Posted on 12/15/2011 10:14:12 AM PST by Cronos
Sadly, many in our brotherhood would answer “yes” to this question. Denominations have for years taught that it does not matter what church you attend, as long as a person is sincere and honest. Many in the Lord’s church have swallowed this idea. They cry long and hard that there are sincere, devout Christians in any given denomination. It is no wonder, then, that many congregations of the Lord’s church have joined hands with denominational churches to promote or to participate in any number of things. Of course, they consider their actions to have Biblical backing. They proclaim the words of Jesus in defense of their endeavors: "other sheep I have, which are not of this fold” (Jn.10:16). To them, “this fold” represents the Church of Christ (denominational concept of the Lord’s church), and the other sheep outside of “this fold” represent God’s children scattered among the denominations. Does this interpretation have credence? Is it the case that there are devout Christians in denominations? The answer is no to both questions.
The passage under consideration does not support the idea that there are devout Christians in denominations. To the dismay of those who would espouse this soul-damning doctrine, this passage destroys their convoluted thinking. There is no hint of such a doctrine taught in this passage, nor is it even possible that this passage could teach such. The New Testament knows nothing of denominationalism. In the first century, there was one church and only one church (Eph.4:4). Although the seeds of denominationalism were being planted during the first century, these seeds did not bloom until after the close of New Testament times. To claim that John 10:16 deals in any respect with denominationalism is to force a 21st century interpretation on a 1st century passage.
The latter half of the verse under consideration inflicts even more damage upon the idea that there are devout Christians in denominations. Christ proclaimed that the “other sheep” would be brought into “one fold” under the care of “one shepherd.” This one fold is the one church! And this one church is under the care of the Great Shepherd Jesus Christ! Those in denominations follow the voice of Luther, or Calvin, or Wesley, or Pope John Paul II, but they are not following the voice of the Great Shepherd! The other sheep to whom Jesus was referring were the Gentiles. Though there were some Gentiles who sought God, and anticipated the coming of the Messiah, the Jews and Gentiles remained separated. Through Christ’s death, he would bring both Jew and Gentile together in one body, one fold (Eph.2:14)! The Lord’s church today is a fulfillment of John 10:16—both Jew and Gentile in one body under the care of the Great Shepherd.
Are there devout Christians in denominations? No. Are there children of God in denominations? Yes, but only because they chose to leave the safety of the one fold, the Lord’s church, to follow the doctrines and commandments of men. Those who have done so must repent and return to the church of our Lord before it is eternally too late! PM
***Everett Feguson, Jack Lewis, and James W. Thompson for starters.***
Strange. I’ve heard of VINE’S, Thayer, Zodhiates, Perschbacher, STRONG’S, Vincent’s word studies but not these you mentioned.
***...the reason for this is that there is no example or instruction do so in the New Testament.***
Yet there is plenty in the OT. Psalm 150 immediately comes to mind.
“Strange. I’ve heard of VINE’S, Thayer, Zodhiates, Perschbacher, STRONG’S, Vincent’s word studies but not these you mentioned.”
Then you may want to do some more research.
No disagreement there are many things people were instructed to do in the Old Testament that are not in the New Testament.
His disciples asked him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents...?"
“Neither this man nor his parents sinned,” said Jesus, “but this happened so that the works of God might be displayed in him.”
-- John 9:2a-3
“And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.”
“For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.”
LLS
You will find animal sacrifices in the Old Testament also. Different time, different covenant. Churches of Christ attempt to follow the New Testament as a guide for their beliefs and practices.
“But what about all those discussions by Paul of how Christians should be of one mind and expel from their midst those advocating false doctrines?”
“If Christians are to implement these scriptural instructions, they can’t be believing a whole bunch of different things.”
As the history of Christianity has shown, it can SOMETIMES be a fine line between what one claims as “false” doctrine and honest but theologically different viewpoints.
If you have been studying the church of Christ for 20 years you must be working with an extraordinarily small sample size. There is no central organization so there is a tremendous amount of variation.
***You will find animal sacrifices in the Old Testament also. Different time, different covenant.***
The validity of animal sacrifices ceased at the cross. They were still being performed for a time afterward. St Paul was told to offer one in the Temple by James.
I presume you realize the two quotes appear to contradict each other.
The first indicates that the true Church will be that founded upon Peter. Presumably any other group of Christians is not included and is therefore a false church. (Discuss amongst yourselves which church is founded upon Peter.)
The second indicates that Christ is there where ANY group gathers in his name. This would therefore include ALL the groups discussed on this thread, including Mormons, JWs, Protestants, Disciples of Christ, Catholics, Orthodox, etc.
“They do not believe their’s is the only true denomination, they believe that Christ set up one true Church, and their’s is it.”
I am sorry but most “Protestants” - Methodists, Episcopalians, Presbyterians, UCC and the like DO NOT believe that “their” church is the “one true Church”.
They accept that most of their doctrinal differences are less than what they hold in common belief, even while they prefer to practice their Christian beliefs in the framework of their own denominations; and they do not - most of them - hold that someone is NOT in the “body of Christ” just because they are part of another denomination.
“I have enough problems worrying about myself to police others........”
“I’m well-content to let the Lord sort it all out.”
Well said - and HE will.
Some groups commonly classified as Protestant do indeed believe this.
I am not trying to say that every Protestant group, or even most, believe this. Only those Protestant churches which claim the others have fallen away.
One common definition, perhaps the most commonly used, for Protestant is all "Christian" groups other than Catholic, Orthodox and those groups such as Mormons and JWs which explicitly exclude themselves from the Protestant grouping.
Demons have locality. They all got the same messenger.
I’m not arguing with that. Just pointing out the rationale for a Christian finding his/her belief and practice in the New Testament rather than the Old. One does not find teaching or example in the NT for using musical instruments. That is why there is no example in history for any Christians using instruments until about 600 yrs after the beginning of the church. Most churches of Christ sing “acapella” which loosly translates “in the style of the church or chapel.”
Nope. Just the people I know who are members. If that’s not doctrine, somebody is misleading a lot of people in that denomination. The people I know who are WSL refuse to attend any other church and refuse communion to non-WSL visitors. Their actions drown out any doctrinal words.
“The “boston movement” or IOCC is far removed from Church of Christ Congregational movement.”
One came out of the other and they have significant doctrinal similarities.
Unfortunately, I have. From the Baptist Student Union people at UT Austin to the baptists in Brady, Texas to those here in San Antonio, I have heard it over and over again. The Wisconsin Synod Lutherans I know who visit their family in San Antonio refuse to attend church with their “apostate” family members because it’s not “real” Christianity.
I wish it were different, but this is personal experience. You should hear what they say when they learn I’m a Christian who attends a Methodist church!
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