Questions for "Bible Christians" that they can't answer - Part 2

Catholic Convert ^ | October 27, 2013 | David Palm and Steve Ray

[NYer]

There are 38 questions + a few bonus questions. I have split them into two separate posts of 20 and 18 + bonus questions. In case you missed it, here is the link to Part 1. Are you ready?

21. Who in the Church had the authority to determine which books belonged in the New Testament canon and to make this decision binding on all Christians? If nobody has this authority, then can I remove or add books to the canon on my own authority?

22. Why do Protestant scholars recognize the early Church councils at Hippo and Carthage as the first instances in which the New Testament canon was officially ratified, but ignore the fact that those same councils ratified the Old Testament canon used by the Catholic Church today but abandoned by Protestants at the Reformation?

23. Why do Protestants follow postapostolic Jewish decisions on the boundaries of the Old Testament canon, rather than the decision of the Church founded by Jesus Christ?

24. How were the bishops at Hippo and Carthage able to determine the correct canon of Scripture, in spite of the fact that they believed all the distinctively Catholic doctrines such as the apostolic succession of bishops, the sacrifice of the Mass, Christ’s Real Presence in the Eucharist, baptismal regeneration, etc?

25. If Christianity is a “book religion,” how did it flourish during the first 1500 years of Church history when the vast majority of people were illiterate?

26. How could the Apostle Thomas establish the church in India that survives to this day (and is now in communion with the Catholic Church) without leaving them with one word of New Testament Scripture?

27. If sola Scriptura is so solid and biblically based, why has there never been a full treatise written in its defense since the phrase was coined in the Reformation?

28. If Jesus intended for Christianity to be exclusively a “religion of the book,” why did He wait 1400 years before showing somebody how to build a printing press?

29. If the early Church believed in sola Scriptura, why do the creeds of the early Church always say “we believe in the Holy Catholic Church,” and not “we believe in Holy Scripture”?

30. If the Bible is as clear as Martin Luther claimed, why was he the first one to interpret it the way he did and why was he frustrated at the end of his life that “there are now as many doctrines as there are heads”?

31. The time interval between the Resurrection and the establishment of the New Testament canon in AD 382 is roughly the same as the interval between the arrival of the Mayflower in America and the present day. Therefore, since the early Christians had no defined New Testament for almost four hundred years, how did they practice sola Scriptura?

32. If the Bible is the only foundation and basis of Christian truth, why does the Bible itself say that the Church is the pillar and foundation of truth (1 Tim. 3:15)?

33. Jesus said that the unity of Christians would be objective evidence to the world that He had been sent by God (John 17:20-23). How can the world see an invisible "unity" that exists only in the hearts of believers?

34. If the unity of Christians was meant to convince the world that Jesus was sent by God, what does the ever-increasing fragmentation of Protestantism say to the world?

35. Hebrews 13:17 says, "Obey your leaders and submit to their authority. They keep watch over you as men who must give an account. Obey them so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no advantage to you." What is the expiration date of this verse? When did it become okay not only to disobey the Church's leaders, but to rebel against them and set up rival churches?

36. The Koran explicitly claims divine inspiration, but the New Testament books do not. How do you know that the New Testament books are nevertheless inspired, but the Koran is not?

37. How does a Protestant know for sure what God thinks about moral issues such as abortion, masturbation, contraceptives, eugenics, euthanasia, etc.?

38. What is one to believe when one Protestant says infants should be baptized (e.g., Luther and Calvin) and another says it is wrong and unbiblical (e.g., Baptists and Evangelicals)?

A Few Bonus Questions

Where does the Bible . . .

. . . say God created the world/universe out of nothing?

. . . say salvation is attainable through faith alone?

. . . tell us how we know that the revelation of Jesus Christ ended with the death of the last Apostle?

. . . provide a list of the canonical books of the Old Testament?

. . . provide a list of the canonical books of the New Testament?

. . . explain the doctrine of the Trinity, or even use the word “Trinity”?

. . . tell us the name of the “beloved disciple”?

. . . inform us of the names of the authors of the Gospel of Matthew, Mark, Luke, or John?

. . . who wrote the Book of Acts?

. . . tell us the Holy Spirit is one of the three Persons of the Trinity?

. . . .tell us Jesus Christ was both fully God and fully man from the moment of conception (e.g. how do we know His Divinity wasn't infused later in His life?) and/or tells us Jesus Christ is One Person with two complete natures, human and Divine and not some other combination of the two natures (i.e., one or both being less than complete)?

. . . that the church should, or someday would be divided into competing and disagreeing denominations?

. . . that Protestants can have an invisible unity when Jesus expected a visible unity to be seen by the world (see John 17)?

. . . tell us Jesus Christ is of the same substance of Divinity as God the Father?

[Salvation]

"We are compelled to concede to the Papists
that they have the Word of God,
that we received it from them,
and that without them
we should have no knowledge of it at all."

~ Martin Luther

[narses]

Not fair. :)

+

[narses]

[Salvation]

LOL!

[narses]

That promise was given to Paul and the apostles. No one else.

Then why did the Apostles not codify the Canon of Scripture?

[Mr Rogers]

Seems like a lot of hatred for the scriptures! I guess my questions for the “Non-Bible Christian” would be:

Why do you fear the scriptures?

Why is it that reading the scriptures, in the vernacular, tends to cause folks to reject Catholicism in droves?

What makes you value the statements of a Pope over the Word of God?

Why do you distort the history of the canon & pretend the New Testament wasn’t in use long before any ‘councils’ gave it credence?

[narses]

“Your ancestors ate the manna in the desert, but they died;
this is the bread that comes down from heaven so that one may eat it and not die.

I am the living bread that came down from heaven; whoever eats this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give is my flesh for the life of the world.”
The Jews quarreled among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us (his) flesh to eat?”

Jesus said to them, “Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.
Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day.

For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink

Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him.
Just as the living Father sent me and I have life because of the Father, so also the one who feeds on me will have life because of me.

This is the bread that came down from heaven. Unlike your ancestors who ate and still died, whoever eats this bread will live forever.”

These things he said while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum
Then many of his disciples who were listening said, “This saying is hard; who can accept it?”

Since Jesus knew that his disciples were murmuring about this, he said to them, “Does this shock you?

What if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before?
It is the spirit that gives life, while the flesh is of no avail. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and life.

But there are some of you who do not believe.” Jesus knew from the beginning the ones who would not believe and the one who would betray him.
And he said, “For this reason I have told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by my Father.”

As a result of this, many (of) his disciples returned to their former way of life and no longer accompanied him

Jesus then said to the Twelve, “Do you also want to leave?”

Simon Peter answered him, “Master, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.

We have come to believe and are convinced that you are the Holy One of God.”
Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you twelve? Yet is not one of you a devil?”

He was referring to Judas, son of Simon the Iscariot; it was he who would betray him, one of the Twelve.” [John 6: 49-71]

[CynicalBear]

Thank you for posting that. I had just checked the Greek wording when I read his post and came to the same conclusion as the writer on that site. I always love confirmation.

[MayflowerMadam]

“let’s not forget Protestants burned people to death as well.”

Yup. Protestants under James I burned my ancestor at the stake in 1612. Infant baptism is not Biblical, so he refused to do it. Protestants (Anglican/Church of England, etc.) at that time held on to many Catholic tenets, one of which was infant baptism. My ancestor was Baptist; Baptists are not Protestants. Protestants sprung out of the Reformation; Baptists were pre-Reformation and before well... I’ll just leave it at that.

[MayflowerMadam]

“let’s not forget Protestants burned people to death as well.”

Yup. Protestants under James I burned my ancestor at the stake in 1612. Infant baptism is not Biblical, so he refused to do it. Protestants (Anglican/Church of England, etc.) at that time held on to many Catholic tenets, one of which was infant baptism. My ancestor was Baptist; Baptists are not Protestants. Protestants were the result of the Reformation; Baptists were pre-Reformation and before well... I’ll just leave it at that.

[Mr Rogers]

I’m sure you think your post has relevance, but I don’t see it. What is your point?

[metmom]

[CynicalBear]

>> In A.D. 195, Clement of Alexandria wrote, “Because of its divine institution for the propagation of man, the seed is not to be vainly ejaculated, nor is it to be damaged, nor is it to be wasted” (The Instructor of Children 2:10:91:2).<<

Well, there ya go! When Catholics say to abstain during the time a woman is fertile and only have sex when they are not they are sinning because they know that during that time the sperm is being wasted! That leaves the knowingly sinning. I’ll bet the RCC condemns those who knowingly sin also don’t they?

[CynicalBear]

Didn’t you hear? It’s in the part that doesn’t say it didn’t happen so they can say it did.

[daniel1212]

One of the problems also is there are answers that Catholics just don't like or won't accept. everything you offer them that disagrees with them they blow off as a non-answer as a default reaction. If the questions were asked with a genuine desire to know, with and in integrity, then there could be discussion.

In many of Rays arguments he should know better, while it is not as of his questions have not been responded to. See my responses to the first 20 here , and the rest here below.

`

Tuesday, October 04, 2011

Questions Steve Ray Thinks "Bible Chrisians" Can't Answer - Answered

Steve Ray seems to think that there are questions that we Bible Christians cannot answer. (Link to his post)

Not only can we answer them, we have answered them. For the most part, they are a bunch of loaded questions that are actually not that hard to unload and answer. The answers I provided below may not even be the only or best answers. Nevertheless, so as to bring to Mr. Ray's attention the answers that were provided over a year ago, the following provides an easy index of the responses.

Just click on the question for the answer. 

1. "Where did Jesus give instructions that the Christian faith should be based exclusively on a book?" 
2. "Other than the specific command to John to pen the Revelation, where did Jesus tell His apostles to write anything down and compile it into an authoritative book?" 
3. "Where in the New Testament do the apostles tell future generations that the Christian faith will be based solely on a book?" 
4. "some Protestants claim that Jesus condemned all oral tradition (e.g., Matt 15:3, 6; Mark 7:813). If so, why does He bind His listeners to oral tradition by telling them to obey the scribes and Pharisees when they “sit on Moses’ seat” (Matt 23:2)?" 
5. "Some Protestants claim that St. Paul condemned all oral tradition (Col 2:8). If so, why does he tell the Thessalonians to “stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter” (2 Thes 2:15) and praises the Corinthians because they “hold firmly to the traditions” (1 Cor 11:2)? (And why does the Protestant NIV change the word “tradition” to “teaching”?)" 
6. "If the authors of the New Testament believed in sola Scriptura, why did they sometimes draw on oral Tradition as authoritative and as God’s Word (Matt 2:23; 23:2; 1 Cor 10:4; 1 Pet 3:19; Jude 9, 14 15)?" 
7. "Where in the Bible is God’s Word restricted only to what is written down?" 
8. "How do we know who wrote the books that we call Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Acts, Hebrews, and 1, 2, and 3 John?" 
9. "On what authority, or on what principle, would we accept as Scripture books that we know were not written by one of the twelve apostles?" 
10. "Where in the Bible do we find an inspired and infallible list of books that should belong in the Bible? (e.g., Is the Bible’s Table of Contents inspired?)" 
11. "How do we know, from the Bible alone, that the individual books of the New Testament are inspired, even when they make no claim to be inspired?" 
12. "How do we know, from the Bible alone, that the letters of St. Paul, who wrote to first-century congregations and individuals, are meant to be read by us as Scripture 2000 years later?" 
13. "Where does the Bible claim to be the sole authority for Christians in matters of faith and morals?" 
14. "Most of the books of the New Testament were written to address very specific problems in the early Church, and none of them are a systematic presentation of Christian faith and theology. On what biblical basis do Protestants think that everything that the apostles taught is captured in the New Testament writings?" 
15. "If the books of the New Testament are “self-authenticating” through the ministry of the Holy Spirit to each individual, then why was there confusion in the early Church over which books were inspired, with some books being rejected by the majority?" 
16. "If the meaning of the Bible is so clear—so easily interpreted—and if the Holy Spirit leads every Christian to interpret it for themselves, then why are there over 33,000 Protestant denominations, and millions of individual Protestants, all interpreting the Bible differently?" 
17. "Who may authoritatively arbitrate between Christians who claim to be led by the Holy Spirit into mutually contradictory interpretations of the Bible?" 
18. "Since each Protestant must admit that his or her interpretation is fallible, how can any Protestant in good conscience call anything heresy or bind another Christian to a particular belief?" 
19. "Protestants usually claim that they all agree “on the important things.” Who is able to decide authoritatively what is important in the Christian faith and what is not?" 
20. "How did the early Church evangelize and overthrow the Roman Empire, survive and prosper almost 350 years, without knowing for sure which books belong in the canon of Scripture?" 
21. "Who in the Church had the authority to determine which books belonged in the New Testament canon and to make this decision binding on all Christians? If nobody has this authority, then can I remove or add books to the canon on my own authority?" 
22. "Why do Protestant scholars recognize the early Church councils at Hippo and Carthage as the first instances in which the New Testament canon was officially ratified, but ignore the fact that those same councils ratified the Old Testament canon used by the Catholic Church today but abandoned by Protestants at the Reformation?" 
23. "Why do Protestants follow postapostolic Jewish decisions on the boundaries of the Old Testament canon, rather than the decision of the Church founded by Jesus Christ?" 
24. "How were the bishops at Hippo and Carthage able to determine the correct canon of Scripture, in spite of the fact that they believed all the distinctively Catholic doctrines such as the apostolic succession of bishops, the sacrifice of the Mass, Christ’s Real Presence in the Eucharist, baptismal regeneration, etc?" 
25. "If Christianity is a “book religion,” how did it flourish during the first 1500 years of Church history when the vast majority of people were illiterate?" 
26. "How could the Apostle Thomas establish the church in India that survives to this day (and is now in communion with the Catholic Church) without leaving them with one word of New Testament Scripture?" 
27. "If sola Scriptura is so solid and biblically based, why has there never been a full treatise written in its defense since the phrase was coined in the Reformation?" 
28. "If Jesus intended for Christianity to be exclusively a “religion of the book,” why did He wait 1400 years before showing somebody how to build a printing press?" 
29. "If the early Church believed in sola Scriptura, why do the creeds of the early Church always say “we believe in the Holy Catholic Church,” and not “we believe in Holy Scripture”?" 
30. "If the Bible is as clear as Martin Luther claimed, why was he the first one to interpret it the way he did and why was he frustrated at the end of his life that “there are now as many doctrines as there are heads”?" 
31. "The time interval between the Resurrection and the establishment of the New Testament canon in AD 382 is roughly the same as the interval between the arrival of the Mayflower in America and the present day. Therefore, since the early Christians had no defined New Testament for almost four hundred years, how did they practice sola Scriptura?" 
32. "If the Bible is the only foundation and basis of Christian truth, why does the Bible itself say that the Church is the pillar and foundation of truth (1 Tim. 3:15)?" 
33. "Jesus said that the unity of Christians would be objective evidence to the world that He had been sent by God (John 17:20-23). How can the world see an invisible "unity" that exists only in the hearts of believers?" 
34. "If the unity of Christians was meant to convince the world that Jesus was sent by God, what does the ever-increasing fragmentation of Protestantism say to the world?" 
35. "Hebrews 13:17 says, "Obey your leaders and submit to their authority. They keep watch over you as men who must give an account. Obey them so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no advantage to you." What is the expiration date of this verse? When did it become okay not only to disobey the Church's leaders, but to rebel against them and set up rival churches?" 
36. "The Koran explicitly claims divine inspiration, but the New Testament books do not. How do you know that the New Testament books are nevertheless inspired, but the Koran is not?" 
37. "How does a Protestant know for sure what God thinks about moral issues such as abortion, masturbation, contraceptives, eugenics, euthanasia, etc.?" 
38. "What is one to believe when one Protestant says infants should be baptized (e.g., Luther and Calvin) and another says it is wrong and unbiblical (e.g., Baptists and Evangelicals)?" 
39. "Where does the Bible say God created the world/universe out of nothing?" 
40. "Where does the Bible say salvation is attainable through faith alone?" 
41. "Where does the Bible tell us how we know that the revelation of Jesus Christ ended with the death of the last Apostle?" 
42. "Where does the Bible provide a list of the canonical books of the Old Testament?" 
43. "Where does the Bible provide a list of the canonical books of the New Testament?" 
44. "Where does the Bible explain the doctrine of the Trinity, or even use the word “Trinity”?" 
45. "Where does the Bible tell us the name of the “beloved disciple”?" 
46. "Where does the Bible inform us of the names of the authors of the Gospel of Matthew, Mark, Luke, or John?" 
47. "Where does the Bible [tell us] who wrote the Book of Acts?" 
48. "Where does the Bible tell us the Holy Spirit is one of the three Persons of the Trinity?" 
49. "Where does the Bible tell us Jesus Christ was both fully God and fully man from the moment of conception (e.g. how do we know His Divinity wasn't infused later in His life?) and/or tells us Jesus Christ is One Person with two complete natures, human and Divine and not some other combination of the two natures (i.e., one or both being less than complete)?" 
50. "Where does the Bible that the church should, or someday would be divided into competing and disagreeing denominations?" 
51. "Where does the Bible that Protestants can have an invisible unity when Jesus expected a visible unity to be seen by the world (see John 17)?" 
52. "Where does the Bible tell us Jesus Christ is of the same substance of Divinity as God the Father?" 

Enjoy!

-TurretinFan

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Labels: Sola Scriptura, Steve Ray

Published by Turretinfan to the Glory of God, at 8:01 PM

[metmom]

Kind of ironic, isn’t it, when they are promoting Natural Family Planning?

Deliberating avoiding sex when they know the women can conceive and having sex when they know she can’t.

What’s the Catholic argument against contraception? Something about sex without procreation cheapens it?

This falls into the church sanctioned sin department.

[smvoice]

And also to you and yours:) Thank you for such a pleasant debate. It CAN be done!

Regards,

smvoice

[Springfield Reformer]

When you’ve been trained to a certain way of thinking all your life, it can be difficult to get into the shoes of another person and really understand what they are saying. But if one is secure in one’s own faith and relationship with God, that makes it easier to try to see where the other side is coming from, which is essential to get at the root of the conflict.

[metmom]

When Catholics don’t like the answer, they consider it not answered or a non-answer.

The only answer they will consider legitimate is one that they either agree with or one that falls in line with Catholic teaching.

[Viennacon]

When discussing Onan, you can take two different views.

A) God struck him down for his act

B) God struck him down because he disobeyed a command to father a child by his widowed sister-in-law

I find both to be reasonable interpretations.