Jesus not found outside the Church, Pope preaches

Catholic News Agency ^ | 04/23/13 | Estefania Aguirre

[FatherofFive]

If you can not find Jesus outside of a church how can you be a Christian..

By following what Christ taught.

“And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.” Mat 6:18

Here Christ says he has established a Church and his Church will not be destroyed.

“But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.” 1Tim 3:15

Here the Church is established as the pillar and foundation of truth. There cannot be multiple ‘Truths’ so there cannot be multiple Churches.

[Brian Kopp DPM]

I don't know.

Therefore he who would find Christ must first find the Church. How should we know where Christ and his faith were, if we did not know where his believers are? And he who would know anything of Christ must not trust himself nor build a bridge to heaven by his own reason; but he must go to the Church, attend and ask her. Now the Church is not wood and stone, but the company of believing people; one must hold to them, and see how they believe, live and teach; they surely have Christ in their midst. For outside of the Christian church there is no truth, no Christ, no salvation.

-Martin luther: Sermon for the Early Christmas Service; Luke 2:15-20 (1521-1522). Luther's Works, American Ed., Hans J. Hillerbrand, Helmut T. Lehmann ed., Philadelphia, Concordia Publishing House/Fortress Press, 1974, ISBN 0-8006-0352-4 (Sermons II), vol. 52:39-40

[FoxPro]

Are we going to fight the reformation here all over again?

[Mrs. Don-o]

I think this small-"c" non-Catholic Christian has the right idea:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/3011464/posts?page=18#18

If I were a betting person, I'd bet my right arm up to the shoulder on this. (Thank you, Anitius!)

[HangnJudge]

For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Cephas, and then to the Twelve. After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born.

— 1 Cor. 15:3–8, NIV

One could make a case that Paul (Saul) was brought to Christ through a revelatory act, as “Abnormally Born”
Initially quite separate from the Church

It is not my place to limit God, as He can do all things

[Just mythoughts]

Nope. One must be able and willing to read. That's all. Building straw men will not help. Generally the builders of straw men don't want the truth, they want to win the exchange. So I don't engage with them. What Catholics understand by "Church" and "the Church" and how they view the necessity of Baptism has been so often laid out on FR that the kindest possible explanation for the arguments offered against what Pope Francis said is culpable negligence. Another freeper has put up a couple of threads arguing against basic dogma of Catholicism but has done so without the lust for specious victory which is too often seen here. There's no need and no profit in the kind of argumentative response this thread already shows. "Secret Catholic decoder ring?" Really

Same old on this hand or that. Not one ounce of Christian meat in the above words, words, words. Either this man said what he said, and meant what he said or somebody needs to get him a sermon writer. He gave not one shred of authority WRITTEN by the God elected chosen 'holy prophets', (little Peter lingo there for you)...

Before one jot or tittle of the so called New Testament got placed on plant fiber or animal skins, Christ said Mark 13:23 But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things....

And Peter got that set of 'keys', not all this evolution and addition of traditions of men.

[GGpaX4DumpedTea]

BubbaBasher wrote, “Jesus gave himself to us before there was a church.”

And you replied to him...”But that is not what Scripture says:” and then quoted a passage that is not in Matthew 6:18, but in Mathew 16:18...

“And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.” Mat 6:18

You, FatherofFive, as so many others are prone to do, are quick to take a verse out of context. Please read it again in context of what Scripture says in Matthew 16...

When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am? And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets. He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.
(Matthew 16:13-20 KJV)

Peter is not, nor ever will be the rock upon which Jesus built the church...He, Jesus, the Son of the Living God, is that ROCK. The ‘keys’ were given to each of His disciples who were with Him when He spoke these words. They are given to us, the church, the Body of Christ, and this was completed on the Day of Pentacost, when the Holy Spirit descended to gather the firstfruits of the Body, the Bride, of Christ.

I would also remind all reading this that the name ‘Peter’ means stone, or piece of a rock, not ‘rock’.

[bunkerhill7]

Ok bible scholars: What does this mean then?

Scripture: Mark 9:38-41
38 John said to him, “Teacher, we saw a man casting out demons in your name, and we forbade him, because he was not following us.” 39 But Jesus said, “Do not forbid him; for no one who does a mighty work in my name will be able soon after to speak evil of me. 40 For he that is not against us is for us. 41 For truly, I say to you, whoever gives you a cup of water to drink because you bear the name of Christ, will by no means lose his reward.

[Mrs. Don-o]

Thank you, CAConservative, for stating that you would need more context before making a judgment. This is the mark of a thinker, not just a reactor. I respect that.

And why? Because the Pope is certainly to be interpreted in the light of the teachings of his own Church, which set forth that the "Church" extends to other Christians, i.e. is not confined to the paid-up pewsitters of Roman Catholic parishes. What does the Catholic Church say about our fellow Christians? (from the Catechism):

"For there are many [other Christians] who honor Sacred Scripture, taking it as a norm of belief and a pattern of life, and who show a sincere zeal. They lovingly believe in God the Father Almighty and in Christ, the Son of God and Saviour.

They are consecrated by baptism, in which they are united with Christ. They also recognize and accept other sacraments within their own Churches or ecclesiastical communities...

They also share with us in prayer and other spiritual benefits. Likewise we can say that in some real way they are joined with us in the Holy Spirit, for to them too He gives His gifts and graces whereby He is operative among them with His sanctifying power.

[EricT.]

Aw, geez. Just when I was starting to warm up to him, he says something ridiculous like this.

I’ve known too many solid disciples of Jesus who didn’t need The Church™ to come to know and follow our Lord.

I guess he also thinks that people in places like China and Iran who are secret believers are not Christians, either.

[Mad Dawg]

So you know the answer. Why do you ask?

[St_Thomas_Aquinas]

—— The Pope is wrong. ——

“If he will not listen to the Church, treat him as a pagan or tax collector.” — Jesus

I believe that the pope is stating the Catholic position to Catholics, as it is opposed to “Bible alone” Protestantism.

I’ve worked along with many non-Christians who are obviously devoted to Christ, by the grace of God.

But Jesus established a Church that the gates of hell will not prevail against. Yes, non-Catholic Christians can be saved, but it is through the mediation of Christ’s atonement which is made present to us through His Church.

[GGpaX4DumpedTea]

Yes, Mr Just...breathtaking and inspiring is what I see in your rebuttal to the hypocracy in the Title and subject matter of this thread. Thank you.

Until the catholic hierarchy and the catholic laity are willing to address and condemn the EVIL in 'St Biden' and all of the other 'professing' catholics, their words and the words of the church hierachy, including the words of Pappa Franco are as Paul described words lacking love, in 1 Corinthians 13...

"I may speak in the languages of humans and of angels. But if I don't have love, I am a loud gong or a clashing cymbal. I may have the gift to speak what God has revealed, and I may understand all mysteries and have all knowledge. I may even have enough faith to move mountains. But if I don't have love, I am nothing. I may even give away all that I have and give up my body to be burned. But if I don't have love, none of these things will help me. Love is patient. Love is kind. Love isn't jealous. It doesn't sing its own praises. It isn't arrogant. It isn't rude. It doesn't think about itself. It isn't irritable. It doesn't keep track of wrongs. It isn't happy when injustice is done, but it is happy with the truth. Love never stops being patient, never stops believing, never stops hoping, never gives up. Love never comes to an end." (1 Corinthians 13:1-8 GW)

[Salvation]

Preaching to the world. Trying to save the world.

But some people’s ears will be blocked just like the Pharisee’s blocked their ears at Stephen’s preaching.

May God bring them home.

[cuban leaf]

“But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.” 1Tim 3:15

The house of God is the bodies of the believers. According to His Word, my body is His dwelling place.

[Salvation]

So have you just been installed as Pope?

I think he has a lot more learning than any of us — most of all — me.

[Mad Dawg]

It's probably just a tradition of men or a vain philosophy, but where I come from if we're going to talk about something we often start by trying to get clear on what it is we're talking about.

Here the question would be what do we mean by "Church" and by "The Church."

[GBA]

"Church" is defined a few different ways, so it's unclear what the Pope is saying.

I might assume he is speaking only of the Catholic church, then I would not agree.

That church has driven several of my friends and their families away from religion, the Bible and from God, thanks to the actions, words and sentiments of priests representing the Catholic church and themselves, but perhaps not representing the Word of God.

I pray that they were not denied their place in the afterlife as a result of the Church's representatives.

I also pray that the pedophile priests and the homosexual priests have also not cost others their afterlife due to their having been preyed upon by those deviants representing the Church, but not removed by the Church.

First, do no harm...

[tomkat]

Might wanna rethink that, Frank.

[Salvation]

Jesus established the Catholic Church on the Apostles as he breathed on them on Sunday monring when he was cooking breakfast for them.

“Receive the Holy Spirit, whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.”

Surely that is in your Bible too? Correct?