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Is Prayer/Veneration/Worship to Mary Biblical?
self | 12-14-14 | ealgeone

Posted on 12/14/2014 11:57:21 AM PST by ealgeone

The reason for this article is to determine if the worship/veneration given to Mary by the catholic church is justified from a Biblical perspective. This will be evaluated using the Biblical standard and not man’s standard.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Charismatic Christian; Evangelical Christian; Theology
KEYWORDS: bible; blessedvirginmary; catholic; mary; mystery; mysterybabylon; prayer; rcinventions; vanities; vanity; worship
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To: xzins

I’m sure you do. Just keep in mind that the term “mother of God” does not come from scripture but does come from the pagans.


3,041 posted on 12/23/2014 4:30:44 PM PST by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus)
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To: af_vet_1981; Dutchboy88

Doing that old “what denomination are you” badgering again ey?


3,042 posted on 12/23/2014 4:33:45 PM PST by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus)
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To: CynicalBear

It’s clearly out of the Roman Catholic, and I think, Orthodox traditions. The Orthodox are more likely to say Theotokos, which I think is God-Bearer, so if that translation is correct, then I have fewer issues with that term.

It all is tied up with the late agreed upon doctrine of the immaculate conception, which is problematic for a number of reasons, the most important being:

1. Lack of scriptural support

2. Taking from Mary her humanity

3. Questionable logic.


3,043 posted on 12/23/2014 4:46:49 PM PST by xzins ( Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It! Those who truly support our troops pray for victory!)
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To: CynicalBear
Doing that old “what denomination are you” badgering again ey?

I'm permitted to ask someone about their affiliation on a thread (twice). You are permitted to reveal it, hide it, or not answer. I can draw my own conclusions from that as I test the spirits, to see if they are from God or not.

3,044 posted on 12/23/2014 4:47:10 PM PST by af_vet_1981 (The bus came by and I got on, That's when it all began.)
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To: CynicalBear
Mary wasn’t even important enough for anyone to even keep track of where she spent her last days or where she died. Not one word was written about her after Pentecost.

I just cannot imagine saying a single word against that brave girl. Her faith is so inspiring, her witness so full of grace. I am an unprofitable servant, yet I am in her family by the grace of God and I love her. She is called blessed by untold millions around the world down through the Centuries.

3,045 posted on 12/23/2014 4:58:56 PM PST by af_vet_1981 (The bus came by and I got on, That's when it all began.)
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To: xzins
>>It’s clearly out of the Roman Catholic, and I think, Orthodox traditions.<<

It clearly originated much farther back than that. Ishtar, who was worshipped as the "Mother of God and Queen of Heaven" who was impregnated by the pagan god Baal whose son was Tammuz the son of Baal. You can find hints of how God felt about the worship of Baal in Babylon in Ezekiel 8.

3,046 posted on 12/23/2014 5:29:51 PM PST by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus)
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To: af_vet_1981

Yet not a word about her after Pentecost. Her roll having been completed was irrelevant to contemporary writers of both secular and religious historians.


3,047 posted on 12/23/2014 5:39:13 PM PST by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus)
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To: af_vet_1981
I see it as after the fact, edifying the believing heart. Where in the parables is this fact checking ? I see a scribe instructed unto the kingdom of heaven is like a man which brings forth out of his treasure both new and old. I see disciples on the road to Emmaus who have a blessed encounter with Messiah who taught them everything about Himself from the scriptures. Halleluyah ! I want to be a hiker to Emmaus more than a Berean.

I don't doubt the facts in Scripture, though sometimes I have to work to understand them.  It's the johnny come lately's who want to sell me all manner of extra materials to help me "understand" Scripture I want to fact-check.  Book of Mormon.  Watchtower magazine.  Scofield's Notes. Lists of popes that never were.  That sort of thing.

As for the Berean response, the language was clear that this was not mere edification.  There was conditional acceptance of Paul's teaching, hence "readiness of mind."  The condition was verifying whether it was compatible with Scripture.  Look at the language:

Acts 17:11  These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
The phrase "ei echoi tauta houtōs" ("whether those things were so") is optative, i.e., in building out from "ei" ("if") it conveys a sense of conditionality, indeterminacy.  It was not a foregone conclusion in their minds that Paul was correct.  See AT Robertson on Acts 17:11. In other words, yes, they liked what Paul was saying, but they suspended judgment until they could test Paul's words against Scripture. That's the condition. This is not speaking of edification after acceptance.  This is speaking of meeting some condition before acceptance.

Now I realize no Catholic can be too fond of that answer.  It implies private judgment, and even views it as a good thing. Which of course it is.  It's even a necessity.  It's how people come to believe new things. The Emmaus hiker has already crossed that Rubicon.  But he did cross it. At some earlier point, he already committed an act of private judgment.  It's how he became a believer in the first place.

Thomas on the other hand admits up front he's not there yet. Like the Bereans, he sets a reasonable condition, corroborating evidence.  Does Jesus reprimand him for desiring evidence?  Or does Jesus offer him the evidence he seeks?

In my experience as an attorney, people with a good case make the case.  People with nothing try to blow smoke.  Neither Jesus nor the apostles ever tried to blow smoke. Jesus made an excellent case that He was Messiah, and that He had risen from the dead.  Paul had a good case that Jesus fulfilled the OT prophecies concerning Messiah.  His case was good because the facts were with him, not because he was "somebody."  The Thessalonicans wouldn't even give him a fair hearing.  We don't know the details.  But the Bereans were ready to hear it.  But they still had to judge whether it was true.  As do we all.  I guarantee you, if some random person had walked up to their synagogue and started asserting universal authority based on contradictory lists of names that could not be backed up with evidence, they would want to check that story out very carefully, and they'd be right to do so.

Peace,

SR
3,048 posted on 12/23/2014 6:17:47 PM PST by Springfield Reformer (Winston Churchill: No Peace Till Victory!)
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To: Springfield Reformer

I don’t doubt the facts in Scripture, though sometimes I have to work to understand them.


Well said, the truth will cost...............


3,049 posted on 12/23/2014 6:22:37 PM PST by PeterPrinciple (Thinking Caps are no longer being issued but there must be a warehouse full of them somewhere.)
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To: aMorePerfectUnion
Yes, the broad context is the meaning of the Holy Eucharist and the specific passage is

whosoever shall eat this bread, or drink the chalice of the Lord unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and of the blood of the Lord. But let a man prove himself: and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of the chalice. For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh judgment to himself, not discerning the body of the Lord. (1 Cor 11:27-29)
Observe: the bread and the wine of the Eucharist may transfer guilt for the body and blood of Christ whereas the duty of the Christian is to "discern" the body of the Lord in the bread and the wine.

Are you trying to reinforce my firm conviction that Protestantism ignores the scripture it does not like and offers fantastical explanations when pressed?

3,050 posted on 12/23/2014 7:10:46 PM PST by annalex (fear them not)
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To: Resettozero
Of the former RCs I know, each has repented and had a professed change of mind and then has joined with non-RCC believers in worship to God and fellowship with other Christians. They all admit they were deceived or misled (at the least) by the most subtle doctrines/practical teachings of Roman Catholicism which CHANGED the true Word of Go

MANY ARE CALLED...FEW ARE CHOSEN....it is very sad to know that anyone gave up the true church of Christ to try salvation on their own....very sad

3,051 posted on 12/23/2014 7:17:05 PM PST by terycarl (common sense prevails over all)
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To: annalex

” Are you trying to reinforce my firm conviction that Protestantism ignores the scripture it does not like and offers fantastical explanations when pressed?”

You can and likely will draw whatever conclusion (”conviction”) you already predecided. That tells me you aren’t objective in the matter, but that is based on the specific words of your post.

In this case, the context of the chapter is the Body of Christ - meaning other believers. The whole chapter corrects them for their treatment of other believers.

Best.


3,052 posted on 12/23/2014 7:17:18 PM PST by aMorePerfectUnion ( "I didn't leave the Central Oligarchy Party. It left me." - Ronaldus Maximus)
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To: CynicalBear
Nope. The same word, μενουνγε, is used also in Romans 9:20 and Romans 10:18; one can argue about the former, but in the latter the meaning is clearly "yes, rather" (KJV translates "yes, verily"). Note that Christ's version of the veneration is still veneration: "blessed are they who hear the word of God, and keep it", just applied more broadly. Negation would be "no, not blessed at all".
3,053 posted on 12/23/2014 7:17:49 PM PST by annalex (fear them not)
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To: ealgeone

I answered that several times. Matthew 16 and Matthew 18 contain a reference to the judgment of the Church on Earth is binding in Heaven.


3,054 posted on 12/23/2014 7:19:03 PM PST by annalex (fear them not)
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To: redleghunter
Do you pray to Abraham and Moses

Of course, and we ask them to pray for us. They are saints of the Catholic Church.

3,055 posted on 12/23/2014 7:20:05 PM PST by annalex (fear them not)
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To: redleghunter
We are only instructed to give our praise, honor, glory to God the Father in the Name of Jesus Christ

Praising and honoring -- in short, venerating -- a saint IS honoring and praising and glorifying Christ Who made them saints.

3,056 posted on 12/23/2014 7:21:26 PM PST by annalex (fear them not)
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To: redleghunter; CynicalBear; metmom
James 2: 23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.(KJV)

Can you explain why James stated the above after discussing dead faith and works?

Yes, sure. The passage is:

Was not Abraham our father justified by works, offering up Isaac his son upon the altar? [22] Seest thou, that faith did co-operate with his works; and by works faith was made perfect? [23] And the scripture was fulfilled, saying: Abraham believed God, and it was reputed to him to justice, and he was called the friend of God. (James 2:21-23) James correctly points out that Abraham was not saved by faith alone: He offered his own son for sacrifice God seemed to ask. I might add, he also crossed a desert by faith. Both are acts of faith that are also heroic deeds. As St. James explains that a living faith cooperates with works and is perfected by works.

You confusion stems from the fact that the Protestant view the passage in Roman 4 as a prooftext of salvation by faith alone. Of course, it isn't. All St. Paul is saying that Abraham was saved by his mental disposition, -- his faith -- even before he was circumcised, and the Romans likewise can be saved without going through circumcision. Paul is not discussing faith in relation to good works but faith in relation to Jewish Law.

Romans 11 that you cite states the Catohlic doctrine that salvation is by grace alone and grace is not of works.

3,057 posted on 12/23/2014 7:30:33 PM PST by annalex (fear them not)
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To: boatbums; aMorePerfectUnion
It's pretty obvious that Paul is talking about the Body of Christ, the church

Yeah, riiight. The congregation is supposed to eat themselves reverently and orderly and not overdo the drinking of their fellows' blood. Makes perfect sense.

3,058 posted on 12/23/2014 7:33:12 PM PST by annalex (fear them not)
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To: metmom
It’s ridiculous what lengths people will go to

, to deny the true church of Jesus Christ and try to "do it themselves"...

3,059 posted on 12/23/2014 7:36:09 PM PST by terycarl (common sense prevails over all)
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To: metmom
So while Mary may not have physically murdered someone, if she lied, hated anyone, whatever, then it's the same in God's eyes as doing the sin.

would that equate with Jesus being angry with the money changers and tipping over their booths and throwing them out of the temple???

3,060 posted on 12/23/2014 7:39:47 PM PST by terycarl (common sense prevails over all)
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