Posted on 03/30/2002 7:53:37 PM PST by malakhi
1 Corinthians 3:11
For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ.
Ergo, Jesus Christ is the foundation.
That’s refreshing to hear from a Catholic, or did you have exceptions in mind?
But you conviently ignore what was also said in regards to tradition and of words not specifically spoken:
I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you - 1 Cor 11:2
Paul said thank you for remembering the traditions he gave them, not traditions they picked up from a friend or a relative.
Follow the pattern of the sound words which you have heard from me, in the faith and love which are in Christ Jesus; guard the truth that has been entrusted to you by the Holy Spirit who dwells within us - 2 Tim 1:13-14
Again, Paul told them to follow the sound words which he gave them, and in doing so, they were trusting in the Holy Spirit with in themselves.
First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, because no prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God - 2 Peter 1:20-21
Peter said, that no “prophesy” is a matter of ones private interpretation” this is talking about “prophesy”, not interpreting scripture.
No man can properly explain prophesy unless God reveals it to him.
Many other signs also did Jesus in the sight of his disciples, which are not written in this book. But these are written, that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God: and that believing, you may have life in his name - John 20: 30-31
The disciples witnessed many other signs, but if they don’t tell you what they were, you will never know them. Who else was a disciple of Christ, that told us anything that wasn’t written in the scripture?
Thou therefore, my son, be strong in Christ Jesus: And the things which thou hast heard of me by many witnesses, the same commend to faithful men who shall be fit to teach others also - 2 Tim 2:2 (DRB)
I don’t get it Fury, what don’t you understand? Paul said don’t believe, or teach anything that is claimed to have been said by Paul, unless you have many witnesses back it up.
So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter 2 Thess 2:15 (DRB)
Again, I don’t get it, Paul clearly said the traditions that were taught by us, (the apostles) either verbally or that they wrote in a letter. What’s hard to understand here?
What do you think Paul was saying there? That much of what Christians are and will be taught is to be handed down by word of mouth - tradition.(Only the traditions he gave them, and there is no hint that these traditions could come from anyone other then Paul.)
What has been presented by Catholics as tradition on TNS and been proved in Scripture is here for folks to see. And for some reason, that makes you mad.
Fury, if this is an example of your discerning powers, I can’t wait to see your writings on Peter.
Feel free to go through what I have paraphrased, and correct it with your interpretation.
JH
Show me in scripture where he affected anything but the spiritual. Show me where he appeared on earth while he was dead. He appeared after he arose. After. Thus when he began having anything to do with the things going on under the son in the physical, he was alive again. Just as Lazarus when he was dead at first had nothing to do with the goings on here; but when made alive again, he did. He died the final time and being dead it still holds.
The dead have no more influence on the earth.
The scripture says guilty of the blood of saints and of martyrs, Dave. Shall we quote it again so you can plead that the scriptures are too confusing for you. Being guilty of their blood according to scripture is being guilty in their murder. Being guilty of their martyr means they commited the murder themselves. This isn't rocket science, Dave. But oh how hard it is for the simple things to be understood, praise God.. Only one entity since the time of Christ sat in such a peculiar situation as to make them both guilty of the murder because someone else committed the martyr for them, and guilty of murder because they themselves did the martyring. And that is the Roman Catholic Church as it headed the disintegrating 'Holy Roman Empire.'
How can you come up with this when the Bible says no such thing? When the Bible is silent, shouldn't you be silent too? Or do you use something in addition to the Bible in order to divine that Lazarus when dead had nothing to do with "the goings on here"? It seems according to your method, that you should refrain from these kinds of imagining which cannot be proven precisely with the warrant of Scripture.
Prove it in scripture.
To put it another way, "Once in the grave, CHRIST DID ..." And so do His followers.
No no no. Sorry, Read the Gospels. Christ didn't appear again to have any part in what was going on here on earth until After he rose again from the grave. And He is still alive. Which is precisely why Christ Can affect what goes on here on earth to this day - aside from the divinity of God of course.
See how that all weaves together tightly. God didn't chuck the OT nor it's truths, or anything else. He didn't do away with them, he fullfilled them - ie proved them.
The scripture says guilty of the blood of saints and of martyrs, Dave. Shall we quote it again so you can plead that the scriptures are too confusing for you. Being guilty of their blood according to scripture is being guilty in their murder. Being guilty of their martyr means they commited the murder themselves. This isn't rocket science, Dave. But oh how hard it is for the simple things to be understood, praise God.. Only one entity since the time of Christ sat in such a peculiar situation as to make them both guilty of the murder because someone else committed the martyr for them, and guilty of murder because they themselves did the martyring. And that is the Roman Catholic Church as it headed the disintegrating 'Holy Roman Empire.'
I will give $20 American cash to anybody who can tell me what Havoc is talking about. Anybody. Anyone at all. All you have to do is explain how Havoc is making the distinction that only the "Holy Roman Empire" is guilty of killing both martyrs and saints, which is what he originally said.
It would also be refreshign if Havoc qould actually lower himself to answr a question put to him. Any question. Any one at all.
$20. Cash. Please explain it to me. Anyone?
SD
You're a great moderator, Angelo - thanks for all that you're doing. As regards objectivity - well, of course you're right, too, "that should be simple enough to check."
Happy Easter to everybody. Hope your Thomas and Divine Mercy Sunday was great!
Reggie yesterday accused me and my kind of contributing to the current scandals. I typed this in to show him exactly how deeply wrong his attempt to associate the conservative Christians with the current American leadership is.
I shall be out until sometime tomorrow afternoon. I hope we can discuss this article.
The Desolate City: Life Amidst the Ruins
By Fr. Joseph F Wilson
…There really is no need for me to rehearse the sordid facts of this scandal. The secular press has revealed a great deal, The Wanderer coverage has been excellent, and frankly, we have only just begun: This is going to get worse, and worse, and worse.
It is a terribly depressing, demoralizing situation. An archbishop who, over the course of his 18-year administration of a major see, presided over a travesty in which a sexual predator was repeatedly reassigned and found new victims insists, as of this writing, that thehealing of his archdiocese necessarily involves that he stick around to continue presiding. A bishop who was assigned to replace a predecesso who had been emoved for sexual scandal is himself found to be a sexual offender.
The bishops are clearly aware that they have a problem, but one suspects that they think it is bad publicity. Nobody anywhere, as far as I can see, seriously thinks the bishops would be dealing with this clergy sex abuse situation were it not for the heinous publicity. Yet the bishops are surprised at the ferocity of the public reaction; I think they may actually wonder why everyone is mad at them. The lay faithful are scandalized, the clergy demoralized, the Church’s enemies have their darkest suspiciions confirmed.
…
If I might make a suggestion, it would be this: Anyone in the Church who is in a position – whether archbishop, bishop, provincial, personnel director, pastor, principal, director of religious education – anyone holding such a position who has been part of the problem in terms of how these matters have been mishandled needs to resign.
…
Not to realize that this is what is called for is evidence of a breathtaking personal impoverishment. ... That should go without saying, but evidently it does not, and so I just said it. Get the hell out of the way!
…
A fever is a sign that the body is fighting the infection. These terrible abuses have been going on for years and years, quietly, insiduously, under the surface. People were hurt, the innocence of the young corrupted, lives were ruined, families torn apart and the Church was often unresponsive, for generations. Indeed, as I review the sentences I have just penned, I realize that the truth is even worse than that. These things have not exactly happened “under the surface.” Faithful readers of the Wanderer, for example, have read stories and stories like them for 40 years, week after week. To pretend that these and other abuses could go on for so long because they flew under the Church’s radar would be dishonest. So much of this appeared in print already, and was met with indifference.
Nor does this scandal of clergy sexual abuse exist in a vacuum. It takes its place quite neatly among a host of other problems which characterize the Church’s life in the year of our Lord 2002. Forty years ago we dismantled an extremely effectiver method of catechesis, the handing on of the faith from generation to generation. We replaced it with coloring books, rap sessions, freethinking, freewheeling, and finger painting, and that is not an exaggeration. At least two generations of Catholics have grown up almost entirely ignorant of Catholic doctrine, and securely in possession of a do-it-yourself morality.
…
All of these problems are on display for the Church to see, and have been there for two generations, and not only has there been no effective effort to address them, there has been no attempt to effectively address them. The Pope himself can, and has, written exhortations pointing out abuses in the liturgy which need to be corrected, directed that a searching evaluation of American seminaries and religious communities be carried out ... (author’s elipsis -SD) and the seed of his directives fell stillborn on the rocky soil of this AmChurch, our American Church, for our leadership was totally uninterested in shepherding an authentic renewal.
…
Each year, November will still come, and nature will start to die; the days will grow cold, and short, and dark, leaves will fall off trees, bushes will shrivel, the ground grow hard, birds will fly to more hospitable climes, the winds blow cold and sharp, and we will know that the bishops are gathering for their annual November meeting.
…
Let them meet, let them deliberate, let them publish position papers on whatever they care to, enlighten the Western world on the economy, and peace, and racism, and add another 12 volumes to the Lectionary, and eliminate more holy days, and solemnly authorize us to high-five each other at the sign of peace. Whatever they choose to do is so utterly beside the point that out best refuge from the anger they might provoke within us is hilarity at such idiocy.
I did not decree their irrelevance; they did. It was not our decision that they would do absolutely nothing, over two generations, to address the problems afflicting our beloved Church.
…
We mustn’t lose heart. The raging fever is the sign that the body is fighting the infection. This is a moment of grace, a moment of hope; it is only when we are brought low, made mindful of our need for God, that authentic renewal can come about. He has told us these things so that in Him we may have peace. I this world we will have tribulation, but we must be of good cheer; He has overcome the world. Our good Lord Jesus has overcome the world, and He, our risen Lord, will surely, as He always does, send the saints througn whom He will effect the true renewal.
Here's a great place for you to start studying terms:
Deuteronomy 18:
[9] When thou art come into the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not learn to do after the abominations of those nations.
[10] There shall not be found among you [any one] that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, [or] that useth divination, [or] an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch,
[11] Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.
[12] For all that do these things [are] an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee.
Verse 12 is particularly of interest in that the things these people do are an abomination.
Oh, and you'll want to actually study what they are. Looking them up in a dictionary is like reading the readers digest condensed version - it doesn't tell you everything, most of it, or more than part of it, just gives a summation of the high points. Let me know when you're ready for more.
LOL. Spoken truly like someone who's been here for all of 10 seconds and has some ground of authority to speak from. thank you, I needed some humor.
But again I say, I detest the way you use Scripture as a weapon to beat up on people who already believe in Jesus Christ.
Beat up, not. I just don't stand and take the punishment all the time from those like Dave who attack subtley or blatently and attempt to impugne me in any way they can without going 'too far' - sometimes even doing that; but, hey, we don't make the mark without any scars.
If you want to engage anyone in a real discussion you need to treat them with respect, Havoc. Until that happens your words are worse than hollow.
Respect? You mean like barging into a discussion and throwing about charges as if you knew something - not having all the facts and not bothering to pay any attention to other than what you find upsetting. Respect[ful] like your approach with regard to a certain claimed priest who can say any thing he wants but when charged to back it up determines it best not to. I have enough respect for the mission of God to require people to back up potentially damaging things they say with scripture. When I seek such, I'm the one in the wrong though scripture tells us this is required and even gives us the example of the Bereans as to how we should conduct ourselves in that regard. Methinks you got your priorties screwed up bud. Where's this minister with his defense of what he's said while I stand doing what scripture requires? And why aren't you requiring it of him?
If you want to attack, you should have a proper basis on which to do it that doesn't impugne your character or your name. Your name is the only thing you got that is truly yours. Gaurd it - not of pride but of principle.
Have you made a spectacle enough of yourself Dave? Cause I think we get the picture, you can take your hands off your ears now and stop yelling 'nah, nah, nah, I can't hear you.' Now I'm going to eat..
Mini-popes always want people to pay attention to what they say and do what they want. You don't have the authority, fellowship, or communion to make any demands of anyone whether it is engaging with you on the Scriptures or responding to your rantings the way you want.
I have had ample time to read threads and see what you have been up to. Your demand for Scriptures though is hollow too because you still haven't dealt with the Scriptures Wordsmith provided, and you completely ignored the Scripture I posted that disproved your assertion that the foundation was confession of Christ instead of Christ himself. After reading your mistaken interp. on that, why should anyone want to engage you in Scripture?
For my part, I'm a miserable sinner who depends entirely on the Blood of Christ for salvation. And as a sinner redeemed by the blood of the Lamb, I as yet lack the sanctification to restrain myself from climbing into your pigpen and hurling pods at you after you've been throwing them at others.
Havoc - That's not what the scripture says.
"For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ." KJV 1Cor 3:11
Game, set, match. Shake hands at the net. And please don't tell me that I quoted you out of context. I said clearly "Christ is the foundation" You said equally clearly "no, He isn't". I hope you sleep well tonight....I'm not sure I could with that hanging out there.
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