Vatican: Catholics now recognize Martin Luther as a ‘witness to the gospel’ [Cath/Prot] Caucus

Life Site News ^ | January 5, 2016 | John-Henry Westen

[af_vet_1981]

Yes, I saw that; it did not seem to me to be a formal apology to the Jews for the text under discussion.

[jjotto]

Not to put too fine a point on it, but anti-Judaism is the beating heart of all traditional Christianity.

The ELCA’s statement was in conjunction with the Lutheran World Federation. Just as the LWF does not represent every Lutheran group, there is also no all-encompassing Jewish group that could accept the hypothetical universal apology.

Most secular Jews seems to appreciate the effort.

http://www.jta.org/1994/05/06/archive/lutheran-church-formally-rejects-luthers-anti-semitic-teachings

[piusv]

And not a word from “The Dubia Four”.....

[rephope]

A Treatise on the Power and Primacy of the Pope

http://bookofconcord.org/treatise.php

[af_vet_1981]

he ELCA’s statement was in conjunction with the Lutheran World Federation. Just as the LWF does not represent every Lutheran group, there is also no all-encompassing Jewish group that could accept the hypothetical universal apology.

Most secular Jews seems to appreciate the effort.

Two points, perhaps three, and then a concluding remark
1. My original question was as to the entity and evidence of a formal apology; it seems to me it is for self described Lutherans to decide whether such an entity exists ( the ELCA in conjunction with LWF equals "the Lutheran Church" or not, and hence if it has the authority to issue a formal apology.
2. The recipients need no ll-encompassing Jewish group. It is sufficient to address "all Jews."
3. Most secular Jews also appreciate other efforts that would put them at odds with more religious Jews. Can you imagine scenarios where an entity purporting to represent Judaism apologized for the actions of Jewish religious leaders from centuries ago ? Would that constitute a formal apology for Judaism ?

It would be a more accurate observation that some Lutheran groups have disavowed themselves from antiSemitism as embodied in the writings of Martin Luther, especially that horrible book.

[piusv]

Not to put too fine a point on it, but anti-Judaism is the beating heart of all traditional Christianity.

Two things:

(1) Anti-Judaism is not the same thing as anti-Semitism. And yes, the Church has traditionally been anti-Judaism. Although individual Catholics may have traditionally taken it to the level of anti-Semitism, those two things are very different. The Church has never taught that anti-Semitism is allowed and I can find a papal quote before Vatican II that specifically speaks against it.

(2) Although anti-Judaism is an important aspect of traditional Christianity, I'm not sure I would say it was/is "the beating heart". Why do you say this?

[HomerBohn]

Since Pius XII all successors have been bad popes. A new religion was formed that has little to do with Jesus Christ and much to do with secular humanism.

The Catholic Church, that is the one that’s headquartered in the Vatican is NOT catholic, nor is it holy. Holiness went out the window with the tenets and rubrics.

[piusv]

My point was that a man who purports to be pope and teaches heresy to the Universal Church isn’t a “bad” pope. He isn’t pope at all. I wasn’t clear...

[HomerBohn]

Bergoglio is like Obama. He is not legitimate. There were quite a few that preceded him that were likewise illegitimate.

[ealgeone]

>>If Luther was so wrong why the Counter Reformation?<<

Duh... Maybe it was because Luther was so wrong. Did you ever think of that?

Yeah, right. The RCC made the changes it did because Luther was wrong.

Intellect is not required of catholicism I see.

[Bellflower]

It isn't so much that ML was anti Semitic. He took a very hard line to any religious set of doctrines opposed to the truth of the knowledge that salvation comes through Jesus Christ and believing in Him alone, which obviously most Jews deny. He welcomed with open arms the Jews that turned and embraced Jesus Christ as Savior.

He, for instance, took a strong opposition to Catholic doctrine which adds onto this doctrine and basically believed being a member of the Catholic Church saved with it's many false doctrines added onto absolute forever salvation through Jesus Christ and Him alone, apart from any need to do works and be a good member of any Church, including the Catholic Church.

Some Jews did convert and were absorbed into true Christianity. Those Jews went to heaven, as well often as some of their progeny. It is so much better for them than for those who continued in not believing in The true and living Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. ML may have taken a hard line against their unbelief but through it some are in heaven today rather than in hell forever.

[af_vet_1981]

It isn't so much that ML was anti Semitic.

Yes it is; so much so that ML wrote a seven point plan for the Holocaust that the Nazi Party adopted. That's how bad he was.

[af_vet_1981]

What shall we Christians do with this rejected and condemned people, the Jews? Since they live among us, we dare not tolerate their conduct, now that we are aware of their lying and reviling and blaspheming. If we do, we become sharers in their lies, cursing and blasphemy. Thus we cannot extinguish the unquenchable fire of divine wrath, of which the prophets speak, nor can we convert the Jews. With prayer and the fear of God we must practice a sharp mercy to see whether we might save at least a few from the glowing flames. We dare not avenge ourselves. Vengeance a thousand times worse than we could wish them already has them by the throat. I shall give you my sincere advice:

First to set fire to their synagogues or schools and to bury and cover with dirt whatever will not burn, so that no man will ever again see a stone or cinder of them. This is to be done in honor of our Lord and of Christendom, so that God might see that we are Christians, and do not condone or knowingly tolerate such public lying, cursing, and blaspheming of his Son and of his Christians. For whatever we tolerated in the past unknowingly ­ and I myself was unaware of it ­ will be pardoned by God. But if we, now that we are informed, were to protect and shield such a house for the Jews, existing right before our very nose, in which they lie about, blaspheme, curse, vilify, and defame Christ and us (as was heard above), it would be the same as if we were doing all this and even worse ourselves, as we very well know.

Second, I advise that their houses also be razed and destroyed. For they pursue in them the same aims as in their synagogues. Instead they might be lodged under a roof or in a barn, like the gypsies. This will bring home to them that they are not masters in our country, as they boast, but that they are living in exile and in captivity, as they incessantly wail and lament about us before God.

Third, I advise that all their prayer books and Talmudic writings, in which such idolatry, lies, cursing and blasphemy are taught, be taken from them. (remainder omitted)

Fourth, I advise that their rabbis be forbidden to teach henceforth on pain of loss of life and limb. For they have justly forfeited the right to such an office by holding the poor Jews captive with the saying of Moses (Deuteronomy 17 [:10 ff.]) in which he commands them to obey their teachers on penalty of death, although Moses clearly adds: "what they teach you in accord with the law of the Lord." Those villains ignore that. They wantonly employ the poor people's obedience contrary to the law of the Lord and infuse them with this poison, cursing, and blasphemy. In the same way the pope also held us captive with the declaration in Matthew 16 {:18], "You are Peter," etc, inducing us to believe all the lies and deceptions that issued from his devilish mind. He did not teach in accord with the word of God, and therefore he forfeited the right to teach.

Fifth, I advise that safe­conduct on the highways be abolished completely for the Jews. For they have no business in the countryside, since they are not lords, officials, tradesmen, or the like. Let they stay at home. (...remainder omitted).

Sixth, I advise that usury be prohibited to them, and that all cash and treasure of silver and gold be taken from them and put aside for safekeeping. The reason for such a measure is that, as said above, they have no other means of earning a livelihood than usury, and by it they have stolen and robbed from us all they possess. Such money should now be used in no other way than the following: Whenever a Jew is sincerely converted, he should be handed one hundred, two hundred, or three hundred florins, as personal circumstances may suggest. With this he could set himself up in some occupation for the support of his poor wife and children, and the maintenance of the old or feeble. For such evil gains are cursed if they are not put to use with God's blessing in a good and worthy cause.

Seventh, I commend putting a flail, an ax, a hoe, a spade, a distaff, or a spindle into the hands of young, strong Jews and Jewesses and letting them earn their bread in the sweat of their brow, as was imposed on the children of Adam (Gen 3[:19]}. For it is not fitting that they should let us accursed Goyim toil in the sweat of our faces while they, the holy people, idle away their time behind the stove, feasting and farting, and on top of all, boasting blasphemously of their lordship over the Christians by means of our sweat. No, one should toss out these lazy rogues by the seat of their pants.

* * *

But what will happen even if we do burn down the Jews' synagogues and forbid them publicly to praise God, to pray, to teach, to utter God's name? They will still keep doing it in secret. If we know that they are doing this in secret, it is the same as if they were doing it publicly. for our knowledge of their secret doings and our toleration of them implies that they are not secret after all and thus our conscience is encumbered with it before God.

* * *

Accordingly, it must and dare not be considered a trifling matter but a most serious one to seek counsel against this and to save our souls from the Jews, that is, from the devil and from eternal death. My advice, as I said earlier, is:

First, that their synagogues be burned down, and that all who are able toss in sulphur and pitch; it would be good if someone could also throw in some hellfire. That would demonstrate to God our serious resolve and be evidence to all the world that it was in ignorance that we tolerated such houses, in which the Jews have reviled God, our dear Creator and Father, and his Son most shamefully up till now but that we have now given them their due reward.

* * *

I wish and I ask that our rulers who have Jewish subjects exercise a sharp mercy toward these wretched people, as suggested above, to see whether this might not help (though it is doubtful). They must act like a good physician who, when gangrene has set in, proceeds without mercy to cut, saw, and burn flesh, veins, bone, and marrow. Such a procedure must also be followed in this instance. Burn down their synagogues, forbid all that I enumerated earlier, force them to work, and deal harshly with them, as Moses did in the wilderness, slaying three thousand lest the whole people perish. They surely do not know what they are doing; moreover, as people possessed, they do not wish to know it, hear it, or learn it. There it would be wrong to be merciful and confirm them in their conduct. If this does not help we must drive them out like mad dogs, so that we do not become partakers of their abominable blasphemy and all their other vices and thus merit God's wrath and be damned with them. I have done my duty. Now let everyone see to his. I am exonerated. "

[piusv]

http://novusordowatch.org/2017/01/vatican-luther-witness-to-gospel/

which includes the Catholic Church’s and the proper response to Martin Luther:

http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Leo10/l10decet.htm

[boatbums]

It isn't so much that ML was anti Semitic.

Yes it is; so much so that ML wrote a seven point plan for the Holocaust that the Nazi Party adopted. That's how bad he was.

You aren't seriously contending that ML wrote this "plan" for the Nazis to use four HUNDRED years after he died, do you? And do you have ANY evidence that Luther's followers actually carried out any of his "plan"?

You bring this up frequently enough that I think you ought to explain what is your real reason for doing so. It's not so that Lutherans should be forced to change the name of their denomination, is it? If you want to discredit ALL Lutherans and, by association, ALL "Protestants", based upon the late-in-life frustrations of one man who was a part of the great Reformation, then be honest and say so. But when you bring up Luther's admittedly wrong-headed and long ago discredited anti-Semitism whenever the man's name is mentioned while you brush off the very real actions and fiercer proclamations against Jews of the Roman Catholic church up to and beyond Luther's time, it smacks of hypocrisy and willful blindness. I won't even get into the fact that NO Protestant ever saw Luther as their infallible POPE.

So, what do you expect to be the result of your blanket condemnation of Luther? Can the man come back from the dead to apologize and recant his words on this topic? Isn't it enough that NO official statements of faith of ANY Lutheran or other Protestant denomination includes anti-Semitic tenets and these views were long ago disavowed? What do you want?

[boatbums]

Meant to ping you, too.

[Bellflower]

I am not a Lutheran, though I know ML’s great, great... Granddaughter, who is also closely related to Bonhoeffer.

I have a friend who is Jewish and went to Milwaukee Synagogues with him. I love Jews, but was totally blown away for the utter contempt some of them held for Christianity. If I were a Muslim they likely would have opened their arms to me to show how unbiased they were, but for me it was sharp, hateful contempt.

Many Jews believe that Jesus was a blasphemous, lying, horrible person, turned into an idol. To be consistent with their rejection of Him as their Messiah, they actually cannot be blamed for their utter contempt for Him. If they were right about Him, which they are not, they should hate the very mention of His name.

I, loving Jews was completely shocked and very hurt when I became aware of some of them having a hatred and mistrust of me because I am a Christian, though I can actually somewhat understand it. If Jews of Luther’s time expressed their foul hatred and distain for Jesus, as there is an underbelly of Jews who do today, maybe the friction between the two groups is more understandable.

That being said, in the times he lived in hatred and mistrust of other conflicting religious groups was the rule. To judge him from the perspective of our times may not be fair, as it isn’t fair to dispise some of founders because they owned some slaves, as it was the accepted norm of their day. They are all mere men, apart from direct illumination from God’s Holy Word.

After terrible treatment by some Jews in their Synagogue I studied the net and found a fair amount of shocking and detestable vitriol against Jesus, laced with many really, really nasty twisted lies being spread about Him.

Someday soon Jews will greatly mourn for the One they have pierced. They will be in grief and shock when they see Him and realize that it is after all Jesus who is their very own Messiah. (zechariah 12:10-14)

Some Jews were also exceptionally nice to me. I love and pray for Jews regularly.

[af_vet_1981]

I have a friend who is Jewish and went to Milwaukee Synagogues with him. I love Jews, but was totally blown away for the utter contempt some of them held for Christianity. If I were a Muslim they likely would have opened their arms to me to show how unbiased they were, but for me it was sharp, hateful contempt.

... Many Jews believe ...

1. What is your expertise or experience to know what "Many Jews believe ?
2. Why were you going to Milwaukee synagogues ?
   
   
3. Is your Jewish friend a Christian ?
   
   
4. Were you in their synagogues at their invitation or, in their eyes, as a proselyter or disrupter (why would they even discuss Jesus or Christianity in a synagogue service) ?

[Bellflower]

I believe what I do because of my life experience. After my own experience I researched the situation on the net extensively and was very shocked to read what a fair amount of Jews had written about Jesus. These were horrible things that I will not even repeat.

My friend was not and isn't a Christian. He wanted to go to Church with us and loved Milwaukee Synagogues and wanted us to experience them.

I fully expected to be treated civilly. One Synagogue treated us very friendly and this is what I would have expected and will choose to remember and cherish.

But, I also remember going with him to an important one. At the door they became very upset that we wore crosses. They let him know that they wanted us to take our crosses off. It went down hill from there.

The really fantastic thing is that the leader's sermon was all about showing tolerance and he went on and on in very flowery language about how you are suppose to treat others who are different than yourself.

We didn't say one word about Jesus, because we wouldn't go into their meeting and behave disrespectfully concerning their beliefs. When introduced to him he was rude and made it apparent that he was snubbing us. Afterwards there was a meal and our friend, a member, wanted for us to participate. We were rudely and physically barred by several people. We made no attempt at going in because they had already told our friend that we were not welcomed. The physical display was uncalled for and totally not necessary.

Our friend was embarrassed. Later he wanted us to come again to give them another chance. We said no thank you, we aren't going to set ourselves up to be treated so disrespectfully again.

Once again, we did absolutely nothing to deserve such humiliating treatment, except to wear crosses that we did not take off when they told our friend to have us take them off, which was very strange, paranoid, controlling and rude.

[x]

This Western Christianity’s version of the US Civil War Centennial.