Saul And The Charismatics...

And when Saul saw the host of the Philistines, he was afraid, and his heart greatly trembled. And when Saul enquired of the LORD, the LORD answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets. Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and enquire of her. And his servants said to him, Behold, there is a woman that hath a familiar spirit at Endor.(I Samuel 28:5-7)

I have no problem believing that God sovereignly granted revival in the 1960′s -70′s, renewing faith in the reality of Jesus, introducing church people to Jesus for the first time, and baptizing multitudes from all walks of life, and over the spectrum of denominations in the Holy Ghost. The movement became known as the Charismatic renewal.

… it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:(Acts 2:17-18)

I myself came to Christ at the end of the 1970′s, in a charismatic church. But the critical question of any movement is not one of the beginning, but of the end…how does it end?

Of course in one sense the Charismatic movement never ends, for it didn’t begin in the 1960′s nor at Azusa street, but in Jerusalem. It shall never end, being established by Jesus, clothed in the Holy Spirit and known as the church.

But the charismatic movement as a historical reality, that sovereign move of God of 40 years ago,which turned so many to Jesus and the Spirit in a godless day, has been co-opted by it’s “leaders” and seems to be going the way of King Saul.

Saul seriously disobeyed God at several key points in his life, doing what he “felt” was right, rather than adhering to the Word of God. He wouldn’t go by the Word, but by “feelings”. God called that rebellion and even “witchcraft”,

And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams. For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.(I Samuel 15:22-23)

One of the problems with the Charismatic movement, was that it was beset with a variety of false teachers. Oral Roberts, with his seed faith, prosperity teaching. New Thought influenced teachers such as Kenneth Hagin and Copeland, who taught that we are all “little gods”, and could create our own reality by our words.

Who can forget the “deliverance movement” which was basically superstitious hysteria, but brought millions into bondage? How about the attempt by some to bring about order, imposing the cultic and oppressive “shepherding movement”?

False teaching imposes a terrible toll, it breaks down the defenses and corrupts the soul. Doctrine, good or bad, is not insignificant, it is of critical importance.

The Prophetic movement heralded by the false Kansas City Prophets and John Wimber, promoted experience over doctrine, and induced millions into “spiritual drunkenness” and gnostic mysticism.

These are just a sampling of the influences which flooded into the wake of millions of people coming to a living faith in Jesus and an awareness of the Holy Spirit. Like an accumulation of toxins in a body they have had an eroding effect on the church.

Time fails me to go into the other excesses such as the unbiblical ecumenism, the Toronto and Pensacola movements, neo apostles and prophets, and spiritual warfare.

The common theme of all of these excesses is that the charismatics have always been strongly urged not to judge! Discernment has been ridiculed and criticized! These things have taken a toll.

At the end of Saul’s life, he went into the occult. God wasn’t speaking to him anymore. Samuel was by now dead, although Saul consistently ignored him whilst alive. Saul had chased David away. killed the priests and found himself in real trouble.

And when Saul enquired of the LORD, the LORD answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets.

He who had once purged the land of witches and wizards, now sought out a witch, that he might commune with the now dead Samuel!

Benny Hinn is just one Charismatic leader who has testified of his own necromancy,(communication with the dead). He tells os his frequent visits to Kathryn Kuhlman’s tomb, to get an impartation of “her anointing”!

“One of the strangest experiences I had a few years ago [was] visiting Aimee’s tomb in California. This Thursday I’m on TBN. Friday I am gonna go and visit Kathryn Kuhlman’s tomb. It’s close by Aimee’s in Forest Lawn Cemetery. I’ve been there once already and every so often I like to go and pay my respects ‘cause this great woman of God has touched my life. And that grave, uh, where she’s buried is closed, they built walls around it. You can’t get in without a key and I’m one of the very few people who can get in. But I’ll never forget when I saw Aimee’s tomb. It’s incredibly dramatic. She was such a lady that her tomb has seven-foot angels bowing on each side of her tomb with a gold chain around it. As—as incredible as it is that someone would die with angels bowing on each side of her grave, I felt a terrific anointing when I was there. I actually, I—I, hear this, I trembled when I visited Aimee’s tomb. I was shaking all over. God’s power came all over me. … I believe the anointing has lingered over Aimee’s body. I know this may be shocking to you. … And I’m going to take David [Palmquist] and Kent [Mattox] and Sheryl [Palmquist] this week. They’re gonna come with me. You—you—you gonna feel the anointing at Aimee’s tomb. It’s incredible. And Kathryn’s. It’s amazing. I’ve heard of people healed when they visited that tomb. They were totally healed by God’s power. You say, ‘What a crazy thing.’ Brother, there’s things we’ll never understand. Are you all hearing me?”11Benny Hinn sermon, Double Portion Anointing, Part #3, Orlando Christian Center, Orlando, Fla., April 7, 1991. From the series, Holy Ghost Invasion. TV#309, tape on file.

Familiarity with the Word of God would deliver Hinn’s followers, for God says He hates the sin of necromancy. Isaiah tells us that those who seek anything from the dead have no light in them,

When someone tells you to consult mediums and spiritists, who whisper and mutter, should not a people inquire of their God? Why consult the dead on behalf of the living? Consult God’s instruction and the testimony of warning. If anyone does not speak according to this word, they have no light of dawn(Isaiah 8:9-12)

The flavor of the day in Charismatic circles is Bethel church in Redding California, headed by a Word Faith, Prophetic movement, pastor , Bill Johnson. At His Bethel School of ministry, he teaches students to “honor the Generals of revival”, that is leaders such as Smith Wigglesworth, Aimee Semple Mcpherson, Evan Roberts, and others.

“Honoring” them to Johnson means compiling a vast collection of their books and artifacts,and opening a “generals library” for charismatics to visit. But like Hinn, Johnson also believes in visiting their tombs, and literally “soaking” the “anointing” by being in the presence of their graves.

Those who discern are seeing countless other evidences that like Saul, the Charismatic movement has gone into the occult, for false prophecy, dream interpretation, necromancy,spiritual drunkenness are all characteristics, not of christian spirituality but “the delusion”, a revival of deceiving spirits that Paul warned about, as a consequence of rejection of the Word of God.

For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.( 2 Thess 2:8-12)

That is what the author meant by the pain of healing.

I'd still have the same response if things are as you or author presented them - a charlatan 'acting' and not indeed a vessel being used of God. Those that came away hurt chose this way to learn what they could have learned from Scripture.

I do believe we all learn some things the hard way. Some decide to remain bitter and/or decide they will never be healed and some will decide to go back to Scripture and SEEK - Seek His Kingdom first.

We chose pain because it makes us feel better - it is some else's fault. Admitting they were duped is hard for a prideful man. Most of us have been duped one way or another. Laugh and get over it OR chose being in pain about it - it's their choice. It's not like we aren't told through Scripture there are wolves out there.

If they truly believed they are to be healed - they would never be questioning themselves what is wrong with them - they showed unbelief by questioning.

And if they truly believed they are to be healed in the natural - that faith alone would heal them.

Look at the lady with the issue of blood - she just reached out and believe she received it and she did. Jesus didn't lay hands on her nor touch her. Everyone else where touching Him to be near Him. She didn't even touch Him - just His garment - she did it on her own because SHE BELIEVED without a shadow of doubt and took action on that belief in spite of what could have happened to her with her blood issue. Before that, as we know, she put her faith in man and we know what that got her.

Even now, no one is dealing with the plain English I've articulated. It's just a biased rant disagreeing justified by all the stuff we agree on.

Quix, nobody is ranting. Well, almost nobody. Please try to be a little more objective. What seems to be going on is that you're taking our disagreeing with some of the teachings and excesses of the Pentecostal movement a bit too personally.

For one, I'm not that dumb, regardless of what folks think.

No one even came close so suggesting or implying that you were. However, psychologist that you are, perhaps that should be revealing something to you about you if you are presuming that. Projection perhaps? Or self-esteem issues?

bb: This argument that has been ongoing for days and days now keeps coming back to this one issue - tongues. You say you have experienced it so you cannot speak against it, though you admit people fake it, use it wrong, think more highly of themselves than they ought and that charlatans are out there. We agree on those points

Quix:IIRC, that's the FIRST time anyone from y'all's side has admitted that very forthrightly, if at all. Evidently ya'll have little to no concept of what a horrific communications thing that is.

No, it's what we've been trying to tell you all along.

I'll tell you what though, you are hardly the first person I've ever encountered who's melted down when some cherished belief or highly thought of spiritual figure has been criticized in any way.

It's happened to me more than once when I've expressed an opinion about something that is different from mainstream, that the person to whom I'm talking just melts down about it instead of discussing it. If someone really thinks I'm wrong about something, why not simply ask why I think that way and listen to the answer and correct me if I'm wrong?

Why do people take it as such a personal attack? Maybe I'm NOT wrong about it after all. Maybe they are and don't know it. But when someone goes into orbit the minute something they believe is criticized in any way, then there are bigger issues they need to deal with than my not agreeing with their opinion.

I still stand by my opinion on the excesses that I have heard of and experienced in relation to the Pentecostal movement.

And I find it incongruous that you would agree as to the existence of the abuses and excesses and then flip out because we interpret the Scripture used to support those same abuses and excesses differently than those who advocate said abuses and excesses.

And, I really encourage folks to listen to the Curry Blake stuff and to the David Wilkerson prophetic sermon.

I have been and I did. I agree with Curry on about 98% of what he teaches, except mostly the tongues issue and I am not quite so willing as he is to presume that every historically recorded instance of healing claimed by those like Lake and Wigglesworth, actually happened. There's simply no way of verifying and there are some cases where there has been investigation into their claims that prove otherwise.

As far as Wilkerson, it's an interesting sermon and only time will tell if it is going to come to pass. I will NOT take as set in stone some *prophecy* based on a dream and my expressing skepticism until it's fulfilled is not a sign of my lack of spirituality, but rather falls under the *test the spirits* kind of thinking. Taking everything as gospel that someone says, *God told me.....* is absolutely foolhardy. If it's not Scripture, then it rightly needs to be suspect and thoroughly scrutinized, no matter who said it and how much you like him.

Another situation of blaming the victim.

The charlatan CLAIMED to have been a vessel being used by God. Is it the fault of the victim that that charlatan was lying? It's a Catch 22 for the person afflicted by your reasoning.

If they don't believe the person claiming to be God's vessel, they they're displaying lack of faith and can't/won't get healed. So it's their fault for being hurt by the healing teaching.

If they believe them and the person is lying, it was their own fault they were hurt because they were gullible for believing something from them they could have learned in Scripture; it's their own fault because they were trusting enough to take someone at their word. (What a crime.)

In fact, the only thing the afflicted person can be *condemned* for is being too trusting.

So no matter which way you look at it, it's a lose/lose situation for the person who was not healed. None of the blame goes on the person who misled and lied, but rather on the person seeking the healing for not doing it right, or not having enough faith, or whatever.

This is the VERY criticism I have of the charismatic/Pentecostal movement, that it does more spiritual damage to the afflicted person than the affliction does.

Christians are indeed the only ones who shoot their wounded.

It's their fault somehow......yada, yada, yada

Ok, now I see these are your words. Quix, I thought you responded to the wrong person, sorry, I get it now. Metmom, I address that part in my post to Quix.

The pain that's inflicted by others who claim to be members of the body of Christ who instead of lifting up and encouraging, bring on the condemnation to the person afflicted for their not being healed.

The key word is claim because we all know there is NO condemnation to those who are in Christ. I agree that there should be encouragement and I'd dismiss those who condemn.

Why do I have to work for the healing if it's part of the atonement? Shouldn't that be by faith as well?

YES! Faith in The Words of JESUS!!

The hurt in the healing is inflicted on the sick person by others who should know better and should not be adding to the burden of being sick with more burden of guilt and condemnation.

REJECT any guilt or condemnation as it is not from God.

I wouldn't do some stupid stunt he insisted I do, that was to eat something I knew I would react to, to *prove* I had enough faith to be healed.

First of all believe you have the faith, don't question it. Secondly, I don't know exactly what he was trying to do but rejecting you was simply wrong as you know. He's learning, also.

My take on this if you got sick from whatever, if you believe you are healed - and not wait to see the healing first - you speak to the sickness and say I'm not receiving you/sickness because I'm healed. Say what you believe and not what you see. Jesus did that - before they picked up their mat - He said what He believed to be true to them.

I heard of some getting instant healing but mine was anything but instant. I had to go through six months of hell with things being compounded on me, not just one ailment. I wouldn't be moved by what I saw and the results or their 'threats' like if you don't do this, blah, blah, stuff. I said I'm not doing anything and sickness is not from God. They sent shrinks down to see me on 3 separate occasions and they were told by my family don't question my mind. I witnessed to these nice Jewish psychiatrists as I told them about Jesus and where I'm coming from. The 3rd one wasn't nice as he probably lost the flip bet to see who was going to see that crazy person on the 4th floor. And probably po'd him more when he drew the curtain aside and saw this dying person with a smile. I told him I don't fault him at all because all he knows is what he was taught and he can't understand where I'm coming from because he doesn't know Jesus. I asked him would he like to know about Jesus. He abruptly closed the curtain. At least the others listened very attentively both times but they were older, the po'd one was much much younger. I say listen attentively because they are trained to, not because of what I was saying. But there is follow up and they know what I said JESUS said did happen and that He is faithful!

And you know He is faithful, also, and He doesn't condemn or say you lack faith because He gave it to you/us. What He didn't give us is any unbelief as - we aren't good/worthy, He won't do it for me, maybe there is something else I need to do/what am I missing, why not me, or whatever. It really has nothing to do with us - as we know by the centurion - but what JESUS already DID and SAID in His Word.

Don't give me any of that "What BS! Victimhood - someone else's fault. The hurt of healing. LOL! Sounds more like jealousy created from the person himself. " until you've been there.

Didn't you put yourself there? You took on hurt instead of Truth. You know the Truth. You know man deceives so why be hurt because they do or appear to do something other than we needed/wanted at the time? Believe me - I've been there BIG TIME and I let it go as quickly as it was given and chose to learn something from it and not even speak about it. It's so unimportant to me NOW what others do/don't do and how others receive it or perceive it.

The people so treated are just left to flounder if it doesn't happen the way every one else thinks it should.

Why consider they are floundering? Sounds like a defeatist attitude which is unbelief. Who is the Final Authority in your church and what does HE say?

A crime that they are hurt? If they want to dwell on it they can, if they want to learn from it, they can. People usually do they whatever is to their own advantage OR easier.

None of the blame goes on the person who misled and lied, but rather on the person seeking the healing for not doing it right, or not having enough faith, or whatever.

If someone is looking for a scapegoat they will look to blame someone/something. I'm not. IMO, that's being stuck. I move on knowing that I have a lot to learn and will continue on the journey I'm on. If I stop to nurse every hurt and every wrong word spoken to me or about me - it's my own fault if I never arrive at my destination/what I'm after.

Christians are indeed the only ones who shoot their wounded.

Christians should know enough to pick themselves up and dust themselves off and move forward. We have Jesus as an example who suffered hurt billions of people had and He forgave those who whipped, scourged, spit, nailed sinless Him. Who are we to complain or blame.

Didn't you put yourself there?

NO! I didn't ask for this and I didn't ask for ignorant believers to stand there and judge and condemn me to my face. Again, it's the *It's your fault you're sick, you're hurt, you're whatever* The same placing condemnation on people that has been going on all along.

The truth is I've been prayed for time without count, all according to Scriptural standards, calling the elders, anointing with oil, hands laid on me, anything else you can think of and NOTHING has happened.

And in typical fashion, instead of just praying for me, well meaning but ignorant believers condemn me for not being healed because God didn't do in my life what they think He should have.

That is EXACTLY my beef with pentecostalism. I'm just one of the have not's because I'm not good enough, I'm not spiritual enough, I don't have enough faith, it didn't work for me like it worked for you, because God didn't work according to their formula.

You know what? God can't be reduced to a formula.

Enough already.

What I don't accept anymore is that somehow these believers are showing the love of Christ to another member of the body.

Luke 17:5-6 The apostles said to the Lord, “Increase our faith!” And the Lord said, “If you had faith like a grain of mustard seed, you could say to this mulberry tree, ‘Be uprooted and planted in the sea,’ and it would obey you.

My healing is NOT dependent on the amount of faith I have. It's not how big my faith is but how big the God I have faith in is.

This is the God who created the universe with just the power of His Word, who holds the universe together, who holds the nucleus of the atom together in violation of the laws of physics, who knitted me together in my mother's womb, whose eyes saw my unformed substance and in whose book were written all the days formed for me when as yet there were none of them.

Can He heal me? Yes. My God is perfectly capable of healing this body He created.

Has He healed me? Not yet.

Will He heal me? On this earth, I don't know. in heaven, yes.

But how dare you sit in judgment on another believer and tell them they're not good enough because God isn't working in their lives as you think He ought to, and because they aren't doing it your way.

I am not interested in being coddled and it's not a matter of my widdle feeling being hurt, but the damage (hurt) done to my spiritual life is not to be scorned or sneered at and not everyone is as strong willed or well grounded in Scripture as I am.

I don't want your sympathy, but neither do I want your judgment and condemnation.

Curry Blake off and on mentions a number of things people have used over the years to explain why people didn’t get healed.

And, he notes that people have been healed through his faith and the faith of folks he’s taught how to have that kind of faith—i.e. that the faith of the one praying is sufficient regardless of what’s going on with the receiver.

I think he’s mostly right.

I don’t know that it applies in all respects and all cases but I think he’s mostly right.

And, he usually cites similar Biblical cases in the Gospels.

I think I pinged you because I think Curry Blake is a riot to listen to and I do believe he is exceedingly Biblical.

Besides that, God honors his ministry.

Well put.

I don’t believe most folks are charlatans or counterfeits.

Most folks are merely flawed human beings doing the best they know to do with their flawed faith and flawed teaching.

And who’s isn’t.

We ALL see through the glass dimly. None of us have it 100% figured out.

Curry Blake is way above average as was John Wimber.

Lots of very prissy gilded rocks are thrown at folks who are doing an authentic ministry of The Lord more or less as best they know how. A number of ministers are not to my taste and I’m more than a little concerned about a few of them. However, unless God has me in a position to exhort them directly or warn a vulnerable immature about something amiss in such a ministry . . . I’d prefer to avoid throwing rocks at them. It’s a hazardous hobby.

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