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Posts by Diocletian

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  • Balkan Basket Case

    02/11/2009 6:18:36 PM PST · 97 of 113
    Diocletian to maher
    Why did the following Serbian Chetniks flee alongside the Germans?

    Dobrosav Jevdjevic, Momcilo Djujic, Brane Bogunovic (KIA), Uros Drenovic, Pavle Djurisic (KIA).

  • Balkan Basket Case

    02/11/2009 6:15:33 PM PST · 96 of 113
    Diocletian to maher
    Chronology without dates is what U peddle.

    Would you like me to start a new thread will all the documented sources? It's up to you.

    The date of the Mihailovic-Tito WANTED poster is 21 July 1943.

    I'm aware of that. It doesn't change the fact that Mihailovic (and his forces in Sumadija specifically) slid into collaboration after that date.

    Operation Halyard q.v. - From 9-10 August 1944 the first rescue of Allied airmen, was executed by Mihailovic and the OSS. Rescued fliers were 241 USAAF, 6 RAF, 12 Russians, 4 French, 9 Italians. Subsequent rescue missions were conducted by Mihailovic’s Chetniks and OSS under the nose of the Germans in occupied Serbia (Pranjani) from an airstrip improvised on a cow pasture. Operation Halyard was shut down by the OSS on 27 December 1944. The Red Army was already in Belgrade.

    In the meantime, Mihailovic played a double game and collaborated with the Germans to gain an advantage against Tito's Partisans.

    In the ranks of the Soviet forces were Croatian Nazis captured at Stalingrad in 1943.

    Croatians weren't Nazis. Nor was the 369th Legion an Ustasha force. It was a Domobran force within the German Wehrmacht. A small fraction of that obliterated force was gang-pressed into a propaganda "Yugoslav" force by the Soviet Red Army.

    The heroes wore snazzy new uniforms and traveled on new GMC trucks suppied by the USA to the USSR. Tito did not de-Nazify his Yugoslavia.

    That's because Yugoslavia wasn't Nazi.

    Croatia was de-Ustashized, however. The killings at Bleiburg and the Death Marches went hand in hand with Tito's statement that "for Yugoslavia to survive, the Ustashe must be destroyed!".

    Croatia’s Nazis simply put on the Red Star

    AN ABSOLUTE LIE.

    FEEL FREE TO NAME ONE USTASHA THAT BECAME A PARTIZAN.

    WHY DID TITO ACCORD AMNESTY TO SERBIAN CHETNIKS THAT JOINED THE PARTIZANS, BUT NEVER ALLOWED USTASHA TO JOIN THE PARTIZANS?

    Mihailovic was captured by Tito forces in Eastern Bosnia in March 1946. Unlike Croatia’s heroes he didn’t flee to Austria and Germany, like U Nazi Croats did. — A collaborator would have.

    I guess you missed the 500 Croatian Ustashi that were captured from 1946-1948 in Yugoslavia who returned to start a rebellion against the communist regime as "Krizari"...men like Bozidar Kavran and Rafael Boban.

    Your knowledge of history is pathetic and like a snake you refuse to answer direct questions.

  • Balkan Basket Case

    02/11/2009 5:34:21 PM PST · 93 of 113
    Diocletian to PapaBear3625
    Good analogy and this holds true especially with Croatia. The Croatian Peasant Party (HSS) had the support of 90% of the Croatian electorate during the decade up until WW2. When Hitler marched into Yugoslavia, they rejected his offer of power and it instead went to a group with around 5% of the country's popular support.

    The HSS sat out the war (with tiny fragments joining either the resistance or the Axis collaborators) and were swept up in the whirlwind as Europe tore itself apart.

  • Balkan Basket Case

    02/11/2009 5:16:35 PM PST · 91 of 113
    Diocletian to Bokababe
    I don't hang out with Chetniks.

    If you would like the actual sources, I am willing to provide all the documentation necessary on a new thread that will discuss Chetnik collaboration with the Nazis and Italians.

    Are you interested?

  • Balkan Basket Case

    02/11/2009 5:08:26 PM PST · 89 of 113
    Diocletian to maher

    What does that have to do with Chetnik collaboration with the Italians and Nazi Germans?

  • Balkan Basket Case

    02/11/2009 4:51:11 PM PST · 87 of 113
    Diocletian to Bokababe
    Since I use Chetnik sources, German and Italian sources, I can hardly be reiterating "communist propaganda". Sorry, but your smear doesn't hold water.

    As stated before, Mihailovic played a double game with the Allies and Axis, collaborating with the Axis to stop the Partisans, and hoping for an Allied landing in Dalmatia at which point he'd switch.

    Facts are facts, Boka. And the fact that these facts come from Chetnik sources in the West post-war make them all the more solid.

  • Balkan Basket Case

    02/11/2009 3:32:17 PM PST · 85 of 113
    Diocletian to maher
    Incorrect. Mihailovic (specifically his small group in Serbia proper and not those west of the Drina River) didn't begin to openly collaborate until much later in the war. The Germans naturally viewed him as in irritant up until that point, which is why he was a wanted man.

    But that all changed once he began openly collaborating.

    His followers west of the Drina River and in Montenegro began open collaboration much sooner, many from the summer of 1941.

  • Balkan Basket Case

    02/11/2009 12:49:36 PM PST · 83 of 113
    Diocletian to Bokababe
    You wish to cite international law when it comes to Kosovo, but you reject international law when it comes to Croatia. That's a double standard.

    Enjoy your vacation.

  • Balkan Basket Case

    02/11/2009 12:46:54 PM PST · 81 of 113
    Diocletian to Bokababe
    Boka: it's not a "silly Croat argument". It's a legal position enshrined in international law.

    Secondly, NDH has nothing to do with the Republic of Croatia because they are two totally different states. RH is the legal successor to the SRH, not NDH since RH is based on ZAVNOH and SRH.

    Those are the facts. If you don't like it, you can file a suit with the UN. Even the Slovenes have rejected this position cited in the article since it shoots themselves in the foot in regards to Slovene pro-Axis forces during WW2.

    If we are to extend your logic, Croatia, Bosnia, Montenegro, and Kosovo can all sue the Republic of Serbia for Chetnik crimes committed in those countries.

  • Balkan Basket Case

    02/11/2009 12:22:42 PM PST · 79 of 113
    Diocletian to Bokababe
    Thank you for proving my point:

    Croatia has taken a clear stand on the matter. This is confirmed by its most important document, the Constitution, which states that the foundations of the Republic of Croatia sovereignty in the time of World War II were established on the decisions of the Anti-Fascist Council of People's Liberation of Croatia (ZAVNOH 1943) and then in the Constitution of the People`s Republic of Croatia (1947) etc.

  • Balkan Basket Case

    02/11/2009 12:05:24 PM PST · 77 of 113
    Diocletian to Bokababe
    Yeah, nice move there -- it avoided Croatia having to pay WWII reparations to those they murdered, even if it meant calling communists their "daddy"!

    You have zero understanding of international law.

  • Balkan Basket Case

    02/11/2009 11:52:21 AM PST · 75 of 113
    Diocletian to maher
    Of the two dozen ethnic groups in Yugoslavia all had some collaborators with the Germans, except the Turks, but in contrast to the massive Croatian alliance with the Germans people like Jevdjevic were bit players.

    Jevdjevic was far from a "bit player".

    Dobrosav Jevdjevic, a former member of the Skupstina, was made the official liason with the Italian forces by Draza in the Italian-occupied sector and therefore was the political head of all Chetnik units in the Italian zone alongside Ilija Trifunovic-Bircanin (who died during the war). Jevdjevic (who later fled to the USA after the war) was protected by the Italians from the Ustashi and was the main point man in regards to the legalization of the Chetniks as Italian MVAC units. Jevdjevic was next to Draza Mihailovic the most important Chetnik figure on the ground during WW2.

    Ljotic is no hero to the mass of Serbs; his motivation in any case was not to build a Third Reich but to prevent Germany’s decimation of the Serbs. Nedic is as disgraced in Serbian eyes as Petain in France. Neither Petain nor Nedic were Nazis.

    The point is that all these men collaborated from the get go after the capitulation, putting paid to the notion that Serbs were all anti-fascists.

    Ljotic in particular is an interesting case because he kept ties to the Ravna Gora Movement and some of the leaders of that movement such as Djujic were his followers. In the dying days of the war, Ljotic and Mihailovic agreed to form a combined force that would approach Pavelic to create a "pan anti-communist front" against Tito since all three thought that the West would never allow Tito to gain power since he was a Commmunist.

    Pecanac is reviled by Serb Partizani.

    Kosta Pecanac was the head Chetnik during the interwar period and began collaboration from day one after the capitulation in 1941.

    Djujic’s goal was not to join the Axis powers, but to prevent extermination – by Nazi Croatia – of the Serbs of Krajina, a territory which was never ethnically Croatian but subordinated to Croatian administration by the Kingdom of Yugoslavia, to placate the Croats and forestall German domination.

    LOL. Djujic never once fought the Axis and began collaboration from day one. He was an out and out collaborator. His units were made into Italian MVAC units. As for "extermination", that's funny since the Ustashi weren't allowed in those areas under Italian rule and the Chetniks instead were allowed to rule.

    Plus, much of what you call "Krajina" was annexed by the Italians: places like Obrovac, Benkovac, Kistanje, etc. meaning that they were under Italian and not Croatian rule. Djujic was the most prominent outright collaborator of the Axis during WW2 which is why he had to be evacuated by the Nazis after the Partizans took Knin in 1944.

    Italian generals supplied weapons to the Krajina Chetniks, who were not under Mihailovic’s command. He was in far-off Serbia, not Bosnia or “Croatia”.

    They were under his nominal command as part of the JVuO. A lot of confusion stems from this fact. Serb propagandists want their cake and to eat it too when it comes to this issue. Jevdjevic and Trifunovic-Bircanin were the bridge between Draza and Djujic.

    Croat babies today are baptized with the name of their Nazi Fuehrer (Poglavnik) Ante Pavelic.

    Utter horseshit! Ante has long been one of the three most popular names in Croatia because St. Anthony of Padua (Sv. Ante Padovanski) is the patron saint of southern Croatians.

    What an absolutely disgraceful smear from you.

    Serb halls in America have no paintings of any of the collaborators, while Croatian Cultural Centers are plastered with images of WW II Nazi Croats.

    Of course they do: Mihailovic, Djujic, Djurisic, etc.

    Remember the WANTED posters? The Germans in occupied Serbia offered the same big rewards for the capture of Mihailovic as for Tito — “Captured Dead or Alive”.

    And that ended when Draza began his overt collaboration later in the war.

    Now, when is Croatia going to sign a peace treaty with the USA? U declared war aginst America in 1941. U lost, but now U are back.

    The Republic of Croatia is the legal successor of the Socialist Republic of Croatia founded by ZAVNOH (WW2 Croatian Partisans) and not NDH.

  • Balkan Basket Case

    02/11/2009 11:36:20 AM PST · 74 of 113
    Diocletian to Bokababe
    The precise number killed are a difficult thing

    Actually it isn't since we have the numbers of Zerjavic, Kocovic, and the suppressed numbers from the Yugoslav gov't study (they chose to publish the inflated numbers for various political and financial reasons even after Djilas blew the whistle).

    You are attempting to equivocate the level of German collaboration when, in fact, the two sides were not "equal" then -- nor is it equal today!

    Are you implying that collaboration with Nazi Germany is going on even today? Wow.

    Bokababe: how do you square the fact that Momcilo Djujic, head Chetnik of the Serbs in Dalmatia and Lika during WW2 (who then lived in exile in the USA) and part of the Ravna Gora Movement under Draza was a follower of Dimtrije Ljotic and Zbor?

  • Balkan Basket Case

    02/11/2009 10:24:40 AM PST · 71 of 113
    Diocletian to Bokababe
    No, that's not Serbian propaganda.

    Serbian propaganda is that Mihailovic was an anti-Axis fighter throughout the war when in fact the Chetniks collaborated in varying degrees.

    Serbian propaganda is that the Serbs were anti-Axis and that Croatians were pro-Axis when the fact is that both sides had collaborators and both sides had those that opposed the Nazis.

    Serbian propaganda is that 700,000 Serbs were killed by the Ustashi when the fact is that only 530,000 Serbs were killed throughout the whole of Yugoslavia during that war from fighting in all conflicts.

    etc. etc. etc.

    Would you like me to post Serbian Nazi gear being sold in Belgrade today?

  • Balkan Basket Case

    02/11/2009 9:24:54 AM PST · 69 of 113
    Diocletian to Bokababe
    No one here even brought up WWII Yugoslavia with reference to today's Croatia, except the Dragic letter to the editor.

    That's precisely the point. Ravnagora for some reason decided to post a letter that once again brought up WW2.

    Americans are not so gullible today to just soak up innuendo and propaganda like sponges.

    Which is why they shouldn't lap up Serbian propaganda about WW2, I agree.

  • Balkan Basket Case

    02/11/2009 9:23:01 AM PST · 68 of 113
    Diocletian to montyspython

    Again, you’re misrepresenting my position. Most of my sources come directly from the Chetniks in emigration post-WW2. Were they liars?

  • Balkan Basket Case

    02/10/2009 9:01:54 PM PST · 63 of 113
    Diocletian to Ravnagora

    Jatras’ words aren’t relevant to the discussion at hand.

  • Balkan Basket Case

    02/10/2009 9:00:52 PM PST · 62 of 113
    Diocletian to Ravnagora
    Himmler is no doubt a credible source, but look at the years in discussion. At that point, the Chetniks under Mihailovic's direct control (those in Serbia proper and not in Bosnia, Hercegovina, Montenegro, Croatia) were yet to collaborate with the Germans. That came later.

    At that point in time in Serbia proper, the Germans were still banking on Nedic's forces as well as Pecanac's Chetniks. This all changed in the second half of 1943 in Serbia proper.

    As for Mihailovic's Chetniks outside of Serbia proper in 1942, those in the Italian occupation zone (Dalmatia, Lika, Montenegro, Western Bosnia, Hercegovina) were already in full collaboration with the Italians and many had been legalized by them as MVAC units (anti-communist auxillaries) and were being supplied and sheltered by them and engaged in actions alongside the Axis.

    Eastern Bosnia was in the German occupation zone and Draza's man there, Major Dangic, had already concluded a deal with the Germans in December 1941 to receive supplies and to fight the Partisans together with the Germans in what became known as the "Dangic Affair".

    The Chetniks under Mihailovic's direct control i.e. those in Serbia proper, didn't collaborate until much later. Those Chetniks outside of Serbia proper but under Mihailovic's nominal control were a completely different story.

    A lot of confusion about this stems from this fact.

  • Balkan Basket Case

    02/10/2009 8:55:35 PM PST · 61 of 113
    Diocletian to LjubivojeRadosavljevic

    None of what you said is incorrect, nor is anything I said incorrect. They complement each other.

  • Balkan Basket Case

    02/10/2009 7:18:57 PM PST · 57 of 113
    Diocletian to montyspython

    I’m not presenting the communist argument. I’m presenting the facts based on Chetnik sources and military documents found in the German and Italian archives post-war.

  • Balkan Basket Case

    02/10/2009 7:18:13 PM PST · 56 of 113
    Diocletian to Ravnagora
    ...and there is more than enough direct evidence to show that the Chetnik groups under Draza collaborated in varying degrees, with those furthest west never engaging in anti-Axis activities and collaborating from day one.

    As for bringing up Chetniks, the Serbs here always bring up WW2 on topics that have no relevance to it like this thread. The lead article has nothing to do with WW2. So when the Serbs bring it up and try to suggest that Serbs were somehow non-collaborators, I have to pull out the facts and show otherwise.

    Notice how Bokababe avoids answering the question about the Kozara anti-partisan operation in 1942. Serbs don't like to hear the fact that Vojvoda Radic's Chetniks took part in that operation to sweep the Kozara of Tito's Partisans and aided the Germans, Ustashi, and Domobrans in that action that saw those very same Serbian civilians and Partisans sent to Jasenovac.

    Why don't the Serbs touch upon who defended Benkovac from the Partisans in the dying days of the war, fighting shoulder to shoulder with them? (It was the Ustashi).

  • Balkan Basket Case

    02/10/2009 6:55:26 PM PST · 52 of 113
    Diocletian to Ravnagora
    For someone who hates the Titoists and the Yugoslav communists (and rightfully so, I might add) you sure do keep repeating their "talking points" over and over again in various threads. But, these charges you repeat are very routine when it comes to any discussion of General Draza Mihailovich and his Chetniks. I usually let this stuff go and turn the other cheek, but I think your challenge is worth addressing, if for nothing else but to present an "alternative" to the usually commie propaganda that's been part of the historial record with regards to the Chetniks for over six decades now.

    The mistake you're making is that my points aren't Titoist talking points. I don't use Communist sources when it comes to the Chetniks but rather use firsthand Chetnik sources as well as Italian and German sources found in the archives in Germany and Italy after the war.

    However, I found this hilarious tidbit from the comedic testimony that you posted:

    The real crime for which General Mihailovich is accused is that in the minds of 80 per cent of the Yugoslav population he became, and remains, the symbol of the simple, sturdy Yugoslav peasant resistance to tyranny, whether foreign or domestic.

    Considering that the Serbs formed roughly around 45% of the population of Yugoslavia at that time and that the Serbs themselves were split between the Chetniks and the Partisans (for the most part) and considering the attitudes of the Croatians, Bosnian Muslims, Magyars, Macedonians, Albanians, and pro-independence Montenegrins towards the Draza Chetniks, the 80% figure is absolutely hilarious.

    Why does the testimony not contain any mention of Draza's key figures in his movement such as Dangic, Djujic, Bacovic, and Jevdjevic...all men who openly collaborated with the Axis?

    Why is there no mention of which side the Chetniks appeared on during several key Axis offensives against the Partisans?

    Why did Robert H. McDowell omit so much from his testimony?

  • Balkan Basket Case

    02/10/2009 4:41:08 PM PST · 50 of 113
    Diocletian to Bokababe
    Yes, the Ljoticevi existed. But how large was this group, Dio? The Ljoticevi couldn't even win a single local election before the war -- they were a tiny faction, probably proportionally smaller than the American Nazi Party!

    The Ljoticevci weren't the only group, Bokababe. They're just one example. As for not winning a single election, neither did the Ustashe in Croatia.

    So you take a tiny faction, empowered by Germany only after Germany conquered Yugoslavia, and turn it into "all Serbs". That's nuts!

    Nowhere have I said "all Serbs". Nor is that the only faction. We can discuss the Chetniks under Kosta Pecanac, the units under Milan Nedic, the various MVAC forces, etc.

    And how was Mihailovic supposed to be "pro-German" when he rescued 500 American Airmen even after the US had switched sides to Tito.

    Because Mihailovic played a double game. He was actively engaged in a civil war with the Partisans and willingly taking German weapons and assistance to wipe them out all the while hoping that the Allies would land on the Dalmatian coast at which point his forces were to turn against the Axis.

    Recall though that this refers specifically to those Chetniks under his direct control. Other Chetnik groups under Draza's Ravna Gora Movement began collaboration much, much earlier with most never having had fought the Axis. Examples include Djujic's Dinarska Chetnicka Divizija which was legalized by the Italian Fascists as an MVAC force and which later took part in combined actions with Germans and Ustashi forces against the Partisans in and around Knin and which were rescued by the Germans after being routed by the Partisans in Northern Dalmatia.

    Another example includes the Chetnik head of Central Bosnia Uros Drenovic who like Djujic took weapons from the Germans, assisted in their offensives, and signed deals with the Ustashi for joint actions and patrols.

    The rule in the areas west of the Drina was for Chetnik units to serve as Axis auxillaries after the fall of 1941 to the end of the war with minimal exceptions.

    Mihajlovic's Cetniks were killing Ljoticevi, so please tell me which one was pro-German? Mihailovic and the Ljoticevi can't all have been supporting Germany while they were killing each other!

    Mihailovic's Chetniks and Ljotic's forces occasionally skirmished, but by 1944 they were in open alliance and the Chetniks faciliatated Ljotic's move to Slovenia where Draza instructed Ljotic to find out the situation with the Slovene Chetniks and to try to build an anti-communist coalition with Croatian forces against Tito.

    Recall also that Momcilo Djujic of Dalmatia was a follower of Dmitrije Ljotic while at the same time being a Vojvoda in Mihailovic's Ravna Gora Movement.

    You think that you are defending Croatia by distorting Serbia's WWII history -- you aren't. You are just dragging a red herring into the argument.

    Everything I've said is factual and can be documented.

    It's the same kind of red herring that you've used with "Jasenovac wasn't a death camp because there were people who were released from there". You provided me with a "list of those released from Jasonovac", and when I looked at it, I realized that the names were virtually all Croats! Yes, some "Croat dissidents" may have been released from Jasenovac, but that didn't render it "not a deathcamp" for Serbs, Jews and Gypsies!

    The list I provided you, one of several that still exist, have names from all those groups.

    You are preying on the ignorance of the uninformed in selling "a story" that does not fit the historical evidence.

    Once again, everything I have stated is factual and can be documented from different sources, none of them from NDH.

    As an example Bokababe, which units defended the town of Benkovac in Dalmatia from the Partisans and fought side by side? Take a wild guess.

    As for Jasenovac, the bulk of the civilians taken there came from the Kozara during Operation Kozara. Besides German and Croatian units guess which Serbian units took part in that offensive on the Axis side?

  • In Kosovo, whole families return to Catholic faith

    02/10/2009 3:49:31 PM PST · 6 of 6
    Diocletian to Tailgunner Joe

    Good news!

  • Balkan Basket Case

    02/10/2009 2:57:44 PM PST · 48 of 113
    Diocletian to Diocletian
    Serbian Volunteer Corps aka Ljoticevci. These are Serbian volunteers who sided with the Germans and fought under them.

    Serbian priest Aleksa Todorovic blessing the SVC soldiers:

  • Balkan Basket Case

    02/10/2009 2:49:03 PM PST · 47 of 113
    Diocletian to maher
    Serbs who served in the Yugoslav Army, fought Hitler in 1941 and were POWs in Germany, never went back to Churchill-FDR Yalta Yugoslavia.

    Yet you fail to mention how Kosta Pecanac, Serbian war hero and head of the Chetniks, automatically put his forces at the disposal of the Germans upon the Yugoslav capitulation.

    Yet you fail to mention the Serbian Volunteer Force put together by the Germans.

    Yet you forget to mention Dmitrije Ljotic the Serbian Fascist leader of the Zbor Party who put his forces at the disposal of the Germans and who at the end of the war pushed for Mihailovic's Chetniks and Pavelic's Ustasha to regroup in Slovenia and Austria to create a common "anti-communist" force to fight Tito.

    And yet you forget about Djujic's Chetniks in Croatia who never once fought the Italians nor Germans and fought on their side and accepted weapons from them.

    And yet you forgot to mention the Chetniks of Hercegovina through Serbian politician Dobrosav Jevdjevic who sided with the Italians and later the Germans.

    And yet you forget to mention Mihailovic's Chetniks in Serbia who accepted weapons from the Germans.

    And you forget to mention Major Dangic's Eastern Bosnian Chetniks who signed an accord with the Germans only a few months after the start of the war to pursue a common anti-Partisan strategy.

    Most Serbian forces collaborated in varying degrees.

  • Balkan Basket Case

    02/10/2009 2:34:40 PM PST · 44 of 113
    Diocletian to montyspython

    Where have I denied that bad things went on at Jasenovac?

  • Balkan Basket Case

    02/10/2009 2:32:49 PM PST · 43 of 113
    Diocletian to montyspython
    Feel free to point out anything that I have said that is factually incorrect. You need to rein in your emotionalism on this topic.

    The simple fact is that you guys don't like it when Serbian crimes are exaggerated so you guys should be the first to understand why we don't like it when Croatian crimes are exaggerated.

    Or do you support a double-standard?

  • Balkan Basket Case

    02/10/2009 2:31:26 PM PST · 42 of 113
    Diocletian to getoffmylawn

    It’s simply impossible since only 530,000 Serbs died during WW2 across the whole of Yugoslavia. So whoever made that claim was full of crap.

  • Balkan Basket Case

    02/10/2009 1:50:49 PM PST · 38 of 113
    Diocletian to montyspython
    Oh please spare me your "my family member died in Jasenovac" crap. A tragedy is a tragedy is a tragedy whether that person was killed by Ustashi in Jasenovac, by Partisans in the town square, or by Chetniks in the hills.

    Jasenovac was a concentration camp complex in which there were prison camps, labour camps, and in which executions of people innocent of crimes and guilty of crimes did take place.

    Labelling it a "death camp" makes it seem that the purpose of the camp was wholly one of executions when the facts simply show that it wasn't the case.

    It's akin to how Brezovo Polje was mislabeled as a "rape camp" simply because some rapes by Serbs of Muslim women took place there when it fact the camp was simply a prison camp with some random internees.

    You guys don't like it when media exaggerates about Serbs, so therefore you should understand why I don't like it when it happens to my people.

  • Balkan Basket Case

    02/10/2009 1:21:13 PM PST · 36 of 113
    Diocletian to Bokababe

    Post #34 was not in reference to you. As for the rest, it puts to rest your incorrect suggestions that my position is somehow unfounded. That’s why I mentioned the JRI and Djilas. So either you agree with me or you don’t on those points.

  • Balkan Basket Case

    02/10/2009 12:46:53 PM PST · 34 of 113
    Diocletian to Diocletian

    The great irony on this thread is seeing the Serb contingent cheer on Tudjman supporter Jeffrey T. Kuhner in his criticism of the Sanader regime. Funny stuff.

  • Balkan Basket Case

    02/10/2009 12:10:49 PM PST · 33 of 113
    Diocletian to Cicero
    There was no de-Nazification by Tito; he let the Yugo-Nazis swap their SS badges for the Red Star.

    Maher wrongly calls Ustashi "Yugo-Nazis". As for his claim, he is totally wrong since Tito's Partisans never extended amnesty to Ustashi but Serbian Chetniks were granted amnesty if they crossed over until late 1944.

    Maher is either misinformed or purposely lying.

  • Balkan Basket Case

    02/10/2009 12:08:55 PM PST · 32 of 113
    Diocletian to Bokababe
    What evidence do you want? Are you denying that the Jasenovac Research Institute openly lied about the names they posted on the list?

    Are you denying the fact that the Yugoslav regime inflated the numbers of war dead even after Milovan Djilas admitted that they did so?

  • Balkan Basket Case

    02/10/2009 12:05:56 PM PST · 30 of 113
    Diocletian to Ravnagora
    Let's tear this nonsense from Mr. Rakic to shreds:

    Why should the Nazi try to escape the justice? Because they were Croats or because they committed crimes, maybe worse than German Nazis did in Yugoslavia.

    Croatians weren't Nazis. They were either Ustashi, Domobrans, or Partisans. The attempt to form a Nazi party in Croatia was halted by the NDH regime and the party banned from ever assembling.

    Those “good” Croat Nazis murdered a cousin of mine just because her name was Sarah, burned my grand uncle and all the members of his parish in the concentration camp of Jasenovac, executed and committed genocide against Serbs, Jews, and Roma.

    Your personal anecdotes are worthless Mr. Rakic.

    As for those in Bleiburg, the majority were not Ustashi but were Domobrans who were quite different from the Ustashi....and many of those were recently mobilized teenagers. Apart from that, you had women and children who were escaping the communist regime.

    Alongside them, you had Montenegrin Chetniks who didn't want any part of life under communism just like those Croatian people.

    And while the Serbian royalist leader Draza Mihajlovic was executed, the Croat Nazi Ustasha leader, Pavelic died in the age of nearly 90 years in Argentina, his right hand Andrija Artukovic hada Mickey Mouse judgment in Zagreb and died in age of 85, and many other war criminals still live and write odious articles to ignorant American readers.

    Ante Pavelic died not at 90, but at 70 and not in Argentina, but in Madrid, Spain, from complications stemming from an assassination attempt.

    Andrija Artukovic was like Draza Mihailovic, subjected to a communist show trial in which Artukovic wasn't allowed to present evidence in his defense nor call witnesses to his defense.

    Mr. Kuhner should know better who started and when the last civil war in the former Yugoslavia. It was not in 1990 but in 1989, when irregulars started attacking the federal army., and expulse Serbs from Croatia.

    Utter crap. The first fight in Croatia occurred at Plitvice in 1990 between Croatian police forces and Serbian irregulars. There was no fighting in 1989. The first fighting between the JNA and Croatian forces didn't take place until the spring of 1991 when the JNA took the Serb side and attempted to steal Croatian land.

    Before the war there were 12% of Serbs in Croatia, and if you go to CIA site and take a look at the recent data about Croatia, you will find out that there is only 3% of Serbs left there. So who committed crimes or ethnic cleansing, it is up to normal people to judge according to facts and figures and not fairy tales and stories.

    Tell us how many Croatians remained within the borders of the "RSK" and "RS" and you'll see that the answer to the question is that the Serbs did by far the most ethnic cleansing during those wars.

  • Balkan Basket Case

    02/10/2009 11:57:02 AM PST · 29 of 113
    Diocletian to Bokababe; Cicero; montyspython; getoffmylawn
    After being corrected, you still refer to them as deathcamps. How could they be "death camps" when people were reguarly released from them after time served, good behaviour, amnesty?

    Cicero: beware of Serbian propagandists and their claims. The Jasenovac Research Institute for example engaged in a gross lie in which they published the names of 700,000 purported victims of the Ustashi in Jasenovac. It turned out that over 90% of the names were names of those who perished elsewhere, hundreds of thousands of which were on the Axis side during the war!

    At last count, I've found 110 relatives on the list and I can assure you that not one of them was a victim of Ustashi terror. For instance, two of my greatgrandparents were killed in an Allied air raid in October 1944, but both their names appear on the list of "victims of Ustashi terror" on the Jasenovac Research Institute site.

    Always, always take Serbian claims with a two handfuls of salt.

  • Balkan Basket Case

    02/09/2009 5:04:14 PM PST · 23 of 113
    Diocletian to Lucius Cornelius Sulla

    pretty much :)

  • Balkan Basket Case

    02/09/2009 4:44:43 PM PST · 21 of 113
    Diocletian to Bokababe; Cicero; Tailgunner Joe
    Jeffery T. Kuhner has been writing articles critical of Croatia's HDZ not out of some objective view, but rather because he is very, very close to Dr. Ivic Pasalic, the man who lost his leadership bid for the HDZ to the current leader Ivo Sanader by 55% to 45%. Sanader represents the moderate faction within the party and Pasalic represented the hard right nationalist faction that has since been expelled and dispersed amongst several other parties.

    Pasalic was President Tudjman's main advisor during the post-war phase and was loathed by Croatia's liberals and those working for George Soros.

    I don't have hard evidence, but it's not difficult to conclude that Mr. Kuhner is on Pasalic's payroll. Pasalic has tried several times to get back into the political game but the Sanader machine has been an effective one, both wiping out the hard right and sidelining Croatia's liberals and socialists time and time again.

    As for Croatia being a mafia state, corruption is still typically high (but normal on a Balkan level) as four decades of communism have imprinted such poor business standards and politics on the country.

  • Balkan Basket Case

    02/09/2009 4:39:54 PM PST · 20 of 113
    Diocletian to Nathan Zachary

    Croatia isn’t being Islamified.

  • Balkan Basket Case

    02/09/2009 4:39:23 PM PST · 19 of 113
    Diocletian to Ravnagora

    Dragan Rakic is an idiot.

  • Bosnia`s Main Parties Back Decentralisation Plan (a new administrative division into four parts)

    02/09/2009 4:38:33 PM PST · 9 of 10
    Diocletian to wonders; montyspython; Bokababe; LjubivojeRadosavljevic; Ravnagora
    The main scuttlebutt from the Prud agreement is the following:

    A four way split in which the Serbs keep Republika Srpska and the Federation is split between a Croat portion, a Muslim portion, and an enlarged Sarajevo region that would be multiethnic but most likely end up Muslim dominated.

    However, the age old map question comes out again. Dodik has stated (as has Tihic) that no maps were produced and Dodik has been adamant that the current RS administrative border will stay intact.

    However, word is spreading that the map may not stay as is with trade-offs happening. Some trade-offs that have been mentioned will see Srebrenica given to the Muslims with Brcko going to the Serbs. Another trade-off is a couple of counties in Bosanska Posavina (most likely Bosanski Brod, Samac, and Derventa) going to the Croatians in return for Bosansko Grahovo, Drvar, and possibly Bosanski Petrovac (Glamoc seems to be out of the question). The other trade off is the pockets of Croats in central Bosnia to the Muslims in return for the whole of Mostar to go to the Croats.

    All of this is mere speculation and leaves out the fate of the Bihac pocket.

    The only leak of any note is the suggestion by a Bosnian Croat deputy that three Croatian counties in Central Bosnia (Busovaca, Kiseljak, and Kresevo) would go to an enlarged Sarajevo. Who knows?

    The SDS, Karadzic's old party, has already cried "traitor" to Dodik for engaging in these talks. Silajdzic and the SDP (two opposition Muslim parties) have accused Tihic of much the same thing. The smaller Croat parties have held their fire re: Covic as the Bosnian Croat leader confers with church figures and the Croatian gov't as they hope to resurrect Herceg-Bosna, the Croatian entity in BiH.

    The next meeting is scheduled in a few weeks in Mostar...more fireworks to be expected.

  • Bosnia`s Main Parties Back Decentralisation Plan (a new administrative division into four parts)

    01/26/2009 10:33:13 PM PST · 2 of 10
    Diocletian to montyspython; getoffmylawn; kosta50; LjubivojeRadosavljevic; Hoplite; Bokababe

    ping

  • Bosnia`s Main Parties Back Decentralisation Plan (a new administrative division into four parts)

    01/26/2009 10:32:22 PM PST · 1 of 10
    Diocletian
  • The Dubrovnik and Bosnia-Hercegovina Deception

    01/26/2009 7:28:03 PM PST · 81 of 106
    Diocletian to maher
    There is no standard Vlach language. There is no alphabet for any Vlach whatsoever.

    Hopefully you understand.

    Don’t forget to say a prayer to (Serbian) Sveti VLAHO (= Croatian BLAZ^). His feast day is Feb 3 (Gregorian calendar).

    You're confusing Orthodoxy with Serbian nationality, a typical mistake of Serb propagandists.

    Thankfully, you've the common sense to admit you were wrong about the Statuta Valachorum being a "geographical descriptor".

    It looks like I'm gonna have to teach you about the Vlachs, but that'll have to wait until I return from Croatia, Serbia, and Montenegro. I'm scheduled to give a lectureon WW2 in all three places.

  • The Dubrovnik and Bosnia-Hercegovina Deception

    01/26/2009 5:51:58 PM PST · 79 of 106
    Diocletian to maher
    The Vlach language isn't codified nor contains even a literature. Anyone with even a cursory knowledge of Vlach history is aware of this.

    Vlachs have been known for centuries for easily assimilating into their host cultures.

  • The Dubrovnik and Bosnia-Hercegovina Deception

    01/26/2009 5:50:24 PM PST · 78 of 106
    Diocletian to maher

    I guess you missed the Croatian Ustasha of the 19th century in Bosnia-Hercegovina. For instance, the final successful rebellion was started in the Croatian village of Gabela near Capljina in 1875 by Croatian Ustasha and soon spread to neighbouring Serbian villages and towns like Nevesinje.

  • The Dubrovnik and Bosnia-Hercegovina Deception

    01/26/2009 5:49:01 PM PST · 77 of 106
    Diocletian to maher
    That was Yugoslavia, not Croatia.

    Tito stole Srijem from Croatia and gave it to Serbia. Tito also stole 1/3rd of Bosnia-Hercegovina from Croatia to create that republic.

  • The Dubrovnik and Bosnia-Hercegovina Deception

    01/26/2009 5:48:00 PM PST · 76 of 106
    Diocletian to maher
    Slavonia was Croatian land according to the Croatian-Magyar Nagodba and prior agreements.

    Dubrovnik was Croatian prior to Tito (see Banovina Hrvatska, for instance).

    Dalmatia was the original home of the Croatians in the Balkans...all the royal capitals were in Dalmatia as were all the Croatian kings Dalmatians.

    Your history is poor.

  • The Dubrovnik and Bosnia-Hercegovina Deception

    01/26/2009 5:45:31 PM PST · 75 of 106
    Diocletian to maher
    Incorrect. Wallachia never stretched into the area past Srijem, while the Statuta Walachorum stretched all the way to Karlovac.

    Secondly, Tsar Dushan himself forbade Serbs from marrying Vlachs during the Medieval era.

    Yes, nations did arise in their present form during the 19th century. The Serbs themselves Serbianized the Vlachs by law in the Kingdom of Serbia by legally obligating them to change their names into Serbian ones and culturally in non-Serb lands through the Serbian Orthodox Church.

    The most well known Serbianized Vlach of the 20th century was Serbian Royalist Premier Dragisa Cvetkovic aka Cincar (Vlach).

    Some Catholic Vlachs were Croatianized (especially in my region).

    Take a look at this map to see the names of the Vlach tribes that later would become Serbians and Croatians:

    link

    I will continue more on this theme later.

  • Excommunications lifted for SSPX bishops (done deal)

    01/24/2009 4:02:43 PM PST · 13 of 17
    Diocletian to NYer

    Excellent news, thanks.