heaven and no where does Scripture say he is offered or present in a wafer and wine to be offered on an earthly altar. Quite the contrary.
1Co 11:24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.
1Co 11:25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.
1Co 11:26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.
It's pretty simple...You are in a church, a body of believers...You break the bread to show Jesus' broken body on the Cross...You eat the bread which represents Jesus' broken body...You drink the cup which represents Jesus' shed blood...
But how does eating and drinking proclaim the Lord’s death as verse 26 says?
IF you don't get it, perhaps you should pray about it...Jesus says that when you do this,
1Co 11:26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.
I don't have to question Him...I just have to believe Him...
1. There is only one altar on earth where blood sacrifices to God can be made.
Then there shall be a place which the LORD your God shall choose to cause his name to dwell there; thither shall ye bring all that I command you; your burnt offerings, and your sacrifices, your tithes, and the heave offering of your hand, and all your choice vows which ye vow unto the LORD: - Deut 12:11
And the altars that [were] on the top of the upper chamber of Ahaz, which the kings of Judah had made, and the altars which Manasseh had made in the two courts of the house of the LORD, did the king beat down, and brake [them] down from thence, and cast the dust of them into the brook Kidron. – II Kings 23:12
But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than [that of] Abel. - Hebrews 12:22-24
We have an altar, whereof they have no right to eat which serve the tabernacle. For the bodies of those beasts, whose blood is brought into the sanctuary by the high priest for sin, are burned without the camp. Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate. Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach.
For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come.
By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of [our] lips giving thanks to his name. But to do good and to communicate forget not: for with such sacrifices God is well pleased. – Hebrews 13:9-16
Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared; Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec. Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing. – Hebrews 5:5-11
As a man, Christ’s lineage was Judah, not Aaron. More importantly, Christ is God. He is divine.
Melchizedek was not a mortal priest either and his priesthood preceded the Levitical priesthood.
The priesthood of Christ is unchangeable and endless.
For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law. For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar. For [it is] evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.
And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest, Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life. For he testifieth, Thou [art] a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof. For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope [did]; by the which we draw nigh unto God.
And inasmuch as not without an oath [he was made priest]: (For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou [art] a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec:)
By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament. And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death: But this [man], because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.
Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them. For such an high priest became us, [who is] holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens; Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.
For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, [maketh] the Son, who is consecrated for evermore. – Hebrews 7:11-28
And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he [was] the priest of the most high God. And he blessed him, and said, Blessed [be] Abram of the most high God, possessor of heaven and earth: And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithes of all. – Genesis 14:18
4. The sacrifice - the Blood of the Lamb - is not like physical blood – it never runs out, never fades, never weakens, never fails.
But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. – I John 1:15
And from Jesus Christ, [who is] the faithful witness, [and] the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, - Revelation 1:5
And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. – Revelation 7:14
From Corinthians in context (emphasis mine):
The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ? For we [being] many are one bread, [and] one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread. – I Cor 10:16-17
For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the [same] night in which he was betrayed took bread: And when he had given thanks, he brake [it], and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. After the same manner also [he took] the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink [it], in remembrance of me. For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come. – I Cor 11:23-26
But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of [that] bread, and drink of [that] cup. For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. For this cause many [are] weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world. - I Cor 11:28-32
For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also [is] Christ. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles, whether [we be] bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. For the body is not one member, but many. - I Cor 12:12-14
Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular. – I Cor 12:27
For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. – Ephesians 5:30
And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence. – Colossians 1:18
For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office: So we, [being] many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another. – Romans 12:4-5
But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us. [We are] troubled on every side, yet not distressed; [we are] perplexed, but not in despair; Persecuted, but not forsaken; cast down, but not destroyed; Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body. For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh. – 2 Cor 4:7-11
The LORD [is] in his holy temple, the LORD'S throne [is] in heaven: his eyes behold, his eyelids try, the children of men. - Psalms 11:4
And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail. - Revelation 11:19
In at least two of your posts including this one you have lifted whole sections from the writings of authors without any attribution and posted them as your own. That is not only unethical but could subject FreeRepublic to civil liability.
http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/1999/9901fea2.asp
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2661138/posts?page=880#880
http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2001/0109sbs.asp
Do not post to me again.
Post the source information for 878 and any other posts in this sidebar where you have quoted another website. If I do not see source information by this evening, I will be removing any post which appears to be an excerpt.
So now a painting, conceived and executed by a medieval painter is explaining “out of time”? A painting which is rather like a collage of ideas?
“This dates from 1432 and is in Ghent. The mystical nature of the Eucharist as being a way in we IN time, participate in an event which is in the past in our timeline and yet ETERNAL for God is one that dates back”
What sort of ‘mumbo jumbo’ is this? Christ says, “It is finished”, God says, “Not so fast! Stay right there eternally and suffer for man’s sin”?
What “mystical nature”? What’s the mystery and where do the Scriptures call it such?
Rome is one giant PR firm and property management company masquerading as a world religion.
The truth is far different. Although Protestants have always outnumbered Roman Catholics in the United States by a wide margin, now even those who refer to themselves as "Evangelicals" outnumber Roman Catholics...
Although one in three Americans are raised Roman Catholic, only one in four adults describe themselves as such, despite the huge numbers of immigrants swelling American churches, researchers said. "Immigration is what is keeping them afloat"... Evangelical Christianity has become the largest religious tradition in this country, supplanting Roman Catholicism, which is slowly bleeding members, according to a survey released yesterday by the Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life...
and...
Those who have left Catholicism outnumber those who have joined the Catholic Church by nearly a four-to-one margin.
And from here we learn that...
No other religion in the United States has lost more members to other faiths, or to no faith at all, than Catholicism, according to the new survey released by the Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life. The survey, conducted in 2007, found that 31 percent of Americans were raised Catholic, but less than 25 per cent of them still identify as Catholic...In the marketplace, of American faith, Catholicism is the big loser.
So among all the sturm und drang, there is good news. Really good news. Many of these ex-RCs may join mega churches and receive milk rather than meat, but it's a positive trajectory and God willing, their appetite for the truth of Scripture will continue to grow and be satisfied by Christ alone.
As God wills.
"So mightily grew the word of God and prevailed." -- Acts 19:20
ROTFL!
There’s at least three more.....
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