Posted on 08/27/2011 2:14:11 PM PDT by GiovannaNicoletta
To me Paul was most certainly one of the elect. We are told of what he was doing when he was doing his own will with his own passion. Yet he was struck down on his way to do his own thing and he was the most educated in the Hebrew scripture of all the New Testament writers and penned most of the New.
I too believe those chosen as Paul describes in Ephesians 1 before the foundation of this world (age) will be in place when they are called upon to testify as was demonstrated in Chapter 2 of Acts. And what took place in Acts 2 was already foretold in Joel. That is instructive to me that at minimum the elect would need to have at least a cursory understanding of the so called old or the Hebrew script. Paul does say that ICorinthians 10:11 we have been given the script as to what would be to end this flesh age.
I also believe that Christ is the standard that any of the 'elect' will follow as is stated in John 3:16.
What I do know is that the Calvinist idea that they are gifts given by God to the Elect is nowhere taught in scripture. Both belief and faith are repeatedly - in literally hundreds of verses - described as something men do, not receive.
The idea that faith is a gift comes from confusion between pronouns and the nouns they are linked with in several verses in the second chapter of Ephesians. The problem really arises because English words, unlike Greek, have no gender and because certain words that are singular in Greek have a translation in English that sound plural. Also, it doesn't help that some translations, like the NIV, add punctuation that reinforces the idea that faith is a gift even though it's unsupported by the text. I'll give the Greek and then the English. I'll make the nouns ("the riches" and "the gift," singular neuter) and the respective pronoun ("this," singular neuter) in question bold so it's obvious which goes with what. "Faith" (singular feminine, πιστεως) I'll italicize. (And the really sad thing is that most of the English translations miss out on reproducing some beautiful parallelism in the Greek.
4 ο δε θεος πλουσιος ων εν ελεει δια την πολλην αγαπην αυτου ην ηγαπησεν ημας 5 και οντας ημας νεκρους τοις παραπτωμασιν συνεζωοποιησεν τω χριστω χαριτι εστε σεσωσμενοι 6 και συνηγειρεν και συνεκαθισεν εν τοις επουρανιοις εν χριστω ιησου 7 ινα ενδειξηται εν τοις αιωσιν τοις επερχομενοις το υπερβαλλον πλουτος της χαριτος αυτου εν χρηστοτητι εφ ημας εν χριστω ιησου 8 τη γαρ χαριτι εστε σεσωσμενοι δια πιστεως και τουτο ουκ εξ υμων θεου το δωρον 9 ουκ εξ εργων ινα μη τις καυχησηται 10 αυτου γαρ εσμεν ποιημα κτισθεντες εν χριστω ιησου επι εργοις αγαθοις οις προητοιμασεν ο θεος ινα εν αυτοις περιπατησωμεν
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) 6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: 7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
The thing to note here is that the "that" that so many think refers to faith cannot because it is a neuter pronoun that refers back to the neuter noun "riches" and to that noun's apposition "gift," also singular neuter. It doesn't refer to "faith" because, if it did, it would have been feminine in gender.
A better way of translating this passage would be simply to repeat the noun to which the pronoun refers and to make sure the parenthetical comments appear as such both times.
But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, even when we were dead in sins, has quickened us together with Christ (by grace you are saved) and has raised us up together and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus so that in the ages to come he might show the exceeding wealth of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus (for by grace are ye saved through faith). And that exceeding wealth, the gift of God, is not of yourselves. It is not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, in which God has before ordained that we should walk.
6,402 posted on Sunday, January 24, 2010 8:38:45 PM by aruanan [ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6379 | View Replies | Report Abuse]
I like how the author spends the first quarter of the article just making one unsubstantiated claim after another. Criticizing saints of God with lies and insults - a regular feature and identifying mark of Dysfunctionalists.This author clearly does not understand the Gospel and has zero knowledge on the doctrines of Redemption if he truly believes, that despite Romans 10:12; Gal 3:28; Col 3:11 "for there is no distinction between Jew and Greek" that only the "elect" can be ethnic "DNA Certified" Jews (and even more trouble explaining proselytes and folks like the gentile Rahab), then there is no hope for his own Salvation for he has clearly rejected all teachings of Jesus Christ and the Sovereignty of God.
Your observation here is useful.
Of course, you can't be a real Dispensationalist until you just blurt out pure blasphemy:
If they can't read Ephesians 2 with clear eyes and unstopped ears ("Fellow citizens. Dividing wall broke down. La la la! I can't hear you!"), why do we expect that they will read Ephesians 1 that way? Or Galatians. Or Romans. Or Hebrews.
This lot certainly seems to think highly of human capability. It might be worthwhile, sometime, querying them on original sin. I heard one dispensational teacher (a minor guy involved in some way with LaHaye's pretrib group, of my personal acquaintance) flat out deny it. I don't think he knew that's what he was doing, but he did.
They need the gospel preached to them.
“That, in my book, would make us superior to God.”
Not if GOD gives us the choice - which scriptures indicate he does.
***Thank you. I haven’t read much on Martin Luther so I didn’t know where he stood on this.***
might try this. THE BONDAGE OF THE WILL by MARTIN LUTHER.
Sect. 164.—I OMIT to bring forward that truly Achillean Scripture of mine, which the Diatribe proudly passes by untouched—I mean, that which Paul teaches, Rom. vii. and Gal. v., that there is in the saints, and in the godly, so powerful a warfare between the spirit and the flesh, that they cannot do what they would. From this warfare I argue thus:—If the nature of man be so evil, even in those who are born again of the Spirit, that it does not only not endeavour after good, but is even averse to, and militates against good, how should it endeavour after good in those who are not born again of the Spirit, and who are still in the “old man,” and serve under Satan? Nor does Paul there speak of the ‘grosser affections’ only, (by means of which, as a common scape-gap, the Diatribe is accustomed to get out of the way of all the Scriptures,) but he enumerates among the works of the flesh heresy, idolatry, contentions, divisions, &c.; which he describes as reigning in those most exalted faculties; that is, in the reason and the will. If therefore, flesh with these affections war against the Spirit in the saints, much more will it war against God in the ungodly, and in “Free-will.” Hence, Rom. viii. 7, he calls it “enmity against God.”—I should like, I say, to see this argument of mine overturned, and “Free-will” defended against it.
As to myself, I openly confess, that I should not wish “Free-will” to be granted me, even if it could be so, nor anything else to be left in my own hands, whereby I might endeavour something towards my own salvation. And that, not merely because in so many opposing dangers, and so many assaulting devils, I could not stand and hold it fast, (in which state no man could be saved, seeing that one devil is stronger than all men;) but because, even though there were no dangers, no conflicts, no devils, I should be compelled to labour under a continual uncertainty, and to beat the air only. Nor would my conscience, even if I should live and work to all eternity, ever come to a settled certainty, how much it ought to do in order to satisfy God. For whatever work should be done, there would still remain a scrupling, whether or not it pleased God, or whether He required any thing more; as is proved in the experience of all justiciaries, and as I myself learned to my bitter cost, through so many years of my own experience.
But now, since God has put my salvation out of the way of my will, and has taken it under His own, and has promised to save me, not according to my working or manner of life, but according to His own grace and mercy, I rest fully assured and persuaded that He is faithful, and will not lie, and moreover great and powerful, so that no devils, no adversities can destroy Him, or pluck me out of His hand. “No one (saith He) shall pluck them out of My hand, because My Father which gave them Me is greater than all.” (John x. 27-28). Hence it is certain, that in this way, if all are not saved, yet some, yea, many shall be saved; whereas by the power of “Free-will,” no one whatever could be saved, but all must perish together. And moreover, we are certain and persuaded, that in this way, we please God, not from the merit of our own works, but from the favour of His mercy promised unto us; and that, if we work less, or work badly, He does not impute it unto us, but, as a Father, pardons us and makes us better.—This is the glorying which all the saints have in their God!
How can we choose other than what God foreknew? Will any of us surprise God by showing up in Heaven? Will any of God’s CHOSEN people not make it to Heaven?
Thank you very much.
And what did the lily, the mountains or anything else do to “earn” it?
You equate knowing the future with compelling the future.
During the years I was overseas in the military, I normally heard the football scores before the game was shown on TV. So I knew the outcome, although I did not control the outcome.
To use another analogy...If I got on my mare Mia and sank some spurs into her side, I know she would explode. OK, being human, I only predict that with 99.9% certainty - but God is 100%. I don’t compel Mia to explode, but I ‘know’ what will happen.
Knowing something in advance doesn’t force anyone to do it.
In a previous post I asked a couple of questions. Would you mind reading and responding to them?
Thanks for sharing,
I give all credit to God and take none for myself.
***To what end? If ‘they’ are not apart of the special ones...what good is preaching?***
Mostly because we do not know who it is God has chosen, and he tells us to be witnesses of his to all generations. That’s good enough for me.
They agreed to be what He made them to be...:) Accepting Jesus’ sacrifice for my sin was the taking of a gift offered to me. The same gift is offered to each one of us. All the same, all desired by the giver. It is not arrogance, it is amazement at His great love...so much so that we long to have others accept also, just as He does.
***During the years I was overseas in the military, I normally heard the football scores before the game was shown on TV. So I knew the outcome, although I did not control the outcome.***
Yes, you knew the outcome before you saw it on TV, but God knew the outcome before it was PLAYED.
***During the years I was overseas in the military, I normally heard the football scores before the game was shown on TV. So I knew the outcome, although I did not control the outcome.***
Yes, you knew the outcome before you saw it on TV, but God knew the outcome before it was PLAYED.***
Which reminds me of the story of a drunk sitting at the bar watching the 11:00 news. They were showing a guy standing on the edge of a building. The drunk yells out, “$5 says he doesn’t jump!” Another guy took the bet. The man on the building jumped. When the 2nd guy came to collect, he said, “ Hey, I can’t take your money, I saw this on the 6:00 news.” The drunk said, “So did I, but I didn’t think he would do it again!”
A 'perverted fetish' is attempting to replace Israel. Attempting to take the promises given to Israel as someone else's and believing that The Church the Body of Christ is Israel. While denying the power of God's love and grace given to us freely during this dispensation of the grace of God. Where we are given equal standing before Him purely on the basis of Christ's finished work.
Obedience is the key that opens all doors...G. McDonald. Another good one to obey is “Be Ye Kind”. I am just saying there seems a woeful lack of kindness in these discussions.
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