The Neverending Story (The Christian Chronicles)

Associated Press ^ | 3/24/01

[malakhi]

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.

Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams

Previous Thread

[father_elijah]

I have written what I have written.

He who has eyes, let him see.

Christ's blessings be with you.

[father_elijah]

I found FreeRepublic because of a younger priest who was a lurker. He showed me FR because he knew that I was an anti-Marxist and I believed the Clintons were going to leave us with neither a Republic nor a Constitution. So while I was back in the US, he signed me up, got me going, and the rest is history. I have considered it a great blessing to know that there were others who fervently loved our country and our Constitution. Getting to interact with people of other faiths as well as Catholics was a big added bonus. I also found FR had some of the most articulate exponents of the Orthodox Christian faith -- and I value that highly, posters like FormerLib, Wordsmith, and The Reader David.

[constitutiongirl]

Koine is also a dead language, as was Hebrew until recently. You're relying on translations from the Greek that were translated centuries from the original. The closer the translation to the originating era, the closer the translation will be to the orignal. For instance, if I told you 'You look gay' in 2002, anyone overhearing would assume I was implying that you look like a homosexual. If I told you the same thing in 1892, they would assume I meant you look happy. Languages evolve like cultures. A translator, working from the Greek in 300 A.D. would have a more correct 'feel' of the language and its context than a translator today. Koine was descriptive and precise but does not have the sheer number of adjectives as English. That allows an English translator quite a bit of personal license, especially when working from fragmented texts. The precision of Koine makes it difficult to not accept Real Presence. When Jesus says phago (eat) He means, literally, eat. In fact, it was so literal that when He said it in the synagogue, many of His followers had hard time accepting it (going against Levitcal law) and left. I've had others tell me that the passage in John refers to people leaving Jesus because he stated that God would set them apart to Him. That is taking the entire passage out of context. A Hebrew would have no difficulty believing that God would set them apart for Himself, they already had proof of that by their very existence. What was foreign to their minds and disturbing enough to cause them to walk away was that the Lord was telling them they must eat His flesh and drink His blood to have eternal life.

[Ard Ri]

All I know, Havoc, is that you seem to go out of your way to denigrate the teachings of a Faith that others hold dear, while I`m certain you wouldn`t stand for such conduct if it was pointed in your direction. You`d be fast out of the gate to condemn a Catholic who would DARE to denigrate your Faith in such a manner, I`m sure. And, your reply to Colleen about praying to some St. Ethos was childish and didn`t do much to advance your position. What we Catholics believe in is Intercessory Prayer. Not alot different from my asking for a friend or loved one to intercede on my behalf. I`m off to work now, but will attempt to further explain intercessory prayer later.

[Havoc]

I have written what I have written.

So, you can't defend it, you just preach it to the congregation because it sounds warm and fuzzy. Is that it?

[ventana]

You know what Havoc. You are just a nut. Seriously.

The original Greek uses agapao. It means Love and nothing else. Why are you always claiming to have read "The Greek" as if it's some hidden treasure that provides you with an automatic rebuttal for anything an RC might say? It's easily available, so much so that it would have been easier to check your facts than to lambast. Further, the good Father would have no reason to lie, nor future if he did.

[pegleg]

If Paul had gone directly against the word of Christ, he to would have been wrong, but he didn't of course, and he had never read the book of Matthew at the time, unlike you have.

So was Paul going against the word of Christ when he wrote this?

"I do not write this to make you ashamed, but to admonish you as my beloved children. For though you have countless guides in Christ, you do not have many fathers. For I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel" (1 Cor. 4:14–15).

[DouglasKC]

To unpack this, I would want to begin with the word "command" and the word "commandments" and how they relate to the Hebrew word "torah" and the understand of God's commandments as "Teaching" or "Instruction" rather than legal code.
I normally read the New Testament in Arabic because of my work. For example, in the Arabic translation of "Joh 14:21 He who has My commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves Me. And he who loves Me shall be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will reveal Myself to him." if I were to translate back into English it would read

That's an interesting way to interpet. But with the passage I quoted from Romans:

Rom 13:9 For: "Do not commit adultery; do not murder; do not steal; do not bear false witness; do not lust;" and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this word, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself."

There is no question as to what the word translated "commandment" is referring to. No ambiguity. Paul defines love for your neighbor as consisting of those commandments of God. You gotta agree with that... :-)

[malakhi]

Interesting, thanks!

[malakhi]

When Jesus says phago (eat) He means, literally, eat.

Are you suggesting that Jesus taught in Koine Greek? That seems unlikely to me, given that the everyday language of Judea at the time was Aramaic.

[biblewonk]

Everything said to Mary relates to Our Lord. You seem to have an aversion to hierarchy. Every good person equates to the most heroic? The least in the kingdom of heaven is indeed greater than the mighty of the earth, but in heaven there are those of who are, through the quality of their lives, closer to God. They do not cease to care for us, however, now that they are with God. Or so we think. You, or at least some of you, espouse the dogma that they are dead to the world until the Second Coming. Don't buy that.

Jesus is the truth. Nothing said about Mary that is not truth in any way relates to the Lord. Anything, no matter how pretty or flowery it sounds that is not truth, especially things of eternity, is of Satan. You think that in glorifying Mary you Glorify Jesus but that is not the case at all. It it were then He would have told us.

So is she omnipresent? No. But can she or any other saint or angel seem to us to be acting in multiple places simultaneously? Yes.

Did you ever prove this? Scripturally that is.

I'm not getting any response on this question at all.

[constitutiongirl]

No, but the apostle that wrote the book wrote what he said in Koine. If one comes to the book thinking it's paraphrased, then how can one take 'the red letters' literally?

[al_c]

Hello, anyone out there?

There've already been a couple of days like that. I panicked for a while until someone actually responded. ;o)

[father_elijah]

So, you can't defend it, you just preach it to the congregation because it sounds warm and fuzzy. Is that it?

In a word, No.

There is no need of defense. The virtue of obedience is secondary to the Lord's new commandment to Love as he loved us.

[father_elijah]

There is no question as to what the word translated "commandment" is referring to. No ambiguity. Paul defines love for your neighbor as consisting of those commandments of God. You gotta agree with that... :-)

Actually, there is a lot of room to debate how you read the word "commandment" in Greek. For example, one can take the use of the word in the Septuagint and then look at its use in the Pauline Epistles and then relate this to the root Hebrew/Jewish understanding of Torah. I've already touched on this earlier on this thread.

[al_c]

Here's what set me off. If you're too much of a coward to call your own on their infractions don't bother posting to me. I've enjoyed our conversation in the past. But don't single me out. If you're gonna police the threads do it righteously.

I didn't see that comment. If I had, I certainly would have said something. Knowing your background, I'd say that was a cheap shot. Nothing cowardly about what I did ... after you said something, I did address the others. I did not mean to single anyone out. I'm sorry if it came across that way.

Let's get back to our otherwise enjoyable conversations, shall we? Looks like the Stars are dead in the water now. Lost to LA 3-0 last night. No post season for the Stars. :o(

[al_c]

And pedaphilia is? Not cheap in the least bit. If my pastor was criminally involved I'd be out of there in a heartbeat. You claim the whole of catholicism so it doesn't matter whether or not your local priest is involved or not. In other words, if you're comfortable and have been comfortable despite years of your organization covering up crime, don't be surprised if I'm a bit suspect about your judgement on what's christian behavior or what isn't. Capiche?

Pedophilia is a sin ... plain and simple. And it's a crime that the perps should be punished for. I never said I was comfortable with the cover ups. All I said was it's not good Christian behavior to take cheap shots at memebers of the RCC over the issue. I'm hoping that the onslaught of charges against priests lately will finally be the last straw and the the RCC will clean house. I used the Dallas Diocese as an example of that, not as an excuse to remove myself from the other dioceses that are in the hot seat now. If you remember, Dallas had it's own problem a few years ago with Rudy Koss. He is now in jail, the diocese took a major financial hit that we, the congregation, ended up having to pay, and they have now put in some serious checks and balances to ensure that this doesn't happen again. I hope that the other dioceses will look to Dallas as a model.

[Invincibly Ignorant]

I didn't see that comment. If I had, I certainly would have said something. Knowing your background, I'd say that was a cheap shot. Nothing cowardly about what I did ... after you said something, I did address the others. I did not mean to single anyone out. I'm sorry if it came across that way. Let's get back to our otherwise enjoyable conversations, shall we? Looks like the Stars are dead in the water now. Lost to LA 3-0 last night. No post season for the Stars. :o(

Thanx Al. Sorry I got a little hot headed with you yesterday. I was a little mad. You happened to walk in at a bad time. :-) Oh well you've still got a recent stanley cup to fall back on. I am going to make one more comment regarding the fiasco in the Catholic church. I'd like you to respond. It seems to me nothing was going to be done about it until the "liberal media with an ungodly agenda" began to expose what was going on. If the media wouldn't have jumped all over it I can't help but think that it would have continued to be swept under the rug.

[DouglasKC]

There is no question as to what the word translated "commandment" is referring to. No ambiguity. Paul defines love for your neighbor as consisting of those commandments of God. You gotta agree with that... :-)
Actually, there is a lot of room to debate how you read the word "commandment" in Greek. For example, one can take the use of the word in the Septuagint and then look at its use in the Pauline Epistles and then relate this to the root Hebrew/Jewish understanding of Torah. I've already touched on this earlier on this thread.

Okay. Let me try this another way.

Rom 13:9 For: "Do not commit adultery; do not murder; do not steal; do not bear false witness; do not lust;" and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this word, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself."

Exo 20:14 You shall not commit adultery.
Exo 20:13 You shall not kill.
Exo 20:15 You shall not steal
Exo 20:16 You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
Exo 20:17 You shall not covet...

Is it just coincidence that Paul happens to list the last 5 commandments of the decalogue here?

There is no other context that "commandment" could possibly be referring to.

There's no shame in admitting that Paul was correct. The bible has proved me wrong more times than I can count.