Posted on 01/02/2018 5:09:40 PM PST by Salvation
We already know the Whore isn't the Church. As previously discussed the Whore existed in John's time, 'carried by the Beast', five of whose heads had already fallen. Neither Vatican City nor Christian Rome existed in John's time.
Revelations is notoriously dense and symbolic. We're not to iron it all out on this thread. But let's try to add some clarity to this 2000-year old jigsaw.
This calls for a mind with wisdom: the seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman is seated; they are also seven kings, five of whom have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come, and when he comes he must remain only a little while.
Note that Revelations doesn't mention seven hills. The word used is oros, which means mountain.
Mountains are often symbols of rulership or depicted as seats of authority in Scripture.
Why gaze in envy, you rugged mountain, at the mountain where God chooses to reign?
or the famous Daniel prophecy of the statue prefiguring the Kingdom of God
But the rock that struck the statue became a huge mountain and filled the whole earth.
or this from Amos:
Woe to you who are complacent in Zion, and to you who feel secure on Mount Samaria, you notable men of the foremost nation.
In Revelations the identity is definite. The text mentions 'seven Mountains' that 'are also seven Kings'. Not Kingdoms, but Kings.
Do these Mountain/Kings refer to Emperors of Rome? If they are - then which Emperors are we talking about? The ones that the Whore was 'carried by', whatever that means?
As for the Whore: in the OT the term 'whore' or 'harlot' - when used of Jerusalem or of the Jews - refers to apostacy from God. For instance: see Ezekiel 16 or Isaiah 1:21 or Jeremiah 3.
In Ezekiel Jerusalem is charged with fornicating with the Assyrians, the Eygptians, the Philistines and the Canaanites.
In Jeremiah Judah and Israel are charged with adultery 'with stones and trees' - i.e with the worship of foreign Gods.
It's no great stretch then to identify the Whore of Revelations with apostate Jerusalem once again. But this time the apostacy does not lie in worshipping foreign Gods, but in refusing the full revelation of God in Jesus Christ.
Moreover the apostates shared/adopted this repudiation of Christ with or from those around them. In this sense they are indeed fornicating with 'the kings of the land'.
If the Whore is a reference to apostate Jerusalem - or alternatively to an evil being that tempts us all to Apostacy - then her sitting on the Beast would not indicate a geographical location but some form of alliance between apostacy and paganism - or alternatively between separate demonic beings. Whatever affinity of people and tutelary demon these terms 'Beast' and 'Whore' in fact refer to, we do know that they are united in persecuting the Church.
All of this is tentative, like most exegesis of Revelations. However the narrative of the 'Ten Horns' puts us on surer ground.
The ten horns you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but will receive one hour of authority as kings, along with the beast. These kings have one purpose: to yield their power and authority to the beast.
They will make war against the Lamb, and the Lamb will triumph over them, because He is Lord of lords and King of kings; and He will be accompanied by His called and chosen and faithful ones.
What are the Ten Horns? There were ten distinct persecutions of Christians spanning from 64 AD to 313 AD. Each one was begun by a separate "King" - a separate Emperor of Rome. These ten persecutions were identified by the fourth century Church as the Ten Horns of the Beast from Revelation. They were also likened to the ten plagues of Egypt.
The Persecutions make for a long, ugly list. But Christ triumphed over each one of them.
1. The Persecution under Nero in 67 AD
During this first great persecution Nero devised new and increasingly gruesome punishments, including sewing animal skins to Christians and releasing wild dogs to eat them alive. He also put shirts dipped in wax on some of the Christians and then lit them on fire, using them to illuminate his gardens for his invited guests.
Paul and Peter died in this first round of persecution.
2. The Persecution under Domitian in 81 AD.
His persecution of Christians stemmed from their refusal to worship him as a god. He also ordered the deaths of the entire lineage of David.
Domitian famously tried to boil John alive, but when John miraculously survived he was banished to Patmos, where the Revelation took place.
3. The Persecution under Trajan in 108 AD.
Ignatius was the most famous of the martyrs of this persecution.
4. The Persecution under Marcus Aurelius Antonius in 162 AD.
The tortures used were apparently so brutal that (it is said) the pagan onlookers would shudder with horror at the sights. Some of them became converts at 'a faith which inspired such fortitude.'
Polycarp and Justin Martyr were martyred during this persecution.
5. The Persecution that commenced with Severus in 192 AD.
Many who died under this persecution were killed during games at the amphitheaters.
6. The Persecution under Maximus 235 AD.
During this time Christians were martyred without trial. Their bodies were cast into pits 'as many as fifty or sixty at a time'.
7. The Persecution under Decius in 249 AD.
The first victim of this bout of persecution was Fabian, Bishop of Rome. Many more victims soon followed. A new set of imaginative deaths were devised for those who would not renounce Christ
8. The Persecution under Valerian in 257 AD. This emperor likewise invented new ways of persecuting Christians. At the end of which Sapor, King of Persia, captured and enslaved Valerian, and ended up gruesomely torturing him. May God have mercy on his soul.
9. The Persecution that began under Aurelian in 274 AD
I couldn't find out much about this one.
10. The Persecution under Diocletian in 303 AD.
This one was peculiarly terrible. On February 23rd Diocletian tried to destroy Christianity in a single day. Churches were raided and burnt to the ground. Countless Christians were martyred in horrible ways. The Christian city of Phrygia was burned to the ground with all its inhabitants.
The torture and martyrdom was so severe that several pagan governors accused the Imperial Court of impropriety.
Because of their entreaties, some Christians escaped death, but not before having their ears cut off, right eyes poked out, noses slit, limbs maimed, and finally branded with red-hot irons.
And there we have it. The Ten Horns are the Ten Great Persecutions. The Whore and the Beast are the peoples, and/or the literal demons - that animated these persecutions.
The Ten Persecutions were very terrible, but the Lamb triumphed. May Christ so triumph in us, especially if we are brought to martydom. Amen.
To this day, the names of the more famous Saints martyed in these persecutions are read out as part of the full liturgy of the mass.
Now Chuckles - to the rest of your post. It's very late here, so I will have to give short answers. I'm fading fast, and each one of these deserves a thread to itself.
We don't celebrate the Mosaic festivals because they are part of the Old Covenant. Christ fulfilled the Old Covenant and gave us the New Covenant.
We celebrate Easter, not Passover, because Passover is subsumed within Easter. The Passover is the foreshadowing of Christ's Passion. The Blood of the Lamb protecting God's people from the destroyer - it's evident that Christ's Passion of Christ is the fulfillment of the Passover.
The Church does indeed declare some attempts at marriage null and void. For instance due to consanguinity or due to people already being validly married.
The Church does not worship Mary, though it certainly worships her Child.
The Church does not worship idols. An idol is an created thing that is worshipped as if it were a God.
Creating images (as opposed to idols) is not proscribed. Looking at an image of your loved ones is not idolatry. Worshipping that image, believing that that image were a God - that would indeed be idolatry.
If simply making images were wrong, then there are lot of cat videos on Youtube that need furious denunciation.
Prayer is not worship. "I pray thee" or "I prithee" literally means "Please".
If you ask someone for help, you are - quite literally - praying to them. But you are not worshipping them, unless the being that you are praying to is God.
I see FReepers making prayers of each other every day: for instance when they start a prayer thread and ask other Freepers for prayers.
It may ease your mind to learn that Bergoglio is not the Pope. Benedict broke a critical piece of Canon law when he attempted to resign the Papacy. His resignation was impaired by serious error. The result is that Benedict is still the Pope.
This is why Bergoglio publicly stumbles from error to error. It is because he is not the Pope. Until everyone understands this, his stumblings and heresies will remain a source of deep scandal.
I pray that God will resolve the matter soon. Hence my tagline.
Quote-We don’t celebrate the Mosaic festivals because they are part of the Old Covenant. Christ fulfilled the Old Covenant and gave us the New Covenant.
We celebrate Easter, not Passover, because Passover is subsumed within Easter. The Passover is the foreshadowing of Christ’s Passion. The Blood of the Lamb protecting God’s people from the destroyer - it’s evident that Christ’s Passion of Christ is the fulfillment of the Passover.
Problem is because of Rome, Passover has been relegated to just another day but when one follws the Father’s calendar, Passover, the 14th Day, is His 6th and final work day of His 2nd week.
Good Friday is NOT the Father’s 6th work day.
Neither is Rome’s holy Saturday His 7th Day Sabbath.
And so on.(that would be news to all those Moses followers too)
Rome has changed times and laws with their calendars.
Predicted way back in Daniel.
When people get eyes to see Passover, Unleavened Bread and First Fruits are the Father’s 6th,7th and 1st Days, they will start to see how Rome and the whole world is being deceived by Satan. Which was predicted all the way back in Revelation.
Chuckles, you should inclue Rome’s daughters in your group. They are just as good as peddling Roman lies as Rome itself..
Almost like a completely different Jesus and 1st importance of the gospel is revealed when one tests Rome and her traditions with The Word and the Word made flesh.
And that isn’t just a Roman problem.
Christianity judaim and Islam, heck the whole world, accepts the false premises of those who have been a vessel to counterfeit truth..
Wait till people see just how all these inherited lies have blinded them to what it means by the Word became Flesh.
Today is thor’s day on the world calendar. Being conformed to that world pattern has blinded the eyes of even the strongest people of faith.
Imagine if they knew what today was to the Father and the Sonn. It isn’t thor’s day to our Creator and our Redeemer.
But all of this was predicted in places like Daniel and Revelation..
The spring Feasts were fulfilled with Jesus and the Holy Spirit, but the Fall Feats are still in front of us. Being Old Testament and New Testament doesn't matter, it's all the same Book. Actually, Christians get to be under the Abrahamic covenant. The Mosaic covenant is the one to avoid. The covenant with Abraham was through faith and God did everything. The only works involved with Abraham was his faith and obedience.
The Easter thing is straight out of Babylon. If we wish to follow God, then we should celebrate Passover for His death, Unleavened Bread for His burial, and First Fruits as Resurrection Day. As far as I know, and I could be wrong, I've NEVER personally seen Passover or First Fruits land on Easter. It's always at least a week apart, usually more. Usually the Jewish calendar, being 30 days each month and 360 day year, the day will eventually land on the same day, but I've never seen Easter do this. The Sabbath was made to be on the 7th day in Genesis 1, and written into Law in Leviticus 23. No where in Scripture can you find God changing it to the first of the week. God even made a Commandment to make it clear what day we are to set aside for Him. Sunday worship comes from man changing it to worship the sun god of the pagans.
You are correct that Rome changed the times, laws, and calendars, and it was predicted this would happen by evil doers. To make believers stop worshiping on the proper days is a way to confuse people to follow the wrong person when the time came.
This is why all the confusion in the last days. "The Day that no one Knows" is Trumpets. Every Jew knows that. It's 2 days and it only starts when the New Moon is seen, which no one knows the day or the hour that will happen. All the other Feasts are done in the middle of the month with a full moon. This is why Paul told the Thessalonians they were not in the dark and they knew perfectly well the Lord would come as a thief in the night, A Jew knows that the High Priest would walk the walls and catch watchers sleeping and set their garments on fire so they would be naked. He is known as the "thief in the night". Our High Priest is Jesus and He will come when gentiles are asleep and leave them behind to face the Beast. Several places we are told to "Watch!" How can we watch if we don't know what day it will be? Christians all over the world are sitting in pews every Sunday convinced when Jesus comes they will be taken out, saved from the Beast. NOT TRUE! They will be left behind to face execution for their faith. These will be the souls under the Altar in Heaven beheaded because they wouldn't take the mark. The ones that knew the day, and knew to watch and prepare are taken out to be the Bride of Christ. We will be hidden away for the 7 years of Tribulation on the earth. Noah and the Flood is a type and shadow of this time. Noah built the Ark as God told him, then entered the Ark WHEN GOD TOLD HIM 7 DAYS BEFORE THE RAIN STARTED. Noah knew what to do a full week before the rain fell because God told him exactly what He was doing. The Bible tells the ones that have ears to hear, and eyes to see, exactly what He is going to do and the day He will do it. Just because we won't heed God's Word doesn't make what He has revealed to us untrue. You can follow God, or man and the world. I can guarantee He will not do anything on Christmas and Easter. If we know what these days are and we know where they came from, why are we still hanging on to something that is even forbidden in Scripture? Traditions of men!!
Deut 12:29-32 tells us NOT to follow the traditions of the Gentiles. Jer 10:1-5 specifically tells us a tree in the house is a Gentile idol. We know all these things, yet we still do them. We know Halloween is strictly pagan, yet even churches have get together's on that day to give their children a slice of pagan life so they won't feel left out of the lost world. How many observant Jews go out on Halloween to get candy for their children?
As for your point about the "daughters" of Rome, Yes, I'm hoping that people can see no matter what church they attend, they have been tainted by Rome. No matter what they want to believe about their origins, most of them came from some splinter of Rome. In Scripture, women are religions or denominations. A daughter comes from one of these women. Being a daughter of the Harlot is no better than being the Harlot if you continue her habits.
The problem with Jews is they missed Jesus, but they have the background we should learn from. The problem with Gentiles is we have Jesus, but we have no clue about the rest of the Bible. What God is looking for would fit with the Messianic movement of the Jews. If Jesus was born an observant Jew, lived as an observant Jew, died as an observant Jew, and ascended as an observant Jew, wouldn't it behoove most of us to learn the Bible to understand how we are to imitate Jesus? A Roman Caesar in 330 AD had no clue how to set up a Christian movement and could only copy his own idol worship inherited from Babylon. We can point to Islam and understand they are following the moon god from Babylon, but we cannot seem to see the same for us and the sun god of Babylon. Just like you said about thor's day, we can't seem to get it that sun day is not the Lords day as listed in Leviticus 23:3. Just last night in my church, we discussed Genesis 1 and many were still hanging on to a day could have been any amount of time to God. God said 6 times that and evening and a morning were the (such and such) day. He emphasized 6 times that a day was a day, but we still try to squeeze Darwinism and millions of years into the Bible. If we can't believe God created everything in 6 days, then we miss many more clues given in the Bible. In 2 Peter, Peter tells us that 1000 years is a day and a day is 1000 years in prophesy. We should be looking for something to happen in 6000 years of history and know that the next 1000 years will be Jesus' reign on Earth. He just got through with telling about Noah's Flood and the destruction of the Earth, but for some reason, we cannot read the words on the page and start to try to fit 1000 years as millions and millions of years. Was it happenstance that the Bible mentioned the rain started when Noah was 600 years old?
It would benefit every Christian to at least study once, the Feasts and Festivals of the Lord to understand more of Prophesy. Then they should study Judaism in general to understand more of what Jesus was talking about. Another one would be a study on spiritual language. Tree's are people, women are churches, birds are demons, wolves are demons, locusts are demons, bread is Jesus, living water is Jesus, Serpents and dragons are Satan, beasts of the field are demons, water is words, a flood comes from the devil and a spring comes from Jesus. There are literally dozens more and need to be learned to have ears to hear. Just as an example, read Isa 4:1.
And in that day seven women shall take hold of one man, saying, "We will eat our own food and wear our own apparel; Only let us be called by your name, To take away our reproach."
7 women are in letters in Revelation. They are all "so called" Christians. They will eat their own food, means they will make up their own doctrine. Wearing their own apparel, means they are self righteous and they call evil; good and good; evil. Only let us be called "Christian" instead of witches and Satan worshipers. He is saying that these churches are not even close to what God has laid out plainly in Scripture. In 90-100 AD, John wrote 3 John :9, which said a Greek church would not even allow him to enter the church, let alone speak. This is JOHN, the one Jesus loved, was forbidden to visit a church. This abomination is not new.
"Keep the tip"
QuoteThe problem with Jews is they missed Jesus, but they have the background we should learn from.
A lot in there chuckles and I differ on some of the timing and future development..
Jews may miss Jesus today because they are expecting a little more Torah at least with him..
Israel was taught a calendar of 1 new moon day, 6 work days, 1 Sabbath day (Ezekiel 46:1 template)- they don’t follow it today..but it explains a lot of what we all read and study and why Israel was commanded to do what they were commanded to do..the easy answer is the Son.
Keeping with the topic, It is why boys were circumcised on the 8th day and how every 8th day of His months are the weekly 7th Sabbath.
Jews would be blessed to know:
The Messiah of Israel was born on the New Moon Day.
A day every month that was set apart by the Father as holy.
And then circumcised on the 7th Day Sabbath. A day every week that was set apart by the Father as holy.
And then presented in the temple 40 days after His birth, on the 10th day of the next month.
A day once a year that was set apart by the Father as holy.
Then baptised on His 30th birthday, the New Moon Day.
A day every month that was set apart by the Father as holy.
Then began His ministry 40 days after His birthday baptism, the 10th day of the next month.
A day every year that was set apart by the Father as holy.
Then laid His life down as the Passover Lamb on the 6th Day of the work week.
Feast of Passover- not yet evening but scriptures record the darkness needed to fulfill the law.
A work/preparation day set apart once a year, but commemorated every month as the 6th and final work day of His 2nd week.
He laid in the tomb as Unleavened Bread on the 7th Day Sabbath-
A Sabbath day set apart once a year by the Father as holy, but commemorated every month as the 7th Day Sabbath of His 2nd week.
He Rose from the tomb as First Fruits of those who have fallen asleep.
1st day of the 3rd work week. Feast of First Fruits.
A set apart day once a year by the Father, but commemorated every month as the 1st work day of His 3rd week.
Jews will miss the Word that Became Flesh because they are told He was born on December 25, circumcised on January 1, killed on Good Friday and raised on Easter Sunday, instead of what is found in Torah and the New Testament.
Problem is Christianity would have problems seeing it too.
I differ on Revelation than you because of this. I see great deception today. I see marks of lawlessness and disobedience today. Satan deceives the whole world today.. and the marks on the hand and foreheads are about a visible as they were when they were signs of obedience in Deuteronomy.
Today is the 16th day on the Fathers calendar. A day described above as ‘first fruits’ commemoration. The 1st day of His work week. You being at church yesterday meant you were there on His 7th Day Sabbath.
Again, not according to the world, but according to His Creation, His Word and The Word made Flesh.
Which is why the warning in Revelation to worship Him who made the heavens, earth, sea fountains of water in an Revelation 14 isn’t a future development in my journey. Why the patience of the saints is to ‘keep the commandment of God and faith of Jesus’..
Satan makes it hard keep the Commandments, to remember the Sabbath day when its hidden from the world.
The Messiah of Israel’s birth, circumcision,presentation in the temple, baptism, beginning of ministry, death,bural and resurrection is in the Old Testament Word.days He taught Israel to assemble.
He was circumcised on a weekly Sabbath and presented in the temple on annual Sabbath and laid in the tomb on a weekly Sabatb.
And beleve me, jews miss these as much as they an te rest of us stumble into them.
Jews prefer their own traditions of man too..and because Rome controls time, they are not going to see The Word made Flesh.
Some day the world will understand all of it. Until then, Satan deceives the whole world
Revelation 13 happens this very day..
Not enough people can see it.
May He bless your journey through this wilderness!
All for His Glory!
Funny you noted being in church yesterday. Yesterday was the Sabbath day (15th day) making today His 1st day(16th day), where it’s commemorated ‘let there be light’- the day that He rose from the grave to be first fruits of those who have fallen asleep.
One other note- evening and morning in Hebrew is not a day.
That is actually defined as ‘sunset’/fading of day and break of day/Dawn.
Those words for evening and morning are actually detailing Night ! The time between the day light.
That’s why you see His Creation work, then evening and morning-
Day- work performed
Evening and morning- night, no work
One day
That is how subtle the enemy is. Calling day night, and night day..
Again all for His Glory!
Jesus is in everyone who accepts him as Savior, and his forgiveness. The Holy Spirit is the Comforter, who comes to all who receive him, after Jesus ascended into Heaven. God’s presence is always with us. Those who live with the Holy Spirit are in constant awareness of his presence. The book of ACTS.
Nothing was done away with, until Jesus comes to take the Church (Rapture). Paul the Apostle (Saul of Tarsus) wrote Corinthians, about Gifts, and he was not even a Christian, until after Jesus had died, resurrected, and ascended...
Surely you know more bible than that...
Rom_8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
And surely you know that not every person has the Spirit of God within them...
Joh_3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
One must be born again before he can be indwelt with the Holy Spirit...
Amen!
Every person has the spirit of God within them - otherwise, they couldn’t BE. There is no Life without God.
Some have perverted the Spirit, and need to atone (become At One.)
“The RCC is almost totally man made and confused verse reading.”
So says the person who makes up their own truth and religion by interpreting sacred scripture as they see fit, ignores the early writings of the Church fathers with there eye on the oral tradition(talked about in the Bible depite so many denials to the contrary) which was handed down to them with each passing generation from the very apostles themselves who taught orally prior to them having writen anything down which came later and prior to the sacred texts being placed together by the very same Church(sacred texts you try to use against the same Church)you call the “whore of babylon” in the late 300’s. It’s rather ironic you do the same thing that you accuse the Church, ie the mystical body of Christ, meaning the Church is Christ here on earth. How dare you defame our Blessed Lord, Jesus Christ like that with your malice born out of wilful ignorance. You manifest the same liberal mindset in theology as is seen in the politcal world. Turn away from that haughty pride of yours, there is nor room for it in heaven
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