The Neverending Story (The Christian Chronicles)

Associated Press ^ | 3/24/01

[malakhi]

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.

Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams

Previous Thread

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Nobody's judging you, Becky. We're just dicussing more of our differences of beliefs. Carry on. :o)

Its funny too, when you get the women folk talking about having babys ya can't get them to shut up, but if you ever had a baby come out sideways like Becky did, to hear her tell it, well it puts a whole another light on it. :)

BigMack

[malakhi]

Let me ask a question this way - how may one be open to procreation?

First, be married. Second, have kids, or at least try to have kids, sometime during your reproductive years.

[The Grammarian]

2 Thes 3:15. Stand firm then, in the traditions you have been taught, whether by word or by my epistle.

I notice that neither the KJV or NLT say this. 2 Thes. 3:15 in the KJV is "Yet count him not as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother." In the NLT, "Don't think of them as enemies, but speak to them as you would to a Christian who needs to be warned." I checked the NRSV too, and it says words to the same effect.

Verse 14 seems to be what you're thinking of, which states (NRSV): "Take note of those who do not obey what we say in this letter; have nothing to do with them, so that they may be ashamed." Even then, I went to the Greek text, and it doesn't support your notion that we are to "stand firm in the traditions..." The KJV, NRSV and NLT all line up with the Greek text. So what translation are you using? New American Bible?

[malakhi]

Well, Mack has said that one of the great things about this forum is that it's not like Sunday coffee hour.

What, you don't have discussions like this in your church? ;o)

[Havoc]

Are you saying that martyrs aren't saints?

Excuse me. Did you read it or just respond as though you have?

Explain how one is guilty of the blood of a saint if they be not a martyr.

If one is guilty of the blood, one has either murdered one - in which case they have martyred a saint. Or they are guilty of having had the saint martyred, in which case another has martyred them; but, the first is still guilty of their blood only as they did not actually commit the deed.

If I take a pot and break it, I am guilty both of the taking and the breaking. If I order another to take the pot and break it, I am guilty of both though I did not break it. The actual deed was done by another.

Thus if I order the murder of a saint, I didn't martyr them; but I'm still guilty of their murder. If I actually martyr them, I own the martyrdome and am guilty of murder. Straight forward. Unless you try to be obtuse about it.

[Invincibly Ignorant]

I feel like I need to go home and take a shower after that last topic. Whew. ;^)

I bet Mack and Becky took a laptop into the shower. :-)

[Wordsmith]

I feel like I need to go home and take a shower after that last topic.

Alone, I'm sure... ;)

[malakhi]

No, once before. You asked too many questions about foreplay and if every session has to end in coitus then too. ;-)

Really? I have no recollection of that. I'll have to look it up to see what I said!

[Havoc]

The foundation of everything I say is my relationship with Jesus Christ, our Living Lord and Savior.

Then perhaps you'll do us all the favor of presenting scripture to back up what you say?

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

I knew no one was judging ME. But when men sit around and talk about to control pregnancy or not too it's rather amusing. You all don't have a clue. And I don't mean this to sound condesending. There are just a lot of things each married couple should take in to consideration and I believe God is OK with that.

We had to work out having our second child. I didn't really want to but Mack being an only child himself did not want to have an only child. The doctor assured me the second would be easier, he was wrong. But I'm glad I have her.

Becky

[malakhi]

Is all I have to say on the contraception issue is I have 2 children, I was fruitful and multiplied. I also spent 18 months puking morning, noon, and night, high blood pressure, pre-eclampsia, and c-sections. I was/am not having any more kids. If you have never been there don't judge. Enough said:)

Yes Ma'am! ;o)

[IMRight]

The distincion you made to me came down to whether it was the blood ot saints or the blood of martyrs. Therefore the distincion only holds water is martyrs are not saints.

What is your source for this distinction of "guilty of the blood"? I'm not disagreeing with it necessarily. I'm just not familiar with your distinction.

[ksen]

What, you don't have discussions like this in your church? ;o)

Didn't you post an article awhile back about some synagogue in California inviting a porn star in to discuss sex?

-Kevin

[malakhi]

Ok, you ready to continue that discussion on the Sermon on the Mount tomorrow? ;^)

Sure, time permitting. (I have to get some work done this week!) Where did we leave off?

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Its about time for a picture of some sperm don't ya think?

BigMack

[Fury]

What then becomes the issue is whether anything you state out of hand as tradition is proveable in scripture - so far it's been shown that is not the case and decidedly so. It's not a matter of interpretation. It's a matter of playing smorgesboard with the scripture - picking and choosing what you'll believe and leaving the rest as though it is of no import. The danger there is that you are responsible for all of it whether you choose to believe any of it at all. As I've said time and again - Jesus stated that the Word will judge you in the end - not tradition, not what you choose to believe of philosophy, not your logical constructs, and not your man made doctrines - the Word.

Yes, Christ did say the word will judge us. But you conviently ignore what was also said in regards to tradition and of words not specifically spoken:

I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you - 1 Cor 11:2

Follow the pattern of the sound words which you have heard from me, in the faith and love which are in Christ Jesus; guard the truth that has been entrusted to you by the Holy Spirit who dwells within us - 2 Tim 1:13-14

First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, because no prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God - 2 Peter 1:20-21

Many other signs also did Jesus in the sight of his disciples, which are not written in this book. But these are written, that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God: and that believing, you may have life in his name - John 20: 30-31

Thou therefore, my son, be strong in Christ Jesus: And the things which thou hast heard of me by many witnesses, the same commend to faithful men who shall be fit to teach others also - 2 Tim 2:2 (DRB)

So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter - 2 Thess 2:15 (DRB)

What do you think Paul was saying there? That much of what Christians are and will be taught is to be handed down by word of mouth - tradition.

What has been presented by Catholics as tradition on TNS and been proved in Scripture is here for folks to see. And for some reason, that makes you mad.

[ksen]

I bet Mack and Becky took a laptop into the shower. :-)

LOL! ;^)

-Kevin

[Fury]

Then perhaps you'll do us all the favor of presenting scripture to back up what you say?

Please live up to your expectations of others and provide references when you are asked for them. Thank you...

[malakhi]

Also, as angelo frequently reminds us, Judaism is Matrilinial

Well, to be technical Jewishness is matrilineal. Kingship and tribal affiliation was patrilineal.

[Wordsmith]

You all don't have a clue.

That's what my wife tells me too. Our 3 boys are each 3 years apart, the youngest is 3, she said she never wanted anymore after 35 and she's 34. So it's been a hot topic. But basically she's decided the matter by saying that no more babies are coming out of that body. She also told me I had to buy her another horse instead. :)