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And what about the disobedience of the Franciscans? How do you defend that?

The Franciscans are not disobedient. They can only operate in the Medjugorje parish by cooperating with the bishop. There are difficulties and ambiguities in authority (who does what!) in that area of Bosnia between the Franciscans and the secular clergy which have a long history.

Our Lady in Medjugorje calls us to repentance, a return to God and prayer. It is a place where countless thousands have returned to their faith or found a faith they never had.

In the lifetime of the visionaries, they will announce, in advance, significant events that will ultimately authenticate the apparitions. But Our Lady has stated that it will be too late then to start converting.

There is quite a good 'questions and answers' page HERE

The constant and misguided accusations of disobedience by the visionaries and anyone who loves Medjugorje is wearying. I hope I am not breaking any rules on this forum if I paste a little anecdote from one of the visionaries, Mirjana. This item, apart from witnessing to Pope John Paul's love of Medjugorje, also illustrates Mirjana's beautifully humorous nature:

Q: We went on a pilgrimage and we were blessed to stay at your house once and we noticed the Pope’s shoes are in a little display at your house. Can you tell us how Pope John Paul II’s shoes arrived there?

A: I am the only one of 6 visionaries who was lucky enough, had the honor, to encounter Pope John Paul II. You can imagine how the other 5 are jealous of me. [laughter] Jakov always says, “Oh, yea, you have been with Pope...”

I was in the Vatican, St. Peter’s Basilica, with an Italian priest. Holy Father was walking by and he was blessing us. When he approached me, he blessed me and he just continued to walk. However, this Italian priest loudly said to him, "Holy Father, this is Mirjana from Medjugorje." He came back and blessed me again and he set out. And I said to the priest, "He just thinks I need a double blessing." But then after, the priest received a note, an invitation to Castle Gandolfo, close to Rome, in order to encounter the Pope. I couldn’t sleep all night because I really loved him and I respected him and I could really feel his love for Our Lady.

So the next day when the Pope and I met alone, I was just crying. I couldn’t say a word out of excitement. He noticed that I was excited. I think he tried to talk to me in Polish because he thought in the Slavic languages there are things in common. I didn’t understand a word! But I finally had enough strength and courage, I asked him, "What are you trying to tell me?" Then we talked. Among other things he said to me, "I know everything about Medjugorje. I’ve been following Medjugorje. Ask pilgrims to pray for my intentions, to keep, to take good care of Medjugorje, because Medjugorje is hope for the entire world. And if I were not Pope, I would have been in Medjugorje a long time ago."

So recently on the Mount of Apparitions, I saw a pair of shoes of the Pope in front of me, and after the apparition, this gentleman who brought these shoes ( he didn’t introduce himself), he said, "It was the Pope’s desire for a long time to come to Medjugorje. I had said, ‘If you do not go, I will take your shoes.’ And that is how I brought his shoes, so they may be present during the apparition."

The local ordinary is not happy with what's happening at Medjugorje, but I don't believe that he has formally condemned the apparitions either.

That's an understatement. He views them as virtually demonic! Some years ago Cardinal Bertone, who at the time worked at the CDF, issued a letter formally taking away the bishop's authority, stating that the bishop's views were his own personal views. Unfortunately, the current Prefect of the CDF (Cardinal Levada) has rather confused the matter by referring people again to the bishop!

This situation actually illustrates that the whole position of the authority of the local ordinary in these matters is largely one of church 'etiquette' rather than law. There seems to be no canon about discernment of apparitions.

In fact, the quote from the Catechism that you posted is our best guide to how we should proceed with apparition discernment:

Guided by the Magisterium of the Church, the sensus fidelium knows how to discern and welcome in these revelations whatever constitutes an authentic call of Christ or his saints to the Church.

This is what is happening in Medjugorje. The Magisterium of the Church (which is NOT the bishop) has basically offered no guidance at the moment and so the people are making their own discernement which is entirely in keeping with the Catechism's words.

I can well afford to be patient. Private revelations do not change the Deposit of Faith.

No, if you accept for a moment that Medjugorje was authentic, do you think our Lady would have wanted everybody to stay away for 30 years, waiting for the Church to make a decision?

Of course, if you come out in favor of the Bayside affair or the like, you may find at least me a part of that anti-Brigade...

I am pleased to confirm that I do not believe in the authenticity of Bayside.

Based upon your postings, to date, I'm not sure we're not dealing with a "one trick pony" here

Well, I may well be such a pony because when our Lady comes to earth in this remarkable way for such a long time in Medjugorje, it clearly puts things into a particular perspective and discussions about politics lose some of their lustre.

With a grand total of 14 days experience on FR, I don't think you know either AnAmericanMother or me well enough to categorize either of us a member of The anti-Medjugorje brigade or not.

Actually, I believe your postings on this one thread betray your views rather clearly but if I am mistaken I will be delighted!

There are also reports that the "middle" of the letter did not refer to Medjugorje at all.

I went back to Bishop Peric's website and yes, you are right, the Bishop's site itself indicates that the unpublished part of the Cardinal's letter is not connected with Medjugorje.

Is your sole purpose for being on this site to advocate for Medjugorje?

sorry, maybe I have misunderstood and that only anti-Medjugorje posts are allowed on 'Free Republic'?

I've just noticed an earlier comment:

The middle of the letter is private because that is where the personal apology is.

It is this kind of thing that takes my breath away! The middle of the letter is unpublished so THEREFORE that is where the personal apology is? Come on, I'm sure correspondents on the Free Republic are capable of better than that.

I'm sorry if I am coming across as an aggressive type but actually I'm not at all like that but all sense of fair play seems to leave people when the matter of Medjugorje comes up. Oh and yes, it was the posts about Medjugorje which introduced me to the 'Free Republic'. Is that bad?

We have been informed that an apology was made.

ah, that's all right then! The rubbish being spread around the internet about this matter amazes me. I have no doubt whatever that the rumours and the nonsense about the Pope 'dressing down' the Cardinal are TOTALLY without any basis.

Sadly, people are going to continue to believe whatever they want to believe. One thing is fairly sure, however, that following the Cardinal's outspoken support for Medjugorje (and the Cardinal is a member of the CDF), there is little chance of any negative ruling coming from the CDF.

The anti-Medjugorje brigade will, however, no doubt continue to live in hope.....

"I am very sorry that you got the impression that my pilgrimage has disturbed the peace."

Do you call that an apology?? Hardly! It would be nice to see what the Cardinal actually said to Bishop Peric but as the Bishop only wants us to see the beginning and end of the letter we can only surmise as to what he said.

However, we can get a good idea of some of what he will have said to Bishop Peric from part of an interview the Cardinal gave in Germany a week ago:

“The Church is entitled to the last judgment but one thing is for sure: People are experiencing there the help, closeness, and protection of the Mother of God in a special way. And certainly they would not make pilgrimages there for 28 years if there wasn’t anything there. This doesn’t already mean that I am anticipating the decision of the Church but I’m saying distinctly there are fruits there – good fruits – or you could also say there can be no smoke without a fire and in Medjugorje there obviously is a fire.”

Regarding the public criticism by bishop Ratko Peric:

“Of course we can be of different opinion regarding things that have not been ultimately decided yet, and I respect him (the bishop) as a fellow brother. I am united with him in prayer and I also believe that we can both confidently await the decision of the Church and can entrust ourselves to this decision with confidence, without polemics.”

Regarding the bishop’s criticism that the cardinal had not announced himself:

“Of course I could have tried to pay him a visit in Mostar. It is not absolutely necessary and before me there have been many bishops in Medjugorje. We know that he has a somewhat different opinion here. I want to avoid polemics. For me it is not about being proved correct against him, but I certainly have not violated the right that is also the right of a bishop and cardinal.”

• The programme Orientierung in which cardinal Schönborn gave his interview was transmitted on ORF2, Sunday, January 10, 2010.

In the light of the posting of Bishop Peric's full response to Cardinal Sconborn's visit to Medjugorje, I thought it would be appropriate to copy the Cardinal's views on the matter:

____________________________________________________
From Vecernji List daily newspaper for Croatia, Bosnia and Herzegovina (January 4, 2010)

Medjugorje is again in the center of attention, church and public as well. Though the visit of Cardinal Shonborn is private, it did not leave anybody indifferent because he is the member of Congregation for Doctrine of Faith. We talked to Cardinal while he was visiting Medjugorje.

We came here to be close to the Lord’s mother, you said during the Christmas Eve Mass, Your Eminence. These words had a great echo. We would like you to explain them?

Cardinal: We cannot deny that pilgrims have been coming over here for the past 20 years, as we can not deny what they experience in Medjugorje and how close they feel to the Blessed Mother. This is my first visit, but since I’ve been a Bishop since 1991. I have simply noticed the fruits of Medjugorje.

Interviewer: What kind of fruits are you talking about?

Cardinal: I will give you couple of examples: vocation calls for priesthood. Lots of our young priests have received their vocation call here, but not strictly in Medjugorje but because of Medjugorje. The second thing is conversions. I am impressed that that happens in every level of society, from noble families, industrials down to the common little people. Flying from Vienna, via Zagreb to Split I was asked by a security guard where I was going and I told him I was going to Medjugorje. All of sudden his face started shining and he told me that he had his conversion in Medjugorje as well. Couple of weeks ago on one small railway station one worker told me his story. His wife died of cancer and he was desperate and his friends brought him to Medjugorje. He has received the strong and living faith over here. The third evidence is the healings. A young man who was addicted to drugs told me that he was almost forced by his friends over here. He told me while the bus was entering to Medjugorje something happened with him. Especially he was healed immediately and all of us know how long that healing lasts. The fourth evidence is the prayer groups. I’ve known this Medjugorje Prayer Group from Vienna since the period when I wasn’t the Bishop. I’ve known them since 1980’s. To us Dominicans it was very meaningful that these people pray for hours and their church is always full. The Dominican churches in Vienna are rarely so full, on Thursday nights the church was always full. They stayed faithful to the prayer till today. Jesus said that the bad tree doesn’t bear any fruits. Which means: if the fruits are good than the tree is good as well.

Interviewer: For pilgrims Medjugorje is a miracle and they expect a message from the Holy See until Official Church would approve the supernatural events of Medjugorje. It has been speculated a period of time about the movements of Holy See. What do you know about this and what is your opinion about the demands to recognize Medjugorje?

Cardinal: I do not have detailed information about this matter and that is not my assignment. But I am standing to the statement made by Bishop’s Conference of Yugoslavia and Congregation for Doctrine of Faith of the Holy See. That statement for me has always been reasonable and smart. I will remind you about three statements made about Medjugorje. The first of all are phenomena. I am dogmatist and I was a professor of theological dogma. Non constat de supernaturalitate.- which means that the Church hasn’t given the final judgment about supernaturality of phenomena and hasn’t given any statements. So it has never denied or confirmed.

Interviewer: This sounds as diplomatic answer, what this really means in the practice?

Cardinal: It simply means that the Church hasn’t given its final judgment and decision. I am personally convinced that this is correct. While these phenomena are still going on, the Church is hardly going to give or make its final judgment and decision. These phenomena are the center of Medjugorje. It has started with the children who said that they saw Our Lady and the messages she gave through them. What has developed from that is second phenomena which will be studied by the church on the second level. From the very beginning a huge number of pilgrims have been coming to Medjugorje. The intensive prayer life has developed here and many humanitarian organizations have been born here.

Interviewer: The Church has divided the matter of Medjugorje from the pastoral work. But still a large number of pilgrims come over here. What position we should take about this matter?

Cardinal: The concrete ways of pilgrimages have been over here and that is a practical challenge for the church. That’s why the bishops from ex Yugoslavia said in 1991 that the official pilgrimages shouldn’t exist. I do not want and I cannot organize official pilgrimages to Medjugorje in my diocese as we did to Rome or Holy Land. But the Bishops Conference or Rome have never forbidden to pilgrims to come to Medjugorje, which is the main part of the third statement. For us Bishops, for me this is very important. The believers must get the pastoral care. As the Archbishop I see my homework in that. If I, as a bishop, see that in my diocese hundreds, thousands of believers convert, pray, and are healed then I, as a Bishop, must take care that all of them get that pastoral care. That’s why I supported all these things as for example community of the Oasis of Peace, which was started because of Medjugorje. I think that all of this has influence on us bishops, especially those dioceses which pilgrims do come to Medjugorje and they need to get good pastoral care. So in all of those conversations I had with other bishops about Medjugorje I encouraged them to support their pilgrims.

Interviewer: You had a meeting with a visionary, you climbed to the Apparition Hill. What were you talking about?

Cardinal: I would say ironically that Our Lady did not choose the simple hills. I am fascinated with the coherence of Medjugorje with other Marian shrines, apparition sites. I always say that there is a grammar of Mary’s apparitions. That style has something special with Our Lady.

Interviewer: In what way is this connected?

Cardinal: There are 3 elements which are connected with this phenomenon. Almost always Our Lady appears to children. Those were not especially intelligent children or holy children but normal. Bernadette did not know how to write. She was 14 almost as children over here. Secondly, Mary gives the messages through the children. It is insulting for one bishop. Why Our Lady does not come to bishop’s house? Why does she come to the hill filled with stones or by the river? This is not practical. In Fatima she appeared in the bushes. She gives the messages through children because children are not complicated. The third element: it looks like that Our Lady has her own program. In Fatima she had appeared before Russian Revolution and she gave a message. When rationalism was on its highest level she appeared in Lourdes. She appeared in Yugoslavia in the moment when we did not have an idea that Yugoslavia would fall apart in the time when the Catholics, Muslims and Orthodox were living together. She appears with the name Queen of Peace. 10 years after that the first of 4 wars on Balkan Peninsula brakes out. And her first message was peace through conversion, prayer and this first message has its weight, strength, credibility. Maybe we could go further to Guadalupe, Mexico. When Europe started invasion of America, Our Lady appeared to one Indian who had to go to his bishop to tell him what to do. I think that theologians have to study the syntax of Mary’s apparitions and in that context to study the phenomena of Medjugorje.

Interviewer: It is prayed for peace in Medjugorje all the time but the political peace is not correct, the state is in problems and the Croats Catholics are in the worst position. What would you suggest to the International Community which is run now in this country by your co-citizen Valentin Inzko?

Cardinal: The problem over here is that too many countries are involved in this such a small country which that way cannot over come these problems. The long lasting peace can be formed only if everything is just for everybody. This is a challenge for European policy. I am happy that Valentin Inxko is now in charge of Bosnia and Herzegovina and I expect that he gets a bigger support from European community. I am sure that (this) what is going on Medjugorje supports that peace. And people from all over the world do come to this small village Herzegovina which has never been known in the world, if I want to speak ironically. Look, how many Koreans come to Medjugorje! This is a hope that these people will be apostles of peace in their countries, peace which comes from Medjugorje. If it is prayed for peace in the world on one place, than that is a special blessing for one country. And Our Lady respects all three religions. Orthodox believers honor Our Lady, Islam doesn’t respect any other person that much, but Mary. For Croats Catholics who are minority in this country the apparitions among them are the great comfort.

I am just adding here a link to a good, balanced, secular view of the Schonborn matter: http://blogs.reuters.com/faithworld/

I'm looking at it as a seminarian, and, if God so wills it, a future priest - and so I can't really do anything but edge toward what might be considered the "party line."

Thank you for this reply and I can understand your difficult position when, sadly, there seems to me to be such a 'desire' to view Medjugorje negatively on the part of many in the hierarchy.

I remain strongly of the view that Cardinal Schonborn's intervention is important as there had been an increasing 'drift' in news about Medjugorje to present it negatively.

You can view a rather well balanced report on the Schonborn matter in the latest Catholic Herald in the UK. The link is:
http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/articles/a0000720.shtml

Dear friend,

I hope I am not going to sound too patronising here but you come across as a well meaning person. However, you are viewing things from a legalistic standpoint as if assessing arguments in a law court.

We are dealing here with a matter of enormous importance. Millions of people have responded to apparent graces from God being poured on mankind in an unprecedented way. Jesus has sent his Mother to earth to change people's hearts so that they turn to Him. His action is one of LOVE and all who have heard about the apparitions will, one day, stand before God and one of the things we will be asked to reflect on is how we responded to what we heard. Did we respond with love, or hatred, or fear, or in a disinterested way. We can lie to ourselves in this life but when we stand before God we will not be able to lie. We will KNOW which of the above was our reaction.

The apparitions have been occurring for over 25 years. The Church hierarchy have made no decisions about the authenticity. Do you think God wants Catholics to stay at home waiting for the hierarchy to decide for them whether the apparitions are authentic??

When Jesus came to earth 2000 years ago, did He expect people to wait for the priests to decide whether He was the Messiah or not?

I know none of this will impress you but it is the only valid way I can respond to your last posting.

God bless you.

Good things have happened at/because of Medjugorje. That doesn't make it authentic, though it doesn't make it false either. Disobedience toward the local Ordinary, and disobedience toward the Pope is most certainly, however, a bad fruit.

Jesus said "by their fruits you shall know them" and that is always going to be the test of Truth. I repeat, the good fruits of Medjugorje are overwhelming. Anyone who investigates Medjugorje with a good spirit will confirm that situation.

There has been absolutely NO disobedience towards the Pope at any time. The evidence that Pope John Paul II was very supportive of Medjugorje is very strong. The visionaries and the Franciscans try their best to obey the Bishop at all times but there are ambiguities in matters of authority between the Franciscans and the secular clergy in the area.

I hope the matter is dealt with swiftly (and hope that a public apology by Cdl. Schonborn is sufficient to remedy the problem).

This comment fairly takes my breath away!! Cardinal Schonborn's visit has been an important contribution on the difficult path of the Church hierarchy developing a correct and proper attitude to the events in Medjugorje. We do not know what difficulties will yet arise but eventually, the Church leaders will come to recognize that in Medjugorje, Our Lady has been appearing in an unprecedented way in order to help rejuvenate a dying world.

Besides this, no formal judgment can be made until the apparitions cease

Absolutely, so the various activities of Bishop Peric which try to tell the world that everything is false in Medjugorje are very much out of order. This is why the Vatican some years ago (through Cardinal Bertone) felt it necessary to point out the that the views of the Bishop were his own and not those of the Vatican.

what is your evidence that Bishop Peric denies all Marian apparitions? I have not heard that before.

The best response I can make is that I have been told this by 'usually reliable sources' but I accept that this information might turn out to be inaccurate.

Wrong. And this is the last information I will give you.

Not sure what this is a reply to.

I see you have not been able to quote me a canon law saying the local bishop has authority over apparition judgements, so here is another common error you were trying to push.

Like I said, your money. Good luck with that..

Thank you, but I'm not aware of spending any money......

Bu-bye!.

Bye-bye Mr (or Ms) 'netmilsmom'.

"Bishop Ratko Peric said there is nothing supernatural going on there. Actually, under canon law, the local Bishop or Ordinary has the investigative authority over such event in his Diocese."

I'm always ready to be enlightened by intelligent people like yourself but I think you will struggle to find ANY canon law that states what you state above. It has certainly become good 'etiquette' to pass investigations on to the local bishop but, for good reason, there seems to be no actual canon law about this.

You don't seem to be a lover of humility.... Are you actually a Christian?

"Be gone troll"

Charming indeed!

I see you feel no need to apologize for trying to suggest that the Cardinal was a liberal who was in favour of contraception.

The good fruits of Medjugorje are so overwhelming that it shouldn't need a prominent Cardinal's support to make it more accepted, yet Bishop Peric's disbelief in ALL apparitions of Our Lady (including Fatima and Lourdes) probably does need some counterbalancing from the hierarchy to make Catholics think twice before following the Bishop's guidance.

"Your Cardinal is disobeying the Vatican"

As Cardinal Schonborn is a member of the CDF then the Vatican has clearly got problems!

In response to the false criticism of Cardinal Schonborn above, may I quote the following from a liberal magazine a year ago:
CARDINAL SCHONBORN, Austria's oldest member of the clergy, has condemned his predecessors for not speaking out against birth control. After the publication of the encyclical Humanae Vitae which denounced contraceptive use, many bishops conferences reminded Catholics that they could rely on their individual conscience when it came to contraceptive use. Schonborn saw these actions as cowardly and suggested that those bishops were "frightened of the press and of being misunderstood by the faithful."

It is clear now that the 'anti-Medjugorje' brigade will try to portay the good Cardinal as some kind of 'liberal' who can be discounted, whereas, as chairman of the group responsible for the Catechism of the Catholic Church, he is a central and important figure in the Church hierarchy, one whose endorsement of Medjugorje is of critical importance.