Posted on 03/17/2012 7:26:45 AM PDT by GonzoII
There is no such thing as free will. There is God’s will and there is man’s will. God’s will is good. Man’s will is against God’s will and is evil. Otherwise it would be God’s will.
Tell me. If you have free will, then why don’t you do God’s will every single moment of your Christian life? After all, you ARE free to choose aren’t you?
As Catholics we do not accept Total Deprivation as described by Calvin. While we concede that there is a deprivation of original holiness, we believe that human nature has not been totally corrupted.
Through original sin human nature is wounded and inclined to sin. We call that inclination concupiscence". However, the sanctifying Grace of Baptism erases original sin and turns a man back towards God, but our nature remains weakened and inclined to sin requiring a state of spiritual battle.
The KJV in many places copied the then-existing English language scriptures that were Catholic.
Why do you claim the Holy Scriptures were not available in English before KJV, when the historical facts are otherwise?
The point has been made by others, some of them knowledgable catholics, that the English language didn’t even exist before the time of the KJV. The “english” Geneva edition of that time would not be understandable to most readers now.
Yes. Both Calvin and Arminius were wrong.
You clearly do not understand Arminianism. It is the same as Catholicism. “I choose freely...”
Negative. Arminianism consists of faith alone (I choose to have faith). They are born dead and can choose to have life. Catholics disagree. We are born mortally wounded, and it is not enough to simply hold on the life preserver of Grace. But Calvinists do not believe a in life preserver. They are born dead and only the elect are plucked. Neither Calvinism nor Arminianism is Scripturally correct.
And your slogans are correct only if you think your t-shirt is God.
Neither God nor Dagon. I am not Calvinist. Neither am I Arminian.
Shoot, you can go back farther than that. God was constantly telling the Israelites that they were to be holy to the Lord. Fat lot of good it did them.
Are you telling me that either God was incompetent in His instructions to the Israelites or else He was deliberately telling them to do something meaningless?
So it is not by our strength that we do anything. As our Lord stated, "Apart from me you can do nothing." (John 15:5) And as Paul stated, "I can do all things in him [sic:Christ] (Phil 4:13) who strengthens me."
But doing nothing is not an option. Without God's Grace, we cannot be saved. All men are Judged on their last day. And not for the seat number in the celestial football stadium that some folks think that the Judgement means.
We are to encourage one another to good works, but those good works are the results of God's Spirit choosing to work through us. We submit to God but it is only because God helps us to submit to Him.
We are in accord. However, if everything is predestined, then I need behave only as I see fit whenever I see that fitness occur. By my own judgement, and not His.
But we would rather be in BMW.......
The Catholic Church made the scriptures available in vernacular English of the day, contrary to the old saw that the Church did not want people to know the scriptures.
Then God is the cause of all your sins. And your reality of choosing is only an illusion.
Why do you choose to repeat this as you demonstrate otherwise?
If you have free will, then why don’t you do God’s will every single moment of your Christian life?
Because I'm not perfect.
Part of it is knowledge and experience; I make much better choices now than before. But I'm still not perfect, I still have weaknesses, we all do. I have limitations and illnesses; we all do. But our imperfection does not negate free will. Free will does not necessarily require perfection. This is clearly a non sequitur argument you have constructed.
You've glommed onto a simplistic, un-realistic answer to the human condition and built a whole theology around it. Rather, adopted Calvin's.
To you it makes sense, unless you see the reality of your own free will choices. It requires a kind of blindness to the true human condition, the struggle and responsibilities, challenges, successes and failures. And those of others. It most closely resembles attributing everything to Fate. IMHO, it is a philosophical escape.
One last question before I'm off for a few days. It's one I asked twice earlier; if you'd give it your best shot, I'd appreciate it.
If it were demonstrated to you that you have free will, would you believe it is true?
Please take this as a hypothetical: assume that it were demonstrated to your satisfaction, whatever requirements that entails. Then, would you believe it?
Thank you again, Harley. It truly is wonderful to have intelligent, thoughtful and courteous folks with whom to debate these issues on here.
God bless...
Did God create you and me with a desire to disobey?
All men are fallen, something RCs forget.
You embrace perverted sects with a perverted Gospel.
Calvin never came up with the term "Total Deprivation" or Total Depravity that I'm aware of. Total Depravity is simply a term that states Calvin's principle that man is unable to initiate the calling of God to salvation. God must initiate the calling. The reason we beleive is simply because man's heart is constantly inclined to do evil things as we see from Genesis 6:5 (and many other verses). It will never seek God.
Now I understand the Catholics' position that the sanctifying "Grace of Baptism" erases original sin and turns a man back towards God. But how is man initially to be turned back to God if he's never been baptized into the "Grace of Baptism"? And without this initialization, he will never have his original sin erased.
Something always has to happen prior to man ever doing anything. And I have yet to hear one Christian tell me that God did not saved them. In testimony after testimony I constantly hear, "I was doing (fill in the blank) and then God (fill in the blank)". Deep down, in a Christian heart, they know the truth that without God they would never have been drawn to Him.
Not at all. I believe the nation of Israel is an illustration to the church of how corrupt we are-even if choosen by God. As far back as Moses, God told the people of Israel (His choosen) that they would end up worshipping false gods and sacrificing their children on the burning fires of Molech. HEY! Sure enough; that's is eactly what happened. It should be a warning to us Christians (and Paul tells us not to get too big headed).
But doing nothing is not an option.
No one is saying to do nothing. Our love compels us to serve God and to follow His commands. It just that we must recognize why we are driven by this. It is not because of us but because of God.
I’m rushing to get ready for a trip and don’t have time to give your questions the time they deserve; but I wanted to let you know I appreciate the discussion and your courteous posts.
thanks and God bless..
You give every evidence of not understanding Calvinism or much of Christianity.
“Study to show thyself approved.”
Have a safe trip and Happy Easter.
Amen!
God loves us not for what we do for Him, but for what He has done for us.
As Spurgeon wrote, God sees His Son’s spouse in us.
Not at all. I believe the nation of Israel is an illustration to the church of how corrupt we are-even if choosen by God. As far back as Moses, God told the people of Israel (His choosen) that they would end up worshipping false gods and sacrificing their children on the burning fires of Molech. HEY! Sure enough; that's is eactly what happened. It should be a warning to us Christians (and Paul tells us not to get too big headed).
Interesting. Indeed, all the NT (not just Paul) tells us not to get too big headed. As a side note, do you believe that the Gospels are not meant for Christians, as some do?
But I would be interested as well to find out if you believe that Israel is God's chosen people, special to Him and where you think that they fit in with Christianity?
But doing nothing is not an option.
No one is saying to do nothing. Our love compels us to serve God and to follow His commands. It just that we must recognize why we are driven by this. It is not because of us but because of God.
Do you see 'compelling' as a combination of God's Grace influencing us, and our willing cooperation because of that influence, or as an overwhelming involuntary compulsion?
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