Catholics, Get Ready to Suffer

Congratulations, you have just refuted the entire rational for the Protestant Reformation. Perhaps you are not as far away form home as you think.

On the contrary, that supports the Protestant Reformation and I am home as I am in Christ. I am saved by grace through faith in Christ. Alone.

Members of the Catholic church do not bow to images (other than that of Jesus Christ) nor is it taught to do so.

ON the contrary, I was raised Roman Catholic and there were statues of Mary in the churches and people did indeed bow down before them and pray to Mary and light candles to her.

I saw the people bowing down with my own eyes.

Intellectual assent is not enough. You have to repent and confess and receive.

The Pharisees had the intellectual part all nailed down. They KNEW, but their hearts were unrepentant.

Jesus whole focus is on the heart, such as in the Beatitudes.

Romans 10:8-13 8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); 9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. 11 For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. 13 For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

John 1:11-13 11 He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him. 12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

I understand. It hurts stretching it sometimes, but is worth it in the end.

I agree. Notice 1 John 4. About true love too. We live the life. True repentence. Of course. Amen!!

May I ask what you add to intellectual assent to make it saving grace?

I meant: May I ask what you add to intellectual assent to make it saving faith?

We all need people to talk to, real flesh and blood people at that.

Yes, we take our problems and concerns to God in prayer, but there’s something so helpful about talking to another flesh and blood human being and getting the direct and immediate feedback from them that helps us work through our issues.

They can sympathize if they’ve been there. They can offer an outside perspective with clarity of thought when we’re so mired down we can’t see or think clearly. They can tell us how they worked through similar situations themselves and offer encouragement that way.

And yes, there is a place for openness and honesty in confessing to each other our faults, and sins, and weaknesses. And that’s not for forgiveness as no one man can grant forgiveness for sin that is only God’s to give for salvation. But if we have offended the person to whom we’re talking, then yes, by all means ask them to forgive you in addition to seeking it from God. But that is more for healing of relationships than a salvation issue.

There is something very healing about being able to be open like that with someone you trust. It can help you learn to put stuff behind you and move on and it can be of benefit with accountability if you so desire.

It is not good for a man to be alone. Adam had perfect fellowship with God and yet it was still not good for him to be alone. And Adam was perfect at that point. As fallen human beings, I think that need for others is exacerbated.

I'm pinging some other just for clarification. Maybe one of them can answer this question better than I, but I'm going to try anyway.

It's not a matter of adding anything to intellectual assent to change it into saving faith. If someone just adds works to intellectual assent, such as baptism, feeding the poor, etc., all they have is intellectual assent with works added.

Saving faith comes from the heart, not the mind. The mind needs to understand, but when the heart is touched, is when it responds with a wholesale selling out to God. A person can force themselves to change by knowing intellectually what they should do and by force of will, making themselves do it.

When the heart responds to God, the heart is changed and they do what they should because they're given a new heart and new nature.

God is about relationships, not performance. He looks on the heart and judges according to that. The heart is about relationship, while the mind is about performance.

Conviction, deep, Holy Spirit inspired, conviction, convicts the heart. When one has a broken heart over his sin and then repents of it and turns to God, saving faith has been exercised. I don't know anyone who was saved without a change of heart, not anyone that I've ever met anyway.

Psalm 51 is David's heart cry out over his sin....

Psalm 51:1-17 1 Have mercy on me, O God, according to your steadfast love; according to your abundant mercy blot out my transgressions. 2 Wash me thoroughly from my iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin!

3 For I know my transgressions, and my sin is ever before me. 4 Against you, you only, have I sinned and done what is evil in your sight, so that you may be justified in your words and blameless in your judgment. 5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me. 6 Behold, you delight in truth in the inward being, and you teach me wisdom in the secret heart.

7 Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean; wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow. 8 Let me hear joy and gladness; let the bones that you have broken rejoice. 9 Hide your face from my sins, and blot out all my iniquities. 10 Create in me a clean heart, O God, and renew a right spirit within me. 11 Cast me not away from your presence, and take not your Holy Spirit from me. 12 Restore to me the joy of your salvation, and uphold me with a willing spirit.

13 Then I will teach transgressors your ways, and sinners will return to you. 14 Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God, O God of my salvation, and my tongue will sing aloud of your righteousness. 15 O Lord, open my lips, and my mouth will declare your praise. 16 For you will not delight in sacrifice, or I would give it; you will not be pleased with a burnt offering. 17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart, O God, you will not despise.

I guess I don’t see saving faith as something that is works added to intellectual assent to transform it into saving faith, but as a differnt type of faith.

You can talk to them about any bizarre ideas you have about the Catholic faith cooperating with antichrist. They've faced down real antichrists in person. As I say, you can talk to them about it, in heaven ... if you make it.

Every religion has its own martyrs...Doesn't mean they died for a worthy cause...

God has put a beautiful feast in front of men in the form of the Catholic faith, but so many people spit in his face, tell him it's garbage, and pat themselves on their backs for how "faithful" they are.

Problem is; I (we) have arrived at our position by reading the words of God that he preserved for us (no thanks to the Catholic religion)...At at every turn, God condemns your religion in the scriptures...

I don't see anything in God's Holy word that would indicate your religion is the church that Jesus instituted...In fact, God warns us about your religion in the Book of Revelation...

They'll never, ever, not in a million years, catch up with the fantasies some people put out ABOUT my religion.

I don't know...It would be tough to top your religion's fantasy of salvation and grace comes thru Mary...Or that God made Mary the queen of heaven...

I think you pretty much nailed it metmom.

even some of their own people say he will be an antichrist

I have read the same thing...They expect to be sittin in the pews while this pope preaches to them...

They seem to have some details about this period of time that is not mentioned in the scriptures...

Perhaps that comes from a vision of Mary's ghost...

Saving faith is not intellectual assent alone, but it includes it. It is belief from the “heart” (Act 8:37), “And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God”.

The word “heart” refers to the center of all physical and spiritual life. It includes the soul, mind, and will. It is the seat and arbiter of our thoughts, passions, desires, appetites, affections, purposes, effort, understanding, intelligence, and emotions.

It produces trust, an assured reliance; one in which confidence is placed; a dependence on something future or contingent.

It produces hope.

Rom 10:9, “That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.”

Thank you. That is so much more concise than what I posted.

Saving faith comes from the heart, not the mind. The mind needs to understand, but when the heart is touched, is when it responds with a wholesale selling out to God. A person can force themselves to change by knowing intellectually what they should do and by force of will, making themselves do it.
When the heart responds to God, the heart is changed and they do what they should because they're given a new heart and new nature.

God is about relationships, not performance. He looks on the heart and judges according to that. The heart is about relationship, while the mind is about performance.

Yes, there must be a turning of the will, not just of the intellect, to God. But this is the Catholic position. From the Sixth Session of the Council of Trent (1547):

CHAPTER VII.
What the justification of the impious is, and what are the causes thereof.
This disposition, or preparation, is followed by Justification itself, which is not remission of sins merely, but also the sanctification and renewal of the inward man, through the voluntary reception of the grace, and of the gifts, whereby man of unjust becomes just, and of an enemy a friend, that so he may be an heir according to hope of life everlasting.
Of this Justification the causes are these:

the final cause indeed is the glory of God and of Jesus Christ, and life everlasting;
while the efficient cause is a merciful God who washes and sanctifies gratuitously, signing, and anointing with the holy Spirit of promise, who is the pledge of our inheritance;
but the meritorious cause is His most beloved only-begotten, our Lord Jesus Christ, who, when we were enemies, for the exceeding charity wherewith he loved us, merited Justification for us by His most holy Passion on the wood of the cross, and made satisfaction for us unto God the Father;
the instrumental cause is the sacrament of baptism, which is the sacrament of faith, without which (faith) no man was ever justified;
lastly, the alone formal cause is the justice of God, not that whereby He Himself is just, but that whereby He maketh us just, that, to wit, with which we being endowed by Him, are renewed in the spirit of our mind, and we are not only reputed, but are truly called, and are, just, receiving justice within us, each one according to his own measure, which the Holy Ghost distributes to every one as He wills, and according to each one's proper disposition and co-operation.
For, although no one can be just, but he to whom the merits of the Passion of our Lord Jesus Christ are communicated, yet is this done in the said justification of the impious, when by the merit of that same most holy Passion, the charity of God is poured forth, by the Holy Spirit, in the hearts of those that are justified, and is inherent therein: whence, man, through Jesus Christ, in whom he is ingrafted, receives, in the said justification, together with the remission of sins, all these (gifts) infused at once, faith, hope, and charity. For faith, unless hope and charity be added thereto, neither unites man perfectly with Christ, nor makes him a living member of His body. For which reason it is most truly said, that Faith without works is dead and profitless; and, In Christ Jesus neither circumcision, availeth anything, nor uncircumcision, but faith which worketh by charity. This faith, Catechumen's beg of the Church-agreeably to a tradition of the apostles-previously to the sacrament of Baptism; when they beg for the faith which bestows life everlasting, which, without hope and charity, faith cannot bestow: whence also do they immediately hear that word of Christ; If thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. Wherefore, when receiving true and Christian justice, they are bidden, immediately on being born again, to preserve it pure and spotless, as the first robe given them through Jesus Christ in lieu of that which Adam, by his disobedience, lost for himself and for us, that so they may bear it before the judgment-seat of our Lord Jesus Christ, and may have life everlasting.

When Catholics reject the notion of Salvation by Faith Alone they understand faith as intellectual assent. If you broaden the term of faith to include the will then that matches the Catholic understanding as presented in Chapter VII above.

I guess I don’t see saving faith as something that is works added to intellectual assent to transform it into saving faith, but as a differnt type of faith.

This reflects a common Protestant misunderstanding of the Catholic position on the importance of works. The Catholic Church does not teach that we merit our through works. Again, from the Council of Trent:

CHAPTER VIII.
In what manner it is to be understood, that the impious is justified by faith, and gratuitously.
And whereas the Apostle saith, that man is justified by faith and freely, those words are to be understood in that sense which the perpetual consent of the Catholic Church hath held and expressed; to wit, that we are therefore said to be justified by faith, because faith is the beginning of human salvation, the foundation, and the root of all Justification; without which it is impossible to please God, and to come unto the fellowship of His sons: but we are therefore said to be justified freely, because that none of those things which precede justification-whether faith or works-merit the grace itself of justification. For, if it be a grace, it is not now by works, otherwise, as the same Apostle says, grace is no more grace.

The Catholic church does not teach salvation by faith alone.

It teaches that baptism is necessary, that confession, communion, penance, works, etc.

And the average Catholic thinks that if they've done enough they can get into heaven with only an extended stay in purgatory to burn off any sins they forgot to confess here on earth.

I've had more than enough FRoman Catholics quote James at us and tell us that they'll know when they get there whether they've made it or not.

That is NOT salvation by faith. That is salvation by works, trying to merit enough of God's favor and appease enough of His anger to allow them in.

As a matter of fact, there's this little tidbit from the Council of Trent.

http://history.hanover.edu/texts/trent/ct06.html

CANON IX.-If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema.

CANON XX.-If any one saith, that the man who is justified and how perfect soever, is not bound to observe the commandments of God and of the Church, but only to believe; as if indeed the Gospel were a bare and absolute promise of eternal life, without the condition of observing the commandments ; let him be anathema.

CANON XI.-If any one saith, that men are justified, either by the sole imputation of the justice of Christ, or by the sole remission of sins, to the exclusion of the grace and the charity which is poured forth in their hearts by the Holy Ghost, and is inherent in them; or even that the grace, whereby we are justified, is only the favour of God; let him be anathema.

So you are saying that you are certain they were honoring her as part of the trinity??

So sorry you could not understand nor accept the difference between respect for the Human Mother of Christ and her being a deity. You may want to go back to religion class or CCD and learn the difference.

They may/should have been praying to her for intercession/assistance as the mother of Christ, and asking for assistance in praying to Jesus. If they did not know the difference they NEVER learned the proper understanding of Mary or of why and how one ask Mary for way to ask her for help with their prayers to the trinity/God. They need to go back to class or speak to a priest about it. You are not taught to pray to her as God.

My mother was a catholic school teacher and CCD instructor and did NOT teach anyone to venerate Mary as a God. That is what pagans do... speak to humans as a god or Gods.. and that is DISTINCTLY not part of the Church teachings.

Good luck in you search.

So you are saying that you are certain they were honoring her as part of the trinity??

What's that got to do with the discussion?

In post 192, you said, "Members of the Catholic church do not bow to images (other than that of Jesus Christ) nor is it taught to do so. "

and in post 222 I replied with

"ON the contrary, I was raised Roman Catholic and there were statues of Mary in the churches and people did indeed bow down before them and pray to Mary and light candles to her. I saw the people bowing down with my own eyes. "

Throw a rock over a fence and the dog that yelps is the one that got hit.

So where do you get that conclusion out of it, that I thought that people were honoring her as part of the Trinity, much less being certain of it? I simply addressed the fact that people bow down to statues of Mary which you said they didn't do.

Why are you changing the subject and reading more into it than I said? I said nothing about motivation or what was going through their minds. I didn't bring the Trinity into it.

Nice attempt misrepresenting what I said, but it's a fail.

So the whole rest of your post is a waste of bandwidth because it doesn't actually address what I really said and addressing what you think I said is a waste of time.

Only with an understanding of the separation of God and man in a Matrix (the movie) type of world could one see and understand the difference between God and Mary and references in approaching Mary.

The wording is necessarily a bit flowery and flowing. It is difficult for most to understand the separation, and yet the union of the mother of Christ to God. Not an easy concept for many to grasp the nuances.

Similar to the many judges to grasping the word in the constitution and concepts or the church and the state and not to understand the separation of the two. It really takes a thinking mind to give it more than just passing acknowledgment or the words written and the concepts involved.

Many never get the concepts of the meaning -vs- the words right. But to those who do it is silly to think the justices are so unable to do so also. Not a perfect explanation by any means.

I have a great T-Shirt that says "I can tell it to you, but I can not understand it for you"
Although that shirt and the wording is referring to computer/tech stuff it applies to this situation and discussion.

The TV commercial "No, I am not a doctor, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn" probably could also work.