Whew, just in the nick of time, too.
Posted on 07/25/2011 10:34:37 AM PDT by greyfoxx39
Jesus taught: "I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye canniot bear them now. Howbeit when He, the Spirit of truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth" (John 16:12-13). When people gather in the name of Christ to advance His cause, the Spirit can, through their prayerful deliberations, guide them. Interactions in the Spirit are mind-expanding, soul-inspiring experiences. The Acts of the Apostles demonstrate that church conferences helped the church stay focused on its service to Christ. They could be contentious, at times, but a good course of action would usually prevail. Through the guidance of the Spirit, early church conferences dealt with the numerous problems they faced, clearing the way for many great and marvelous works to be accomplished. Isolated Christians might individually do much good, but organized actions having the full blessings of the Spirit can change the course of history.
LOL, living in da state of de nile.
My guess is that it was fabricated by polygamists to justify their sins, or by enemies of the church who thought they could get away with "making things up".
Sound more like you are the one making things up John - with such an unsubstatiated denial.
Some lies are so impressive that they are taken as fact. For example, Tina Fey's imitation of Sarah Palin saying, "I can see Russia from my house," is taken by many as being something that Sarah Palin actually said, and many will never, because they are closeminded, believe that she did not say it.
Fact of the matter John, this isn't a Tina Fey joke. Nor was it a joke to the over 30 women Smith had taken to wife.
What other restoration leader from the early 1800's was accused time and time again for polygamy John? Generally where there is smoke, there is fire and as I pointed out in prior post - many sources were not trying to justify their 'sin' of polygamy when they were pointing out smith's polygamy. Again, why was the mormon church the only one singled out for practicing polygamy in smith's day? Why did they have to so vigorously deny the practice?
Remarkably, it has been shown that smith wasn't the only one lying about it. John Taylor declared to be false the accusation “of polygamy and actions the most indelicate, obscene, and disgusting, such that none but a corrupt and depraved heart could have contrived. These things are too outrageous to admit of belief.” At the time of that emphatic pronouncement, Taylor (who would later become church president) had ten plural wives.
More from smith's own hand -
Joseph Smith, 27 July 1842, Nauvoo, Illinois
(Unpublished Revelations 59)
Verily, thus saith the Lord unto my servant Newel K. Whitney,
2 The thing that my servant Joseph Smith has made known unto you and your family and which you have agreed upon is right in mine eyes,
3 And shall be crowned upon your heads with honour and immortality and eternal life to all your house, both old and young because of the lineage of my Priesthood, saith the Lord,
4 It shall be upon you and upon your children after you from generation to generation, by virtue of the holy promise which I now make unto you, saith the Lord.
5 These are the words which you shall pronounce upon my servant Joseph and your daughter Sarah Ann Whitney.
6 They shall take each other by the hand and you shall say,
7 You both mutually agree, calling them by name, to be each other's companion so long as you both shall live, preserving yourselves for each other and from all others, and also throughout all eternity, reserving only those rights which have been given to my servant Joseph by revelation and commandment and by legal authority in times past.
8 If you both agree to covenant and do this, then I give you Sarah Ann Whitney, my daughter, to Joseph Smith, to be his wife, to observe all the rights between you both that belong to that condition.
9 I do it in my own name and in the name of your wife, your mother, and in the name of my holy progenitors, by right of birth which is of priesthood, vested in me by revelation and commandment and promise of the living God, obtained through the holy Melchizedek, Jethro and other of the holy fathers commanding in the name of the Lord all those powers to concentrate in you and through to your posterity forever.
10 All these things I do in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, that through this order he may be glorified and through the power of the anointing David may reign king over Israel, which shall hereafter be revealed.
11 Let immortality and eternal life henceforth be sealed upon your heads forever and ever.
Joseph Smith Collection, Church Historians Office
Well I guess this is "tainted" since Smith was trying to justify his polygamy.
Sidney Rigdon's daughter, Nancy When Smith proposed marriage in April 1842 to Nancy Rigdon, nineteen-year-old daughter of his close friend and counselor, Sidney Rigdon, he reportedly took her into a room, "locked the door, and then stated to her that he had had an affection for her for several years, and wished that she should be his." Nancy refused him, saying she would only marry a single man. The following day Smith explained in a letter to her: "That which is wrong under one circumstance, may be, and often is, right under another." He added, "Whatever God requires is right, no matter what it is, although we may not see the reason thereof." She remained unconvinced. Nancy, her brother John, and her brother-in-law George W. Robinson testified in sworn affidavits that the Joseph Smith had proposed "spiritual marriage" to her. Smith publicly denied the accusations. ("The Letter of the Prophet, Joseph Smith to Miss Nancy Rigdon," Joseph Smith Collection, LDS archives; History of The Church 5:134-36. Sidney Rigdon Biography, Richard S. Van Wagoner, Chapter 21)
Nancy rejected smith's proposal - thus her testimony does not contain your precious 'tainting' John. Oh, and the letter is from smith John, not a forgery. BTW John, Rigdon was not a supporter of polygamy either.
Open your self to the truth - it is freeing John.
There are no simple facts in complex situations like the Reorganization of the church, which developed after all of the confusion during the Nauvoo period of church history and the rivalries after the death of Joseph Smith Jr. It has been a while since I have read the volumes of RLDS church history. The movement to reorganize seemed to be blessed by the Spirit, especially in gatherings of saints, but the individual leaders had greatly differing views about how to reorganize. As the process unfolded through many deliberations, certain leaders did not like the direction being established and left. But the testimony of the majority was that the Spirit was guiding them. In 1860, Joseph Smith III became a spokeman for that guidance. As with anything else, we need to know who, what, when, where, and why disgruntled persons made statements (which are gleefully quoted by Mormon-haters without regard for who, what, when, where, and why).
When it comes to the simplest of facts John - that it is well documented the Smith was a polygamist - even your earliest leaders acknowledged such, there is very little confusion about that - unless as you've stated before, your leaders were trying to justify their sins too.
As with anything else, we need to know who, what, when, where, and why disgruntled persons made statements (which are gleefully quoted by Mormon-haters without regard for who, what, when, where, and why).
Two (2) statements by smith in his own handwriting acknowledging that he practiced and endorsed polygamy - guess that makes him a VERY disgruntled person eh John? It very much addresses the who, what, where, when and why. Cowdrey excommunicated for exposing and opposing smith's polygamy. The editors of the "Expositor", chased out of town and their press destroyed because they exposed smith's polygamy. Seemed Smith was more disgruntled than they were - even to the point of breaking the law.
And we havn't even begun to explore smith's mother-daughter fetish, let alone going after other men's wives.
I am open to the truth. In my judgment, what you have presented is not the truth, but rather a hasty, undiscerning gathering of whatever you can find that can be seen as damaging to those who believe that the Book of Mormon is what it claims to be.
God knows your motives. I do not. But I cannot see how your sloppy attacks can do anybody any good. I think that you are wasting the days of your probation trying to tear down what you don't like, instead of laboring to build up what you love.
Open your self to the truth - it is freeing Godzilla.
If you are so sure about that, then you should be able to prove everything that you are here claiming. Where can those handwritten documents be viewed? Who were the handwriting experts that testified that that they could not have been forgeries? Were did you learn of their existence, if they actually exist?
Oh really John - or are you more interested in the church being 'true' than the truth? AFA the bom's claims, we've hardly scratched the surface on that point John, so far we've been discussing the false presentation of smith's so-called 'virtue' and martial fidelity shall we say. And I've hardly scratched the surface of the research and evidences that show to all with an unbiased mind that smith practiced polygamy (in addition to starting it).
You earlier stated my sources were 'tainted' because they were trying to justify their 'sin'. I've supplied sources that are free of that John - and included smith's own words as well.
God knows your motives. I do not. But I cannot see how your sloppy attacks can do anybody any good. I think that you are wasting the days of your probation trying to tear down what you don't like, instead of laboring to build up what you love.
My so-called 'attacks' have been nothing but the presentation of the truth. Calling them 'sloppy' is just a sad effort to deflect the sharpness of the truth they contain. Some may want to hide behind their walls of fictious reality - denying truth and holding to fantasy - and that fantasy will eventually end up being their destruction. Silence regarding Smith's own handwriting on the subject is very telling as to fact or fantasy.
Whew, just in the nick of time, too.
After the Mormons went to Utah withgout the Smith family Joery Smiths widow Emma Smith told her children that joey had never had any polygamous relationships...
She pretended for the rest of her life that her cheatin no good husband had been true to her...
When 2 of the Smith boys went to Utah years later Brigham Young realized they didnt know and sadistly got pleasure out of revealing the truth of Joeys serial adultery to them...
the truth destroyed one and messed up another...
I cited the sources along with the materials John should you desire to research further. Many are in the LDS archives, most are cited and copied in numerous other books by historians - lds and non-lds, both pro and counter mormonism John. To date - none have been found to be frauds or forgeries - so go seek out your own experts and challenge John, because it is the judgement of the historian community that the documents are valid and are widely accepted as being authentic.
LOL, free at last! free at last!!!
Who were the handwriting experts that testified that that they could not have been forgeries?
__________________________________________
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
John this could be said of the supposed “book of mormon”
Have any experts ever examined the original ???
That is your belief, not a statement of fact. The facts are that Emma Smith was an honest woman, who fully understood before the interview with Joseph Smith III that church leaders did not want any coverup whatsoever, that they wanted to know the truth even if it was ugly. Emma Smith answered the questions, and the net result was that the wife of Joseph Smith Jr stated that to her knowledge he had no other wives, spiritual or otherwise. Since the interview was conducted just before she died, it was published as "Last Testimony of Sister Emma" in Saints' Herald for October 1, 1879.
Soon after that publication, "the people in Utah became greatly agitated" (RLDS Church History 4:290). In the interview, Emma had testified that there was no revelation on polygamy prior to her husband's death. That meant that Brigham Young had fabricated it, and the Utah membership had been lied to.
No you didn't. You were extremely vague about what you claimed. Your whole approach has been to throw out bits and pieces without giving full sources for any of it, apparently hoping that the sheer volume of the bits and pieces will make it look like your position is solid, when it is not.
placemarker
Anybody have a “head in the sand” award we could give to John???
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He is certainly top candiate for “player of the week” award.
Now John, you shouldn't make such claims that are so easily refuted. Here is one example of source citation:
("The Letter of the Prophet, Joseph Smith to Miss Nancy Rigdon," Joseph Smith Collection, LDS archives; History of The Church 5:134-36. Sidney Rigdon Biography, Richard S. Van Wagoner, Chapter 21) - three locations for the same statement of history.
If you go back, you'll see I've provided documentation for my other citations too. I'll assume on this point that you are ignorant of citation methodology John. Please don't make the same mistake twice.
Elsie applied this to the present Mormon church. Since the Mormon church no longer practises blood atonement and polygamy, it is not continuing to do as their fathers did. Therefore, the application is false.
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No it isn’t, they (and CoC) still follow their idols, their false Christs.
I cited the sources along with the materials John should you desire to research further. Many are in the LDS archives,
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I viewed a couple of them (along with many other primary sources) when I was doing my research in SLC. They exist and analysts have authenticated them.
I had forgotten you’ve been allowed into the bowels of archeives at slc.
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