Posted on 01/11/2012 7:34:56 PM PST by RnMomof7
Mary: Mother of God?
This article is prompted by an ad in the Parade Magazine titled: "Mary Mother of God: What All Mankind Should Know." The offer was made for a free pamphlet entitled "Mary Mother of Jesus" with this explanation: "A clear, insightful pamphlet explains the importance of Mary and her role as Mother of God."
This is quite a claim, to say the least! Nowhere in the Bible is Mary said to be the mother of God. I touched on this subject in a series on "Mary Co-Redeemer with Christ" printed recently.
Question: If Mary is the Mother of God, Who, may I ask, is the Father of God? Does God have a Father, and if He does, Who is His Mother?
The phrase "Mother of God" originated in the Council of Ephesus, in the year 431 AD. It occurs in the Creed of Chalcedon, which was adopted by the council in 451 AD. This was the declaration given at that time: "Born of the Virgin Mary, the Mother of God according to the Manhood." The purpose of this statement originally was meant to emphasize the deity of Christ over against the teaching of the Nestorians whose teaching involved a dual-natured Jesus. Their teaching was that the person born of Mary was only a man who was then indwelt by God. The title "Mother of God" was used originally to counter this false doctrine. The doctrine now emphasizes the person of Mary rather than the deity of Jesus as God incarnate. Mary certainly did not give birth to God. In fact, Mary did not give birth to the divinity of Christ. Mary only gave birth to the humanity of Jesus. The only thing Jesus got from Mary was a body. Every Human Being has received a sinful nature from their parents with one exception: Jesus was not human. He was divine God in a flesh body. This is what Mary gave birth to. Read Hebrews 10:5 and Phil 2:5-11.
Please refer to Hebrews 10:5 where we see. "...Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me."
The body of Jesus was prepared by God. In Matthew 1:18, "she was found with child of the Holy Ghost."
The divine nature of Jesus existed from before eternity, and this cannot be said of Mary Jesus never called her "mother". He called her "woman".
This doctrine deifies Mary and humanizes Jesus. Mary is presented as stronger that Christ, more mature and more powerful that Christ. Listen to this statement by Rome: "He came to us through Mary, and we must go to Him through her." The Bible plainly states that God is the Creator of all things. It is a blasphemous attack on the eternity of God to ever teach that He has a mother. Mary had other children who were normal, physical, sinful human beings. In the case of Jesus Christ, "His human nature had no father and His divine nature had no mother."
It is probably no coincidence that this false doctrine surrounding Mary was born in Ephesus. Please read Acts 19:11-41 and see that Ephesus had a problem with goddess worship. Her name was Diana, Gk. Artemis. You will not have to study very deep to find the similarities between the goddess Diana and the Roman Catholic goddess, Mary. It should be noted that the Mary of the 1st century and the Mary of the 20th century are not the same. Mary of the 1st century was the virgin who gave birth to the Messiah. Mary of the 20th century is a goddess created by the Roman Catholic Church. A simple comparison of what the Bible teaches about Mary and what the Roman Catholic Church teaches about her will reveal two different Marys. Mary is not the "Mother of God." If she were she would be GOD! There is only one true, eternal God. He was not born of a woman. Any teaching on any subject should be backed up by the word of God. If it cannot be supported by Scriptures, it is false doctrine.
They belong to The Invisible Church of The Most High Self. Doctrine and Scripture don't really matter to the Most High Self crowd in spite of their claiming to base their beliefs on Scripture only. In essence, they believe they've said the magic words, so now Jesus Christ is indebted to and obligated to them, and that they are in no way indebted to or obligated to Christ. As we've seen clearly in this thread, even denying the deity of Christ as it is spelled out in the New Testament doesn't matter to such folks. In their view, they are the Potter and Christ is their clay.
Such folks need to stroke their own ego by claiming insight even though their mentors are the Three Blind Mice of "Self Alone", "Scripture Alone", and "Faith Alone", completely excluding Grace by claiming Christ is their willing slave rather than their merciful King. That's exactly what leads to so many such folks claiming they're led by the Holy Spirit to ordain queers, marry queers one to another, deny that abortion is evil, and so on. And yet, the Most High Self crowd aren't concerned that others who believe as they do indulge in such antiChrist things, they're concerned that Christmas and Easter are pagan holidays and attending church on a regular basis is nothing but a useless tradition. Talking with such folks is really a waste of time. If a huge, fat, American Yorkshire hog, were to attempt to speak with you, it wouldn't make any difference because you don't speak Swine. The same is true in this instance, you don't speak irrational blather so you're never going convince those in The Invisible Church of The Most High Self to surrender to Christ, take up their cross, and follow Him.
(just in case any Most High Self folks read this, "Christ" and "Him" are one and the same in that last sentence, not Christ and a religious song)
Regards and thank you both for many good comments and rebuttals to the Most High Self crowd.
677 The Church will enter the glory of the kingdom only through this final Passover, when she will follow her Lord in his death and Resurrection.579 The kingdom will be fulfilled, then, not by a historic triumph of the Church through a progressive ascendancy, but only by God’s victory over the final unleashing of evil, which will cause his Bride to come down from heaven.580 God’s triumph over the revolt of evil will take the form of the Last Judgment after the final cosmic upheaval of this passing world.581 http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p1s2c2a7.htm#673
Notice that it says that the “church” which they surely mean the RCC “will follow her Lord in his death and Resurrection”. Does that mean that the entirety of the membership will be killed or die before the final battle? It does say that the “final unleashing of evil” will “cause His bride to come down from heaven”. That means that either the entire Christian community will die or be killed and raised again or that it’s only a part of the bride that will come with Christ.
Now they have a problem with their statements because in 989 they claim that Christ “will raise them up on the last day”. Is that two resurrections of the righteous? Will some be raised to “come down from heaven” with Him then others who were “left behind” be raised on the last day to join those who “came down from heaven” with Him?
989 We firmly believe, and hence we hope that, just as Christ is truly risen from the dead and lives for ever, so after death the righteous will live for ever with the risen Christ and he will raise them up on the last day. Then in 1001 they say that the resurrection of the dead is associated with Chris’s Parousia. So they have gone from the “church” the bride of Christ coming with him on that last day to the “dead in Christ” being risen on that last day.
1001 When? Definitively “at the last day,” “at the end of the world.”557 Indeed, the resurrection of the dead is closely associated with Christ’s Parousia:
For the Lord himself will descend from heaven, with a cry of command, with the archangel’s call, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.558
We know that the CC condemns the belief of the Rapture but they claim in 677 that the bride will come down with Christ but that the “dead in Christ” will not be raised until He returns to earth. It appears to me that they have some serious contradictions in their stated beliefs. How many resurrections do they believe in?
>> i rest in my Sabbath, Jesus Christ. ( like all Christians have for 2,000 years )<<
And yet here you are! I sense a bit of hypocrisy.
Still posting on Sunday? What happened to you’re “resting”?
Bobsvainbabblings,
Unlike the near-deification of Mary from tradition, and which is a product of sola ecclesia, the deity of Christ is abundantly testified to in Scripture, and to that authority it owes its near universal acceptance by those who hold Scripture to be supreme, by the Spirit of God. http://peacebyjesus.witnesstoday.org/DEITYofCHRIST.html
His Eminence Aloisius Joseph Muench
Diocese Roman Catholic Diocese of Fargo, North Dakota
See Bishop of Fargo
Enthroned 1935
Reign ended 1959
Ordination June 8, 1916
Consecration October 15, 1935
Created Cardinal December 14, 1959
Rank Cardinal-priest
Born February 18, 1889
Died February 15, 1962 Rome, Italy
Buried Fargo, North Dakota
Denomination Roman Catholic
Aloisius Joseph Muench was an American prelate of the Roman Catholic Church. He served as Bishop of Fargo from 1935 to 1959, and as Apostolic Nuncio to Germany from 1951 to 1959. He was elevated to the cardinalate in 1959.
Muench was the most powerful American Catholic and Vatican representative in Allied-occupied Germany and subsequently in West Germany from 1946 to 1959 as the liaison between the U.S. Office of Military Government and the German Catholic Church in the American occupation zone (1946–1949), Pope Pius XII's apostolic visitor to Germany (1946–1947), the Vatican relief officer in Kronberg im Taunus, Germany (1947–1949), regent in Kronberg (1949–1951), as well as nuncio to Germany.[1]
According to Barry's biography, Muench focused on three goals: the Vatican mission for Catholic displaced persons and prisoners of war (funded by American donations brokered by Muench); maintaining the validity of the Reichskonkordat (a 1933 treaty between the Vatican and Germany); and the autonomy of German Catholic schools.[9]
Historian Michael Phayer views Muench's dual appointment as significant: "Muech's position was extraordinary. At one and the same time, he was President Truman's Catholic liaison to OMGUS and Pius XII's personal envoy to zonal Germany. Serving two masters, he listened to Rome, not Washington from the moment of his arrival in Germany".[10]
Muench's pastoral letter One World In Charity was published in installments (in the U.S. first in January 1946, and in occupied Germany one year later).[11] The 10,200 word letter was read from the diocese of Fargo's pulpits weekly on the five Sundays between Shrove Tuesday and Passion Sunday, and then translated into German and printed first in German language newspapers in the United States.[12]
One World appeared in both religious and secular publications alongside statements denying Germans' complicity in the Holocaust, especially the concept of collective guilt.[11] Muench received several letters from German Catholics commenting on One World; they regarded him as one who understood German "suffering"
One World referred to the Allied authorities as "other Hitlers in disguise, who would make of [the German] nation a crawling [Bergen-]Belsen.[14] One World argued that responsibility for the Holocaust lay only with a very few war criminals who had "revived the Mosaic idea of an eye for an eye".[14]
According to Brown-Fleming, Muench's sympathies in his writing matched his actions as one of the most active participants in the Vatican's "postwar clemency campaign on behalf of convicted war criminals".[14]
In at least four instances, Muench became involved in restitution disputes between Catholic Germans and Jews regarding property seized during the war; in each instance, Muench sided with the German Catholics, contacting highly placed German and American officials on their behalf.[16] Muench wrote in a September 1946 letter that "some of these gents exploit the fact that they were in concentration camps for their own benefit, although some were there because of an unsavory past".[17]
Muench was also an opponent of interreligious dialog efforts that included Jews, opposing the organization of chapters of the National Conference of Christians and Jews (NCCJ) and the International Conference of Christians and Jews (ICCJ), among others, in occupied Germany.[19] In a 1948 letter to Carl Zietlow, a Minnesotan Protestant pastor of the NCCJ, Muench described the organization as unneeded because: "regarding anti-Semitism" he had "found very little of it".[19]
According to Phayer, for Muench as well as Pius XII, the "priority was not the survivors of the Holocaust, but the situation of the German Catholic refugees in Eastern Europe who had been driven from their homes at the end of the war. Incredibly, Bishop Muench actually felt that their lot was comparable to that of the Jews during the Holocaust".[20]
In February 1950, Pius XII instructed Muench to write a letter in support of clemency for some convicted German war criminals to General Thomas Hardy, the head of the U.S. Army European Command, who had the final word on all clemency decisions; with his new appointment as papal regent, Muench was to speak as a direct representative of the pope.[22]
As the Vatican urged Muench to press harder against the U.S. authorities, Muench wrote to Undersecretary Montini (future Pope Paul VI) warning him that Rome was on "dangerously thin ice".[25]
Muench often preferred to work behind the scenes; for example, a letter from one of Muench's secretaries provided Father Franz Lovenstein the contact information he had requested "with the understanding, of course, that you are not to use his name in connection with any letters or briefs that will be sent to those gentlemen".[29] For example, in the case of Hans Eisle (former SS, convicted of medical experimentation on prisoners) there is some evidence that Muench's intervention with General Clay in the summer of 1948 resulted in the commutation of Eisle's execution (scheduled for June 1948) and Eisle's eventual release in 1952.[20][30]
Nunciature (1951-1959)Muench's role as apostolic visitor was upgraded to nuncio when the Allied High Commission permitted the Federal Republic to form an independent foreign affairs ministry in March 1951.[31] On March 9, 1951, Pope Pius XII appointed Bishop Muench papal nuncio to Germany with the title of archbishop.[32] Muench viewed it as no small honor to hold the nunciature formerly occupied by Pius XII himself.[20][33]
There is much evidence of genuine camaraderie between Pius XII and Muench. He met Eugenio Pacelli (the future pope) for the first time while Pacelli was nuncio to Bavaria, when Muench visited Munich as a student representative of the Catholic Central Verein of America (CCVA).[2]
Muench mourned the death of Pius XII in October 1958, telling friends that the pope "treated him with the affection and love of a father to his son".
The correspondence between Muench and Pius XII focused almost exclusively on the various opinions shared by the two men, often with great levity. / According to Brown-Fleming, in one private audience between the two in May 1957 Pius XII told Muench a joke about Hitler dying, going to Heaven, and meeting the Old Testament Prophet Moses, who forgives Hitler; Hitler then asks Moses if he set fire to the burning bush himself, a tongue-in-cheek reference to the Reichstag fire, which apparently elicited a "big laugh" from Pius XII.
Muench's papers from course of his work in Germany are well preserved. This makes them one of a very few collections of papers from German, American, or Vatican Catholic dignitaries of that time period that are "fully accessible to historians".[40]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aloisius_Joseph_Muench?oldid=0
Isolating verses to force an interpretation? Surely the CC doesn’t do that do they? /s Who then is she? The source to which John has turned for his imagery throughout this book is the Old Testament. There, the Woman, the bride of God who brings forth the Messiah, is Israel, the true Israel, the chosen people of God. It is quite certain that this is what is in John's mind when he begins his description with a quotation from Gen. 37:9-10, where the sun and moon and twelve stars represent the twelve-fold Israel.
Certainly no confusion of conflict in the interpretation of that passage in the CC is there. /s
Perhaps, or that all must die as per Heb. 9:27, but which would leave out Mary, and Enoch an Elijah, unless they are the 2 witnesses in Rev. And in which you have resurrection that precedes the resurrection of the just, unless this signifies it. Issues like this, and when the marriage supper of the Lamb occurs are why we are not and need not be dogmatic in precise eschatology, thank God.
We know that the CC condemns the belief of the Rapture but they claim in 677 that the bride will come down with Christ but that the “dead in Christ” will not be raised until He returns to earth. It appears to me that they have some serious contradictions in their stated beliefs. How many resurrections do they believe in?
I believe it is only one, as the resurrection would considered to be what is called the "rapture," the catching away of the saints when the Lord returns (1Ths. 4:17; 2Ths. 2:1)
Apparently there is no millennial reign in this expressed eschatology, which separates the two different resurrections as i understand it in the predominate eschatological model, although this varies at to time.
As i see presently see it, the 1st resurrection would be the resurrection of life, (Jn. 5:29; first resurrection: Rv. 20:5) that of all believers who are raptured toward the terminus of the tribulation before Armageddon, and who thus come with the Lord in judgment at Armageddon, (Jude. 1:14,15) and reign with Christ for a 1,00 years before the final test and war, when the devil is loosed and leads most in rebellion against the Lord and His anointed, leading to the resurrection of damnation, (Jn. 5:29; Rv. 20:7-12) And then the elect judge angels as well as men. (1Cor. 6:2)
"And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years." (Revelation 20:1-6)
"And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works." (Revelation 20:7-12)
Keep on believing that, it does not change history or the facts.
That does not jive with all of the prior posts that I have read. Works do not matter, if I recall properly, to your beliefs, and are therefore irrelevant.
He most certainly did and it wasn’t the RCC.
Now, why on earth would I want to bother discussing the convoluted pontifications of a Jack Daniels infused former Catholic arguing from the La-Z-Boy seat of his self-annointed popehood? Maybe you can find a stuffed armadillo that has the time to take it all in.
If the Muslim in charge and the Visigoths inhabiting Foggy Bottom and imagining the antiCatholic rhetoric of the mid 1800s have their way, all Catholics would wind up in some sort of camp.
Handing down doctrines from the Throne of Sunday Sports Theology in front of the Sacred Flatscreen during commercials and in between beers seems to be a fine art practiced by the most fervent antiCatholics.
Umm, that's probably against forum rules. He'd have to give you his home address in order to comply. When you create and rule a church of one, you probably don't have a separate site; you're probably running things from your LaZBoy.
Hos 13:2 And now they sin more and more, and have made them molten images of their silver, and idols according to their own understanding, all of it the work of the craftsmen: they say of them, Let the men that sacrifice kiss the calves.
On only watch as Catholics kiss their trinkets to understand.
But the tribulation did NOT happen as was prophesized. A mystery, hid in GOd, from the foundation of the world, was revealed to the Apostle Paul that put the tribulation on hold. ANd everything changed at that time. When it has run its course in God's Plan, the tribulation will begin and the remaining prophetic program will be fulfilled.
With these two paragraphs in juxtaposition, do you see what we see?
This couldn’t be more wrong and the contradictions in it are astounding.
First....
From the cross, Jesus made seven statements. Imagine, He is hanging on the cross with nails through His hands and feet. He must hold Himself up in order to have the breath to speak and so say these seven things.
One of the things He says, Woman behold thy son! Behold thy mother!
Notice the use of exclamation points. This was an important and powerful statement. A declaration. It was not simply a last minute thought on the part of Jesus before He died to see that His mother had care after He died.
That is so laughable, I am embarrassed that it was written. It ranks right up there with the one saying Jesus, God, gave Peter the name of rock because he was hard headed.
Second.
Do you not see the profound contradiction in the fact that on the one hand, protestants say that Jesus had siblings born of Mary, and then in their haste to deny the true meaning of this verse, they say that Jesus had to see to her care because it was the duty of the offspring to take care of the parents.
What happened to all the offspring protestants say Mary had? Why would Jesus, at the last minute, hanging from the cross, who cries out to God and says six other things that complete the fulfillment of His mission, suddenly think that none of His brothers and sisters would care for their mother?
I have given you the Scriptural support for why Christians from the beginning have regarded Mary as their spiritual mother.
You have given a totally absurd on its face, outright belly laugh inducing, mindless repeat of protestant pablum spewed out of a need to reject anything Catholic rather than accept Scripture that fully supports the Catholic belief.
Funny, too, how when a protestant wants to deny the Catholic understanding of a passage, all of a sudden the words of Jesus are meant only for the person in the passage to whom He is speaking and not all believers.
Then of course, when rejecting others, such as when He gives Peter the keys of the kingdom, NOW He is speaking to All believers.
Meh. Haven’t seen anything new in this post and certainly nothing to be given any thought than I have.
I don’t know...what do you see? Acts 8,9,and 10 should give you the answer you are looking for.
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