Posted on 08/31/2013 3:38:44 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
Full interview (roughly one hour) with former Roman Catholic priests Richard Bennett (website: http://www.BEREANBEACON.ORG) & Bartholomew Brewer, Ph.D, author of "Pilgrimage from Rome - A Testimony" (website: http://www.MTC.COM) and former nun Rocio Zwirner give glory to God for their exodus from the Roman Catholic Church & into the glorious grace of the saving Gospel of Jesus Christ. (Description from youtube)
Actually, Aaron already tried that when he announced that they would feast to the LORD in front of the golden calf.
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No, Alamo-Girl, worshiping a golden calf is NOT by any stretch using gold for a holy purpose. (Or do you think it is?)
Rather, transforming that gold from it's pagan purpose (a golden calf) into a holy thing used for a holy purpose, would honestly, truthfully, be more like the following.
Using the gold for THIS holy purpose:
"They shall make an ark of acacia wood; two cubits and a half shall be its length, a cubit and a half its breadth, and a cubit and a half its height. And you shall overlay it with pure gold, within and without shall you overlay it, and you shall make upon it a molding of gold round about. And you shall cast four rings of gold for it and put them on its four feet, two rings on the one side of it, and two rings on the other side of it. You shall make poles of acacia wood, and overlay them with gold." Exodus 25:10-13
Or using the gold for THIS holy purpose:
"Then you shall make a mercy seat of pure gold; two cubits and a half shall be its length, and a cubit and a half its breadth. And you shall make two cherubim of gold; of hammered work shall you make them, on the two ends of the mercy seat." Exodus 25:17-18
Or using the gold for THIS holy purpose:
"And you shall make a table of acacia wood; two cubits shall be its length, a cubit its breadth, and a cubit and a half its height. You shall overlay it with pure gold, and make a molding of gold around it. And you shall make around it a frame a handbreadth wide, and a molding of gold around the frame. And you shall make for it four rings of gold, and fasten the rings to the four corners at its four legs. Close to the frame the rings shall lie, as holders for the poles to carry the table. You shall make the poles of acacia wood, and overlay them with gold, and the table shall be carried with these. And you shall make its plates and dishes for incense, and its flagons and bowls with which to pour libations; of pure gold you shall make them. And you shall set the bread of the Presence on the table before me always." Exodus 25:23-30
Or using the gold for THIS holy purpose:
"And you shall make a lampstand of pure gold. The base and the shaft of the lampstand shall be made of hammered work; its cups, its capitals, and its flowers shall be of one piece with it; and there shall be six branches going out of its sides, three branches of the lampstand out of one side of it and three branches of the lampstand out of the other side of it; three cups made like almonds, each with capital and flower, on one branch, and three cups made like almonds, each with capital and flower, on the other branch—so for the six branches going out of the lampstand; and on the lampstand itself four cups made like almonds, with their capitals and flowers, and a capital of one piece with it under each pair of the six branches going out from the lampstand. Their capitals and their branches shall be of one piece with it, the whole of it one piece of hammered work of pure gold. And you shall make the seven lamps for it; and the lamps shall be set up so as to give light upon the space in front of it. Its snuffers and their trays shall be of pure gold. Of a talent of pure gold shall it be made, with all these utensils. And see that you make them after the pattern for them, which is being shown you on the mountain." Exodus 25:31-408
(etc., etc., etc.)
Do you understand the difference?
Show from scripture where God said to transform a pagan thing and use it to serve Him. Use specific book, chapter and verse please.
Again, with the relevant part emphasized again:
And Aaron said unto them, Break off the golden earrings, which [are] in the ears of your wives, of your sons, and of your daughters, and bring [them] unto me. And all the people brake off the golden earrings which [were] in their ears, and brought [them] unto Aaron. And he received [them] at their hand, and fashioned it with a graving tool, after he had made it a molten calf: and they said, These [be] thy gods, O Israel, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.
And when Aaron saw [it], he built an altar before it; and Aaron made proclamation, and said, To morrow [is] a feast to the LORD. - Exodus 32:1-5
To God be the glory, not man, never man.
I see a total changing of the subject to somehow confuse the issue. Let’s look again at what the RCC says.
“When we give or receive Christmas gifts; or hang green wreaths in our homes and churches, how many of us know that we are probably observing pagan customs...the god, Woden, in Norse Mythology, descends upon the earth yearly between December 25th and January 6th to bless mankind...But pagan though they be, they are beautiful customs. They help inspire us with the spirit of 'good will to men', even as the sublime service of our Church reminds us of the ‘peace on earth’ which the babe of Bethlehem came to bestow” (Externals of the Catholic Church, 140).
It admits that they are pagan and that the RCC has taken them from the pagans to use in serving God. That is in direct opposition to what God said.
Deuteronomy 12:30 Take heed to thyself that thou be not snared by following them, after that they be destroyed from before thee; and that thou enquire not after their gods, saying, How did these nations serve their gods? even so will I do likewise. 31 Thou shalt not do so unto the LORD thy God
No they don’t. It’s because they don’t follow Christ, they follow the RCC.
Welcome to Catholic obfuscation. It’s something they rely on frequently.
☺
So you think that what Aaron was doing there was using a "holy thing for a holy purpose"?
That's not what I would ever call it.
St. Paul, inspired by the Holy Spirit, wrote this to the Romans about their formerly pagan minds:
Do not be conformed to this world but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that you may prove what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect. Romans 12:2Now, CynicalBear, you show a text where God said NOT to transform a pagan thing and use it to serve him. Use specific book, chapter and verse please.
(By the way, CynicalBear, do you really believe that God did not tell people to use "writing" to "write things" that were later included in the Bible, even though "writing" was first used by pagans?)
I was responding specifically to your earlier remark, when you said:
In the example, Aaron evidently did not see any problem letting the people have their golden calf idol as long as they were feasting to the Lord in front of it.
In other words, surely it would be ok with the Lord to indulge the people's pagan customs or desires as long as they were giving Him respect also - pagan stuff but "holy" intent.
Big mistake on Aaron's part. In fact, God wanted to kill them all and make a new nation out of Moses.
And Aaron said unto them, Break off the golden earrings, which [are] in the ears of your wives, of your sons, and of your daughters, and bring [them] unto me. And all the people brake off the golden earrings which [were] in their ears, and brought [them] unto Aaron. And he received [them] at their hand, and fashioned it with a graving tool, after he had made it a molten calf: and they said, These [be] thy gods, O Israel, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.
And when Aaron saw [it], he built an altar before it; and Aaron made proclamation, and said, To morrow [is] a feast to the LORD. - Exodus 32:1-5
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So your belief is that we should not hang wreaths up, or celebrate Christmas in a jovial way, and with good cheer like that?
(Is your first name Ebenezer?)
You should know, of course, that the book you sited ("Externals of the Catholic Church") is NOT a book containing the teachings and doctrines of the Catholic Church. If you want to discuss the teachings and beliefs and doctrines of the Catholic Church, you should read the official "Catechism of the Catholic Church", which plainly spells out those teachings, and you should discuss those teachings, not the silly fluff you quoted.
If you continue to quote from sources which do NOT contain the official teachings of the Catholic Church, I may have to start quoting from other prominent Protestants to you, such as the Rev. Jeremiah Wright, or the Rev. Jim Jones, or Rev. Jesse Jackson, or Rev. Al Sharpton, or President B. Obama, or Bill and Hilary Clinton, ...
That's right. TRANSFORM the mind, not reform it.
We are born again as new creatures in Christ. We now have a new mind, the mind of Christ, not our old mind reformed.
1 Corinthians 2:16 “For who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ.
2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.
Galatians 2:19-20 For through the law I died to the law, so that I might live to God. I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.
Trying to use a golden calf to worship the Lord is NOT using gold for a holy purpose, no matter how many times you write it. That is using gold for an unholy purpose.
The quotes I gave you from Exodus 25 plainly show you what some holy uses of gold would be. Please read those again so that you will see what I mean.
Goodnight.
As my final remark, Aaron's "feasting to the Lord" was a holy intent. But that did not excuse the presence of the molten calf. That the calf was made of gold is completely irrelevant.
“And only those usually referred to as “cult” operate that way, as no Protestant declares that he is infallible...”
I see plenty of Protestants here insisting that what isn’t true is true merely on their claims of correctly interpreting the scriptures. There is no substantiation from scripture. It is simply whatever the Protestant wants it to be. There was a Protestant once who insisted Mary was not at the foot of the cross. When I pointed out that John says otherwise in his gospel, the Protestant insisted he didn’t have to believe that because John is but one witness and scripture demands two for the sake of proof. That’s Protestantism - make it up and claim you got it from scripture.
“Sure, there are plenty who deny Peter was the rock referred to in Mt. 16:18, based on not only on scholarly analysis of Scripture, but of history, and in which we find Catholic scholar of substance concurring.”
No. First, there is no scriptural evidence that Peter is not the Rock. Only those who wish to deny the authority of the papacy deny that Peter is the Rock. There are no arguments from history that Peter is not the Rock. And about Catholic scholars denying Peter is the Rock - I would be happy to see the evidence of that as soon as you deal with the Protestants scholars about which I posted earlier. Something tells me I might never see anything about those Catholic scholars.
“Let me know when you want them, but RCs are not encouraged to enage in subjective examination to ascertain the truth,”
We are encouraged to make objective examinations. What would be the point of any subjective examinations since that could never rise above opinion?
“as they believe Rome’s version, and that (as said) the corporate entity that was the instrument of Divine revelation and steward of it, and inheritor of Divine promises of God’s presence and preservation, and having historical descent, is necessarily the infallible interpreter of it. But which is not the case.”
Actually it is the case. You keep proving it.
“CAn you REALLY not read?”
Oh, I can - and apparently much better than you can.
“DEAD people get raised.”
Their bodies are dead. Souls don’t die. Our real personhood is in our souls. The mortal body is temporary.
“EVERY one of your ‘saints’ died.”
Their bodies did. They continued to live on for their souls, all of our souls, are immortal. One would think you knew this just from reading Luke 23:39-43.
“Ergo; they WILL get raised - EXACTLY like the Scripture says!”
Their bodies will be raised and reunited with their very much still alive and glorified bodies.
“What if you ‘reject’ doing HIS ‘works’?”
You’re asking how someone can adhere to God and reject Him at the same time. You should know why that is contradictory.
“Then you don’t have to do them.”
Why would you reject God’s loving gift? Why would I not want what is offered in Romans 1:5 and 16:26?
“But Catholics say the man does some of it?”
Does God save men against their will?
“But Catholics insist that it is something we do and something we do that can get us “unsaved”?”
What is the penalty of sin?
“But Catholics say it’s really not really eternal?”
Really? Show me where that is said by Catholics?
“And Catholics surely must not believe this one.”
We do. And we also understand it. Wish I could say the same for some Protestants around here.
“Catholics keep telling us that lot’s of things can separated us telling the Holy Spirit who inspired those words that He got it wrong somehow.”
No, that’s not what any Catholic has ever said about the Holy Spirit, but you’ll probably keep saying it as if it were true. You won’t post any evidence for your claim either of course. Par for the course.
Yes, He did!
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