Posted on 01/06/2013 3:56:49 PM PST by NYer
Bl. John Henry Newman said it best: “To be deep in history is to cease to be Protestant.” History paints an overwhelming picture of St. Peter’s apostolic ministry in Rome and this is confirmed by a multitude of different sources within the Early Church. Catholic Encyclopedia states, “In opposition to this distinct and unanimous testimony of early Christendom, some few Protestant historians have attempted in recent times to set aside the residence and death of Peter at Rome as legendary. These attempts have resulted in complete failure.” Protestantism as a whole seeks to divorce Christianity from history by rending Gospel message out of its historical context as captured by our Early Church Fathers. One such target of these heresies is to devalue St. Peter and to twist the authority of Rome into a historical mishap within Christianity. To wit, the belief has as its end the ultimate end of all Catholic and Protestant dialogue – who has authority in Christianity?
Why is it important to defend the tradition of St. Peter and Rome?
The importance of establishing St. Peter’s ministry in Rome may be boiled down to authority and more specifically the historic existence and continuance of the Office of Vicar held by St. Peter. To understand why St. Peter was important and what authority was given to him by Christ SPL has composed two lists – 10 Biblical Reasons Christ Founded the Papacy and 13 Reasons St. Peter Was the Prince of the Apostles.
The rest of the list is cited from the Catholic Encyclopedia on St. Peter and represents only a small fraction of the evidence set therein.
It is an indisputably established historical fact that St. Peter laboured in Rome during the last portion of his life, and there ended his earthly course by martyrdom. As to the duration of his Apostolic activity in the Roman capital, the continuity or otherwise of his residence there, the details and success of his labours, and the chronology of his arrival and death, all these questions are uncertain, and can be solved only on hypotheses more or less well-founded. The essential fact is that Peter died at Rome: this constitutes the historical foundation of the claim of the Bishops of Rome to the Apostolic Primacy of Peter.
St. Peter’s residence and death in Rome are established beyond contention as historical facts by a series of distinct testimonies extending from the end of the first to the end of the second centuries, and issuing from several lands.
That the manner, and therefore the place of his death, must have been known in widely extended Christian circles at the end of the first century is clear from the remark introduced into the Gospel of St. John concerning Christ’s prophecy that Peter was bound to Him and would be led whither he would not — “And this he said, signifying by what death he should glorify God” (John 21:18-19, see above). Such a remark presupposes in the readers of the Fourth Gospel a knowledge of the death of Peter.
St. Peter’s First Epistle was written almost undoubtedly from Rome, since the salutation at the end reads: “The church that is in Babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you: and so doth my son Mark” (5:13). Babylon must here be identified with the Roman capital; since Babylon on the Euphrates, which lay in ruins, or New Babylon (Seleucia) on the Tigris, or the Egyptian Babylon near Memphis, or Jerusalem cannot be meant, the reference must be to Rome, the only city which is called Babylon elsewhere in ancient Christian literature (Revelation 17:5; 18:10; “Oracula Sibyl.”, V, verses 143 and 159, ed. Geffcken, Leipzig, 1902, 111).
From Bishop Papias of Hierapolis and Clement of Alexandria, who both appeal to the testimony of the old presbyters (i.e., the disciples of the Apostles), we learn that Mark wrote his Gospel in Rome at the request of the Roman Christians, who desired a written memorial of the doctrine preached to them by St. Peter and his disciples (Eusebius, Church History II.15, 3.40, 6.14); this is confirmed by Irenaeus (Against Heresies 3.1). In connection with this information concerning the Gospel of St. Mark, Eusebius, relying perhaps on an earlier source, says that Peter described Rome figuratively as Babylon in his First Epistle.
Another testimony concerning the martyrdom of Peter and Paul is supplied by Clement of Rome in his Epistle to the Corinthians (written about A.D. 95-97), wherein he says (chapter 5):
“Through zeal and cunning the greatest and most righteous supports [of the Church] have suffered persecution and been warred to death. Let us place before our eyes the good Apostles — St. Peter, who in consequence of unjust zeal, suffered not one or two, but numerous miseries, and, having thus given testimony (martyresas), has entered the merited place of glory”.
He then mentions Paul and a number of elect, who were assembled with the others and suffered martyrdom “among us” (en hemin, i.e., among the Romans, the meaning that the expression also bears in chapter 4). He is speaking undoubtedly, as the whole passage proves, of the Neronian persecution, and thus refers the martyrdom of Peter and Paul to that epoch.
In his letter written at the beginning of the second century (before 117), while being brought to Rome for martyrdom, the venerable Bishop Ignatius of Antioch endeavours by every means to restrain the Roman Christians from striving for his pardon, remarking: “I issue you no commands, like Peter and Paul: they were Apostles, while I am but a captive” (Epistle to the Romans 4). The meaning of this remark must be that the two Apostles laboured personally in Rome, and with Apostolic authority preached the Gospel there.
Bishop Dionysius of Corinth, in his letter to the Roman Church in the time of Pope Soter (165-74), says:
“You have therefore by your urgent exhortation bound close together the sowing of Peter and Paul at Rome and Corinth. For both planted the seed of the Gospel also in Corinth, and together instructed us, just as they likewise taught in the same place in Italy and at the same time suffered martyrdom” (in Eusebius, Church History II.25).
Irenaeus of Lyons, a native of Asia Minor and a disciple of Polycarp of Smyrna (a disciple of St. John), passed a considerable time in Rome shortly after the middle of the second century, and then proceeded to Lyons, where he became bishop in 177; he described the Roman Church as the most prominent and chief preserver of the Apostolic tradition, as “the greatest and most ancient church, known by all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious Apostles, Peter and Paul” (Against Heresies 3.3; cf. 3.1). He thus makes use of the universally known and recognized fact of the Apostolic activity of Peter and Paul in Rome, to find therein a proof from tradition against the heretics.
In his “Hypotyposes” (Eusebius, Church History IV.14), Clement of Alexandria, teacher in the catechetical school of that city from about 190, says on the strength of the tradition of the presbyters: “After Peter had announced the Word of God in Rome and preached the Gospel in the spirit of God, the multitude of hearers requested Mark, who had long accompanied Peter on all his journeys, to write down what the Apostles had preached to them” (see above).
Like Irenaeus, Tertullian appeals, in his writings against heretics, to the proof afforded by the Apostolic labours of Peter and Paul in Rome of the truth of ecclesiastical tradition. In De Præscriptione 36, he says:
“If thou art near Italy, thou hast Rome where authority is ever within reach. How fortunate is this Church for which the Apostles have poured out their whole teaching with their blood, where Peter has emulated the Passion of the Lord, where Paul was crowned with the death of John.”
In Scorpiace 15, he also speaks of Peter’s crucifixion. “The budding faith Nero first made bloody in Rome. There Peter was girded by another, since he was bound to the cross”. As an illustration that it was immaterial with what water baptism is administered, he states in his book (On Baptism 5) that there is “no difference between that with which John baptized in the Jordan and that with which Peter baptized in the Tiber”; and against Marcion he appeals to the testimony of the Roman Christians, “to whom Peter and Paul have bequeathed the Gospel sealed with their blood” (Against Marcion 4.5).
The Roman, Caius, who lived in Rome in the time of Pope Zephyrinus (198-217), wrote in his “Dialogue with Proclus” (in Eusebius, Church History II.25) directed against the Montanists: “But I can show the trophies of the Apostles. If you care to go to the Vatican or to the road to Ostia, thou shalt find the trophies of those who have founded this Church”.
By the trophies (tropaia) Eusebius understands the graves of the Apostles, but his view is opposed by modern investigators who believe that the place of execution is meant. For our purpose it is immaterial which opinion is correct, as the testimony retains its full value in either case. At any rate the place of execution and burial of both were close together; St. Peter, who was executed on the Vatican, received also his burial there. Eusebius also refers to “the inscription of the names of Peter and Paul, which have been preserved to the present day on the burial-places there” (i.e. at Rome).
There thus existed in Rome an ancient epigraphic memorial commemorating the death of the Apostles. The obscure notice in the Muratorian Fragment (“Lucas optime theofile conprindit quia sub praesentia eius singula gerebantur sicuti et semote passionem petri evidenter declarat”, ed. Preuschen, Tübingen, 1910, p. 29) also presupposes an ancient definite tradition concerning Peter’s death in Rome.
The apocryphal Acts of St. Peter and the Acts of Sts. Peter and Paul likewise belong to the series of testimonies of the death of the two Apostles in Rome.
I’m not a crowd follower either.
LOL!!
Love it.
We’re all being darned....
Obama also said he was against gay marriage when he was wanting to get elected. Now he says he’s for it. The evil uses devious ways to confuse and make themselves look legitimate. Scripture says they will deceive to the point that “even the very elect” could be deceived. So yes, Satan will make it look like he is doing good to deceive.
It's not I who is being decieved or making the mistake.
Matthew 7:21-23 21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’
And someone would believe what a lying demon would tell them?
There's foolishness.
We had one who was trying that but has since left for what seemed to be frustration and not being able to control the outrage.
1 John 4:4 Little children, you are from God and have overcome them, for he who is in you is greater than he who is in the world.
Because as born again believers in Christ, we have the Holy Spirit living with in us.
Which contradicts Scripture which says...
Romans 3:21-26 21 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— 22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. 26 It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
Scripture nowhere says that Mary was conceived or created sinless. Not one place.
They don’t even see how blasphemous that “sinless Mary” concept is.
And He will turn to them and say, "I never knew you, depart from me you who work iniquity!".
"But!", they will exclaim, "We did everything we thought you said we should do to deserve to make it to heaven. We were good, we weren't sinners!".
And he will say, "I said "believe on me, receive my gift of eternal life by faith and let go of thinking you have to earn it or deserve it. You can never deserve it which is why I gave you a gift!". "I died in your place, I suffered for your sins because you could not pay for them and be with me in heaven." "You have rejected my gift and thought you could boast of your good works and goodness, but you are naked and destitute, clothed in the dirty rags of your own righteousness instead of the snow-white robes of righteousness I give you."
And they will shake their fists and gnash their teeth at Him and probably their leaders with them who lied to them, as well, as they trod through the broad path to destruction with the rest of humanity that rejected the truth.
Someone asked why we "bother" to have these discussions when it seems nobody hears us. I do it because I sense God leading me to speak the truth of the gospel just as someone shared it with me forty-odd years ago and changed my life for eternity. We never will know who just may be reading here but I think, one day, we WILL know because maybe that person will come up to us in heaven and say, "You planted a seed in my heart." or, "You watered a seed someone planted in my heart." and their life was forever changed. I cannot let such an opportunity to share the gospel go by. I'm not trying to "steal" souls from a church nor am I drumming up membership roles for "my" church. I'm doing what Jesus commanded us all to do and that is to "go into all the world and preach the gospel." I want to obey him and bring him glory for the wonderful things he has done for me. To Him alone goes all the glory and honor and praise!
If Satan can get people to follow anyone but Christ, what's it to him if he gets people to live useful and productive lives.
I'm sure Satan would rather have us suffer in this life, but if he can ensure a soul in hell for eternity, I wouldn't be the least bit surprised to give them all the money, power, and position this world craves.
What does it profit for a man to gain the whole world and lose his soul?
Additionally, Satan can appear as an angel of light. All those people, and this isn't just Catholic, but many Pentecostals as well, are gullible and naive to the endangering of their souls by believing that everyone or everything who says it's from God really is.
2 Corinthians 11:13-15 13 For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. 15 So it is no surprise if his servants, also, disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds.
Apparitions which direct attention from Jesus are demons.
I look forward to meeting you both in person, if not in this life then in the next one!
That needs repeated every time a Catholic brings up one of those “visions” they are so proud of. As seen they honestly think that if something appears good it is. How naïve! That’s what not knowing what scripture says will lead to.
Likewise, but likely it will be in the next life.
Church Fathers and scripture?
I see a lot from your church fathers, and using the typology (is that how it is spelled typo logy?) to try to form the scriptures to mesh with the doctrine.
I saw no scriptures that could be clearly proving any of the paranormal attributes given to Mary.
CB, it's amazing what people will believe.
And the semantic gymnastics they go through to “prove” it.
What about the ones that people see that the Catholic church does not sanction as being really Mary. Who is it if it is not Mary, and what is the origin of those?
Are they from God?
Like the one on a tree in Watsonville, CA a couple of decades ago?
CB..."That’s what not knowing what scripture says will lead to."
I'm going to paste here something I posted a couple of weeks back on another thread because I feel it's germane to the issue here.
"Jesus prayed that the Father would sanctify us by the truth then said "thy word is truth" and since that same word "is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart" it won't,to a heart that's desperately wicked and deceitfull,be pleasant.
Better to be busy doing what heart tells us is the Lord's work than confront that sword.It is our own deceitfull heart that simply will not let us believe what God has freely given us.It's just simply too good to be true and therefore can't be...(what an affront to Jesus sacrifice!)and then,like Martha,it's straight back to worries and concerns.
Knowing that you have life and that it was paid for with a terrible price,showing us just what lengths God would go to to redeem us and just how much He loved us and that it is ALL on someone else's account,namely, His ONLY begotten Son, is like a bomb going off in the human heart.It paralizes the accuser,not that he'll stop trying but no way is he gonna get much of a feed here anymore,let alone devour anything. It is that fact alone,that we have life in His name,that will quiet our heart,once it sinks in,once and for all! Once we believe that in our heart we will trully be released from bondage to slavery,trully be free and trully cease from our own works.Then that same accuser will be in the dirt under our feet."
Conversely if we don't do the "work of God" there will be no freedom,no deliverance from bondage to slavery,no transforming by the renewing of our minds to conform to the image of God's own Son and the devil will have a field day helping us to endlessly list our own shortcomings and keeping us blind to God's great gift.Not only does it keep us slaves to our own wicked hearts but it is a terrible affront to what God has done for us!
So you are saying the power of Holy Spirit can't cast out demons but Mary can.
The Jesus isn't enough crowd, now dismissed the Holy Spirit living with us. Both replaced by Mary.
Is that the new low for catholicsm before the flames touch them?
He wants you to hear and obey His Word. His Word is His Will.
Somehow that doesn't seem right.
Oh btw, satan knows scripture quite well.
The mistake is not understanding that satan will say many true things in order to get people to follow these "appearances" of Mary, but she is not referred to as Mary, but Our Lady of fillintheblanks.
It's one of satans jobs to get people to look at Mary, 'cause when they are doing that they are not looking at Jesus.
There is a beautiful song written in 1922 titled "Turn Your Eyes Upon Jesus"
Hopefully the 120,000 people that go to Laus every year will heed the call of Jesus instead of Mary.
That is my prayer.
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