Saul And The Charismatics...

And when Saul saw the host of the Philistines, he was afraid, and his heart greatly trembled. And when Saul enquired of the LORD, the LORD answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets. Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and enquire of her. And his servants said to him, Behold, there is a woman that hath a familiar spirit at Endor.(I Samuel 28:5-7)

I have no problem believing that God sovereignly granted revival in the 1960′s -70′s, renewing faith in the reality of Jesus, introducing church people to Jesus for the first time, and baptizing multitudes from all walks of life, and over the spectrum of denominations in the Holy Ghost. The movement became known as the Charismatic renewal.

… it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:(Acts 2:17-18)

I myself came to Christ at the end of the 1970′s, in a charismatic church. But the critical question of any movement is not one of the beginning, but of the end…how does it end?

Of course in one sense the Charismatic movement never ends, for it didn’t begin in the 1960′s nor at Azusa street, but in Jerusalem. It shall never end, being established by Jesus, clothed in the Holy Spirit and known as the church.

But the charismatic movement as a historical reality, that sovereign move of God of 40 years ago,which turned so many to Jesus and the Spirit in a godless day, has been co-opted by it’s “leaders” and seems to be going the way of King Saul.

Saul seriously disobeyed God at several key points in his life, doing what he “felt” was right, rather than adhering to the Word of God. He wouldn’t go by the Word, but by “feelings”. God called that rebellion and even “witchcraft”,

And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams. For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.(I Samuel 15:22-23)

One of the problems with the Charismatic movement, was that it was beset with a variety of false teachers. Oral Roberts, with his seed faith, prosperity teaching. New Thought influenced teachers such as Kenneth Hagin and Copeland, who taught that we are all “little gods”, and could create our own reality by our words.

Who can forget the “deliverance movement” which was basically superstitious hysteria, but brought millions into bondage? How about the attempt by some to bring about order, imposing the cultic and oppressive “shepherding movement”?

False teaching imposes a terrible toll, it breaks down the defenses and corrupts the soul. Doctrine, good or bad, is not insignificant, it is of critical importance.

The Prophetic movement heralded by the false Kansas City Prophets and John Wimber, promoted experience over doctrine, and induced millions into “spiritual drunkenness” and gnostic mysticism.

These are just a sampling of the influences which flooded into the wake of millions of people coming to a living faith in Jesus and an awareness of the Holy Spirit. Like an accumulation of toxins in a body they have had an eroding effect on the church.

Time fails me to go into the other excesses such as the unbiblical ecumenism, the Toronto and Pensacola movements, neo apostles and prophets, and spiritual warfare.

The common theme of all of these excesses is that the charismatics have always been strongly urged not to judge! Discernment has been ridiculed and criticized! These things have taken a toll.

At the end of Saul’s life, he went into the occult. God wasn’t speaking to him anymore. Samuel was by now dead, although Saul consistently ignored him whilst alive. Saul had chased David away. killed the priests and found himself in real trouble.

And when Saul enquired of the LORD, the LORD answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets.

He who had once purged the land of witches and wizards, now sought out a witch, that he might commune with the now dead Samuel!

Benny Hinn is just one Charismatic leader who has testified of his own necromancy,(communication with the dead). He tells os his frequent visits to Kathryn Kuhlman’s tomb, to get an impartation of “her anointing”!

“One of the strangest experiences I had a few years ago [was] visiting Aimee’s tomb in California. This Thursday I’m on TBN. Friday I am gonna go and visit Kathryn Kuhlman’s tomb. It’s close by Aimee’s in Forest Lawn Cemetery. I’ve been there once already and every so often I like to go and pay my respects ‘cause this great woman of God has touched my life. And that grave, uh, where she’s buried is closed, they built walls around it. You can’t get in without a key and I’m one of the very few people who can get in. But I’ll never forget when I saw Aimee’s tomb. It’s incredibly dramatic. She was such a lady that her tomb has seven-foot angels bowing on each side of her tomb with a gold chain around it. As—as incredible as it is that someone would die with angels bowing on each side of her grave, I felt a terrific anointing when I was there. I actually, I—I, hear this, I trembled when I visited Aimee’s tomb. I was shaking all over. God’s power came all over me. … I believe the anointing has lingered over Aimee’s body. I know this may be shocking to you. … And I’m going to take David [Palmquist] and Kent [Mattox] and Sheryl [Palmquist] this week. They’re gonna come with me. You—you—you gonna feel the anointing at Aimee’s tomb. It’s incredible. And Kathryn’s. It’s amazing. I’ve heard of people healed when they visited that tomb. They were totally healed by God’s power. You say, ‘What a crazy thing.’ Brother, there’s things we’ll never understand. Are you all hearing me?”11Benny Hinn sermon, Double Portion Anointing, Part #3, Orlando Christian Center, Orlando, Fla., April 7, 1991. From the series, Holy Ghost Invasion. TV#309, tape on file.

Familiarity with the Word of God would deliver Hinn’s followers, for God says He hates the sin of necromancy. Isaiah tells us that those who seek anything from the dead have no light in them,

When someone tells you to consult mediums and spiritists, who whisper and mutter, should not a people inquire of their God? Why consult the dead on behalf of the living? Consult God’s instruction and the testimony of warning. If anyone does not speak according to this word, they have no light of dawn(Isaiah 8:9-12)

The flavor of the day in Charismatic circles is Bethel church in Redding California, headed by a Word Faith, Prophetic movement, pastor , Bill Johnson. At His Bethel School of ministry, he teaches students to “honor the Generals of revival”, that is leaders such as Smith Wigglesworth, Aimee Semple Mcpherson, Evan Roberts, and others.

“Honoring” them to Johnson means compiling a vast collection of their books and artifacts,and opening a “generals library” for charismatics to visit. But like Hinn, Johnson also believes in visiting their tombs, and literally “soaking” the “anointing” by being in the presence of their graves.

Those who discern are seeing countless other evidences that like Saul, the Charismatic movement has gone into the occult, for false prophecy, dream interpretation, necromancy,spiritual drunkenness are all characteristics, not of christian spirituality but “the delusion”, a revival of deceiving spirits that Paul warned about, as a consequence of rejection of the Word of God.

For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.( 2 Thess 2:8-12)

I could probably document a couple or more dozen pages of my lines in this thread alone that have been totally ignored . . . that were quite substantive and often with Biblical support.

Well, unless they have Biblical support, don't bother substantiating them. Limit yourself to the ones that DO have it.

Besides, they have not been "totally ignored". I daresay that we could go through this thread post by post and find every objection of yours responded to by someone here, with Scripture no less.

Do not give yourself too much credit for your spiritual insight and maturity. Take heed that you stand, lest you fall.

Yeah, we know. You've had years of experience over the far reaches of the planet, with all kinds of people and have seen it all and know it all.

I'm sorry that we're not more in awe of your spiritual prowess and expertise but when most of what you're relying on to back yourself up is based not on Scripture but experience (aka the traditions of men), then you are NOT going to find a audience of willing hearers and followers.

I don't doubt that many of the experiences you've been through actually happened or happened as you say. What I do doubt is your interpretation of them or their validity as being from God, simply because there is no solid Scriptural support for them in the Bible.

And when your best retort is a image of a bunny with a roll of toilet paper on its head and whining that "Sometimes it's good to bring absolutely nothing to the intellectual table", your credibility takes a nosedive from which it may never recover.

We've expressed some concerns, valid by your own admission in many cases, of the abuses and excesses of the charismatic/pentecostal movement and get that in response?

Before you finally take off in an indignant huff because we don't recognize your spiritual giantness, do a pride check and see if your ego isn't getting in the way of you seeing clearly. The offense that you appear to be taking because we aren't agreeing with you is sending off huge warning flags and red lights that something is NOT right in your opinion of yourself.

Yes, I understand, Do You? You are the one that doesn’t believe, I DO!

I am the "one" that doesn't believe what, exactly? Jesus said quite clearly in that passage in John 9, that the man blind from birth was NOT because of his sin or those of his parents, but so that God would be glorified. This incident happened after the altercation Jesus had with the religious leaders where they tried to stone him for saying he was equal to God by forgiving sins. The blind beggar could NOT see Jesus, but Jesus saw him and when his disciples asked Jesus why the man was born blind, he very clearly said so that God would be glorified and his power made manifest. When the beggar was blind no more, he went about telling everyone of the miracle and that Jesus was the promised Messiah.

The point was that sickness is not always because of particular sins but that God is over all and when he allows sickness, he has a purpose. Sometimes that purpose is to not take it away, to not heal it, and that seems to be what "faith-healers" and those that promote their works often miss. As to whether or not there are specific people who have the first-century "gift" of healing, I say look at what they do, how they do it, who they use to demonstrate this supposed power, who gets the glory, and how they deal with people who do not respond to their actions. In most cases, the sick person is blamed for the failure of the faith healer. If people were honest about it, they would understand that God no longer uses men with this power, that his Word is the standard by which to measure the source of the power and that it is God, alone, who heals or does not heal - all for HIS glory.

Many people who are within the upper echelons of this movement are characterized by things that SHOULD give a spiritually mature Christian pause. From the site http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/exposes/wimber/general.htm, we learn:

Wimber's doctrine of Demonology was thoroughly unscriptural; he saw demons behind many physical illnesses, and most emotional problems, entering into people, both lost and saved, in varying degrees, either for "possession" or "oppression," so as to control all or some aspects of their lives. "There is no biblical basis for the notion that demons are free to cause illnesses outside the context of full demon possession. [And the power of Satan to enter and "possess" souls uninvited; i.e., at the whim of the demon, was ended at Christ's resurrection.] The only case in the Bible of a person who suffered from an illness caused by Satan without being demon possessed, is that of Job" (Masters, p. 86).

But even then, Satan had to secure permission from God, which would indicate that Satan and his demons have no power to inflict illnesses in the ordinary course of events. To treat illnesses on the basis of a demon needing to be expelled from a particular organ, as Wimber taught, is an idea derived from pagan religious cults and/or the priestcraft of Rome, not from the Bible. Believers will certainly do battle with the wiles and temptations wrought by Satan, "but nowhere in the New Testament is temptation resisted by a process of commanding demons to loose their hold or leave a Christian's mind or body. Satan is resisted by being denied success in the temptation. Or if he mounts an attack of depressive suggestions, he is resisted as the believer strives to keep hold of the comfort and promises of God's Word" (Masters, p. 92).

Professor Verna Wright, M.D., Rheumatology, concluded that the great dangers of Wimber's "miraculous healing teaching" are: (1) "it discredits the person of Christ because of the very obvious failures, when we claim to serve a Savior Who never fails"; (2) "it undermines the Word, because it elevates a new form of 'revelation' -- so-called words of knowledge or prophecy"; (3) "it deceives Christians and breeds a race of gullible believers, taken in by virtually anything"; (4) "it increases the agony of suffering"; (5) "it removes Christian comfort"; and (6) "it diminishes Christian testimony." (Cited in Masters, p. 227)

Wimber always placed himself and his ministry above criticism; "... he equates those who measure a practice or ministry by Scripture with the unbelieving scribes. This effectively insulates his teaching and practice from Scriptural critique. He is equating his ministry with non-recognition of the person and ministry of the Holy Spirit ... Wimber is hiding behind a facade of true adherence to the moving of the Spirit of God in order to insulate his theology and practices from those who would unravel the facade with God's Word. At the same time, he equates anyone that would challenge that facade with those who did not recognize Jesus' authority and work. This is a cult mentality that does not address the real issue: whether or not these practices and ideas are biblical" (MS, p. 23-24).

So, you say you understand the point of John 9 and question my understanding AND my belief. Perhaps, it is NOT me that is lacking in faith. Those who MUST have experience to convince them of God's working set themselves up for deception and ultimately, control by forces NOT from God.

How many times do I have to say . . .

I don't recall seeing a single shred of evidence that y'all have understood a single sentence of what I've written--particularly about where I have disagreed but 97% mostly also where I've agreed.

Fantasies about such are not reality.

The issue is not the disagreement.

The issue is the seemingly blanket stonewalling abject refusal to seemingly even let some simple language register on y'all's consciousness.

This sentence is yet more PROOF

that I've not been understood a microgram's worth:

What's your faith in Quix? Christ or signs?

It's NOT about disagreement.
It's NOT about disagreement.
It's NOT about disagreement.
It's NOT about disagreement.
It's NOT about disagreement.
It's NOT about disagreement.
It's NOT about disagreement.

I'm NOT that stupid a psychologist. I know y'all fairly well. I wouldn't predict that y'all would change toward agreement with me short of a burning bush visitation by God Almighty forcefully rewiring y'all's synapses. I'm not so ignorant as to EXPECT a shred of agreement.

I've not expected any such on the whole thread. The MOST I've had fantasies about was that there MIGHT be 1-3% better communication this thread than the last similar exercises in abject futility. Now THAT I was very stupid to hope for.

Are you interested in all in Scripture and time lines in the Bible, Quix? Especially the Book of Acts, where the transition from law to grace, from a kingdom of believers (Israel) to a body of believers (the Church the body of Christ), from the earthly to the heavenly, from the old to the new, takes place?

Because, if you are at all interested in God's timetable for man, then the Scriptures give you the answers you are fighting so hard against. If you are just interested in signs, wonders and miracles, then all the Scriptures in the world won't be enough to PROVE to you that there was a reason for them and there will be a reason for them again, but during this age of grace, they have been withdrawn. He is not seeking an earthly kingdom of believers right now. He is seeking a body of believers right now. Who are blessed with all spiritual blessings IN HEAVENLY PLACES. Earthly signs, wonders and miracles are for an earthly people. Israel. They are His prophesied earthly kingdom of priests and will be a blessing to all nations, when He returns and sets up His kingdom on this earth. If they are temporarily blinded and set aside, then what about those miracles, signs, and wonders for them? Do you think God just transfered them to the body of Christ? For what reason? Really. For what reason would He do that? We are to "set our affection on things which are ABOVE, NOT on things on THE EARTH." Col. 3:1,2. Things on the earth would be miracles, signs and wonders. Meant for an earthly people who must endure to the end to go into the Kingdom.

Do you think you will be going through the tribulation and need those things in order to endure to the end?

And lest you believe that God is desiring us to spend our time working on this world to make it fit for Christ's return, let me remind you of this Scripture. "Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this PRESENT EVIL WORLD, according TO THE WILL OF GOD and our Father."(Gal.1:4)

Notice, Paul did NOT say that God has commanded us to FIX this present evil world, or that we have been given power to transform this present evil world. Only that He will DELIVER us from this present evil world.

Our job is to preach the gospel of the grace of God in this present evil world. To be amassadors for Christ, preaching the reconciliation of God and man through the finished work of Christ. And also to reprove, rebuke and exhort with all longsuffering and DOCTRINE. So that when the truth starts going off the rails, it can be restored, WITH SCRIPTURE, so we can get on with our job.

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