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Not the brightest bulbs? Please clarify that statement. This first process of gaining a Ranger contract for a young man joinging the military is a higher GT score than his average peers. The Regiment does not need, nor accept the unintelligent. Not to mention that the other Special Ops units in the Army are largely staffed by men who started their military careers in the Regiment. Young? Absolutely. Dim? No sir.

However, you are 100% correct that there is no possible way that he was fragged by his fellow Platoon members. Nor was he off for a meeting with Chomsky. Tillman and the rest of the Rangers in his Platoon were concered with two things: when would their next hot meal be, and where could they find Hadji and kill him.

Anyone who believes this entire situation was ANYTHING other than a tragic, undesirable side effect of war needs to step away from the cool-aid.

It does not cheapen the sacrifice. I simply think a parent or loved one wants to know all the details on how their son/father/brother died. That is surely a naturally emotion, but let's not forget the job Pat Tillman was doing. I would think that the Army would make every effort they could to provide the families all of the information they could with regards to the circumstances surrounding his death, but for men who make their living in that line of work, their loved ones rarely have the luxury of being informed as to what their loved one is / was doing. It goes with the territory. I guess what bothers me, if anything at all, is that the media reports lead me to believe that his Brothers who fought and bled with him killed him through incompetence and then turned their back on our Creed, and dishonored themselves and our proud heritage by attempting to cover it up. I just don't see it happening. I have been retired for ten years now, and I am still closer to my Rangers buddies than I am my own family. Their is no way on God's green earth that I could ever dishonor one of their memories. I was never an officer, but I assumed that a fratricide incident can't be good for any officer's career. But in my mind that is a long way from and Ranger Company Commander turning his back on our Ranger Creed, on every man under his command, and every Ranger that has come before us simply to save himself from scrutiny. I just don't see it happening. In my opinion, it would not shock me if some shady goings on occurred at the levels of the upper echelon, but not at the level of the men who mourn his death as much as his biological family, although in a different way.

I'm sure it must be agonizing. I guess my point is that HOW he died in no way cheapens his sacrifice to us all. He answered the call. He suited up, He put his boots in the sand, and he died there. Whether he died in a last stand like a Hollywood war movie, or died from an infection from some Afghanistan funk - it makes no difference to me. The man is a hero, and he didn't need any help from the Pentagon or the media to convince me of that fact.

Admittedly, he wasn't my son, but the fact that he was killed by friendly fire in now way makes his death meaningless to me. Tragic? Absolutely. Meaningless? No way. His death is a prime example of the senselessness, brutality, and unfairness of war, and why I thank my maker that we have men in this country like Pat Tillman to step up, answer the call, and volunteer to go into harm's way on my behalf.

Yes, Cpl Tillman was fully trained. The Ranger Regiment trains their Rangers a little differently than sister units within SOCOM. Many other units will put Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen, and Marines through their entire pipeline prior to assigning them to their unit. The Ranger Regiment does not, for a variety of reasons. One thing is for certain, The Ranger Regiment has more on the job training than any other special ops unit. In my opinion, it makes them a much more effective force. By the time a young private from one of the Ranger Battalions actually gets his chance at Ranger School, he already knows the curriculum, and is going to get his Tab to further his career and become a Team Ldr, etc., NOT to learn how to be a Ranger.

It is my understanding the Cpl Tillman had completed RIP (Ranger Indocrination Program) served a period of time in 2nd Batt, where he received his on the job training (not a fun time for young Rangers), and had been sent to and completed Ranger School. It is my understanding that he was serving as a team leader at the time of his death, which would make him the backbone of the Regiment. He was the man that lead by example ("follow me and do what I do"), and trained to other Rangers in his team in preparation for Ranger School, not to mention completing their combat missions and coming home alive.

A lengthy answer, but yes, Cpl Pat Tillman was serving in a crucial junior leadership role within his Platoon, and more than adequately trained to be in combat.

There are tactical and medical reasons for the burning of uniforms in a combat environment. In addition, irregardless of how high tech our military becomes, at some point of the operation, we will have to put boots on the ground to seize the land, and therefore, fratricide will always be a risk in warfare. It is going to happen. I will say from experience that the 75th Ranger Regiment goes the extra mile and then some to do anything and everything they can to minimize the risks of fratricide. I can't imagine the Hell the man who fired the shot(s) is living in, knowing he was responsible to the loss of a Brother.

Also, the commanders in the field are not responsible for refuting statements made by Special Operations Command. Their jobs are to train soldiers and carryout mission orders, not public relations. Their discipline requires silence on this issue.

My heart goes out to the Tillman family, and I thank them for their sacrifices. Every Ranger, past and present, grieves with them. But at the end of the day, after all of the investigations, I would be shocked - no, crushed, if it is found the one of our Ranger Brethren in the field did anything dishonest to cover up and sweep this under the rug. It's just not how the Regiment does business. The lives of Rangers in uniform depends on errors being recognized and corrected, not ignored.

I truly hope the Tillman family finds peace as soon as possible.

The doggies are afraid and with good reason.

I would submit that the good Commander is in need of an OPSEC refresher. I know if I were I Marine attempting to be a charter member in this new unit I would want to give him a nice long session of wall to wall counseling for blabbing to a reporter for any reason with regards to this supposed new unit. Reserve component or not, as a SEAL he knows better.

Secondly, by doggies I am assuming you refer to the Army components of SOCOM. While I would agree with the Commander's opinions of the "regular" Army's general officers, he is off the mark with regards to the caliber of officers and senior noncoms found within SOCOM. Within the Army, Army units assigned to SOCOM do not consider themselves a part of the "regular" Army. Ask any soldier who has served both within and without SOCOM, and he will agree. If formed, this Marine unit will have to prove themselves, as I am sure they will. Once they are fully integrated within SOCOM and can operate in this new (to them) environment, everything will be just hunky dory.

Look at how many individual units from each branch are tasked to SOCOM. Naturally, as the largest branch, the Army has it. While there may be some politics going on, the Marines, as much respect as I have for them, are not going to walk in with a brand new unit a start throwing tables out the window. Ain't gonna happen. The USMC has a very, very, very long way to go before they, as a branch, will be in a position to do that.

That being said, I have thought from day one, and continue to think that this is a move for the Corps that is long overdue.

My wife has been involved in cheerleading and gymnastics since childhood, cheered throughout school and college, and continues to teach cheerleading still.

Many of these girls take gymnastics on top of their cheering practices. My wife has suffered more injuries in her life in cheering and gymnastics than I ever have playing football as well as military service.

You may not consider it a sport. You may not like what cheerleading has become. Heck, personally I don't give a rat's behind about cheerleading, but these girls are definitely talented athletes in their own right, and they are most certainly not gymnastics throwbacks.

I disagree. Joint operations are the lynch pin of modern day Special Operations. SOCOM was established largely due to D1, as well as Grenada.

The Corps has been severely behind the power curve since. Nothing against their proud heritage. But the bottom line is that their high speed / low drag types were losing missions because they did NOT fall under SOCOM.

Every unit that falls under SOCOM has retained their proud lineage to date. I think this is a very good move for the Corps, and one that is long overdue.

My wife has one right now that was named Dasani, as in the bottled water.

99% of the names she brings home just amaze me. But, I've seen "whites" with freaky names too. Served with a guy whose first and middle names were Arrow Plane. Crack kills, ya know.

She will get no forgiveness from me. I hope the maggots that are stupid enough to one day eat her rotting, putrid corpse die a slow death of food poisoning.

A favorite cadence from years past;

I saw Jane Fonda in Beverly Hills
A razor sharp Gerber makes an overkill
I slipped up the stairs in the middle of the night
Reached around the corner and flipped on the light
I unsheathed my Gerber with a big 'ol grin
AND I SPLIT THAT B#$%^ FROM HER BELLY TO HER CHIN
There's nothing in the world that I'd rather see
THAN A COMMUNIST B#$%^ IN MISERY

Pretty much sums in up for me, although that type of death would be way to easy for a person as treacherous as she.

If I were you, I would do a lot of research on what it would take for you to get into such units. You will find that the path a West Point grad, for instance, must take to become an officer in the 75th Ranger Regiment, or one of the Special Forces Groups, is totally different than enlisted ranks. You may make a poor decision out of ignorance that will prevent you from ever realizing your goals. As an example, from experience I know that your chances of becoming a Ranger are much higher if you are enlisted. Many young men want to become a Ranger but want to become officers first, and never realize both goals. Therefore, within the Army, if you want to be an officer as well as serve in a special ops unit, SFAS might just be a more realistic goal for you, assuming of course the mission statement of our Special Forces Groups is one that you would enjoy. Bottom line is that you must be prepared to prove yourself as an officer before going to any of the special operations selection courses, whereas some of those courses are open to enlisted ranks right after their initial training.

Whichever path you decide to take, I would strongly advice that you dismiss anyone and everyone that tells you to go one way or the other because so and so is the best there is. Each unit has their strenghts and weaknesses, and each unit has different mission statements as well as operational tempos. I'd hate to see you stake your future on the completely inaccurate Hollywood version of our military forces put forward by people who have no military special operations experience whatsoever. Saying the Rangers are the best, or the SEALs are the toughest in the world is, quite frankly, a statement of ignorance. Don't fall for it.

Congratulations on your accomplishments to this point, and I wish you the best of luck in the long and rewarding journey that you are about to embark upon. There are plenty of message boards out there that cater to special operations soldiers where a person could gather a lot of no BS info that you are looking for. I wouldn't discount those sources if I were you, because the information gleaned there can put you well ahead of the game.

Good luck.

I fully understand the points that you both are making. However, I do not believe there was an intentional cover up or misdirection from anyone in the 75th Ranger Regiment in either the Pat Tillman fratricide OR what happened in The Mog.

I entered the 75th Ranger Regiment less than a year after 3/75 returned from Somalia. I can't began to tell you how many times the lessons learned in Somalia impacted my training.

One thing that we must all keep in mind when scrutinizing the manner in which the Army, and in both of these cases the 75th Ranger Regiment, is that the manner in which 75th Ranger Regiment handles PR is totally different than what most all civilians are used to. In a way, you almost have to experience it to fully understand.

The 75th Ranger Regiment, and the remainder of the special ops community, operate on a need to know basis. OPSEC is beaten into your heads, almost literally. I can assure you these men's familes had no clue where they were when this happened. Unless you are part of the 75th Ranger Regiment, or a member of a sister unit in the spec ops community (SEALS, PJs, SF, 160th SOAR) holding the proper security clearances, you're not gonna find out. Period. It is that important to the survival of these warriors.

How many of the mainstream American public actually knew what a Ranger was or did prior to the release of the movie BHD? Not many at all. I can't tell you how many times while active duty I was asked if I was a Marine, and when I replied that I was a Ranger, I got a blank look as to why a Texas Ranger looked like I did. I'd just smile and not say a dang word. The Rangers, at the core of their being, believe the less people know about them, the happier and safer they are. That's just the way it is.

You haven't seen an imbeded reporter on a mission with them, and I don't think you ever will.

I agree that we need to be weary of the Army covering things up. But I truly believe in both cases that the mentality coming out of the Ranger Regiment in both these cases is that it is a members only club, on a need to know basis, and they are not anywhere near receptive to reporters asking questions, mainly because it puts Rangers lives at risk.

The 75th Ranger Regiment spares no expense in attempts to further safeguard their Rangers. The fact that they do not broadcast every little deatail, and do not welcome reporters to come behind close doors to report on things they have no comprehension of, in my mind, does NOT mean that they are out there operating as a rogue element, screwing the pooch, and then covering it up in order to prevent public scrutiny. In fact, nothing could be farther from the truth.

Transparency (sp?) is not part of military special operations, and should not be. That, combined with the public's thirst for knowledge, is what has brought this $h!t storm up, not officers covering up something that happnens in war (fratricide).

If this were the 25th ID, or some other comventional unit, I would agree whole heartidly. But information comes out of spec ops units differently, and I think we must keep that in mind before we accuse someone of a cover up in this case.

While an unrealistic expectation, I believe the DOD already releases far too much information to the press. In my line of reasoning, John Q. Public does not need to know the full names, date of injury / death , location of injury / death, on and on and on. These reports enable any who would want to know where a unit was, and when, or even where a unit still is. In my mind, that is a violation of OPSEC (operational security).

Sure, the American public want to know. That is a natural emotion. But in most cases, it only hurts the soldiers on the ground. I'd rather see us make sure our soldiers are able to email the loved ones rather than make sure the reporters have their body counts to throw out every friggin' night.

Our military commanders on the ground have enough to worry about - things like killing the enemy and getting the Hooahs home safe and sound. They shouldn't have to worry about what some limp wristed reporter (who wouldn't know a combat patrol from their elbow) is gonna say, or be pressured to get an "official" story of a soldiers death out before the investigation is completed simply because the media, and American public by default, are screaming for it. There are some things that we, the public, truly do not need to know.

We should be told number killed, number wounded, and months those occurences happened in. Anything further is for the families. I know it won't happen that way, but that is what I think.

Pat Tillman would have NEVER tolerated getting the attention in life that he is getting in death. In addition, we have more important things to do than worry about who said what to what reporter. Forget the stupid reporters and let the boys kill the enemy. I'm to the point that I am about ready to beat down the next whiny reporter I hear utter the man's name. Let the man rest.

I am sure you disagree. I guess my position can best be summed up by one question; What has the knowledge of Pat Tillman being killed by fratricide done to help YOU make the troops on the ground any safer? Probably not much more than it has me. It's just tarnished the military and his memory, and surely put his family through a Hell they certainly do no deserve.

You and I don't need to know the details of his death. Any lessons to be learned from this incident have already been discovered and implemented by the 75th Ranger Regiment Command, I can assure you.

You and I knowing the "juicy" details of Tillman's last moments does nothing to further safeguard soldiers still on the field of battle, and only serves to tarnish the memory of Tillman's sacrifice, as well as undermine the reputation of one of the finest light infantry units on the face of the Earth.

RLTW

The Marine did nothing wrong. He would only be guilty of violating the GC if;

1. His unit had already reached the limit of advance (LOA), which they had not. They were still advancing. If they HAD already reached the LOA, they could not go back over the objective and re-engage the enemy. They were advancing, so wounded enemy is still free game. Double tapping enemy combatants on the battlefield, still alive or blown to pieces, was SOP in my unit, because once we passed over them, we could not turn around to re-engage.

2. The terrorists should not be afforded the protections of the GC, which I do not believe they are. They are not uniformed soldiers who wear a recognizable patch on their uniform, which is one of the requirements of combatants to get the GC protections.

Forget the battlefield stress bunk. The Marine did his job well, and surely saved the lives of the Marines with him. A active battlefield is no place for a non-military camera weenie.

sorry for the duplicate. Mods please delete.

Thanks.

A Co, 1st Bn 75th Ranger Regiment

It may be a little early to tell, but I do not think this was a freak accident.

My wife called me on her way into work (near downtown Knoxville) this morning, and said that the radio station was reporting that a third person has been shot in the vacinity of the James White Pkwy overpass. She said that Knoxville was crawling with police from mupltiple jurisdictions.

By the way, James White Pkwy and Newport are well over 50 miles from one another.

Exclusions are common to all policies. It is ultimately your responsibility to know what exclusions are listed in the policy that is mailed to you. It is also your reponsibility to make sure that you have the coverage that you need, with your agent's assistance, of course. If you can't accept the terms of the policy, have your agent look at another carrier for you.

I can hardly see how it could be considered thievery for an insurance company to deny a claim due to a peril that is specificly excluded in your policy.

You are paying for a promise to pay, within the limitations listed in the policy. You are not paying for an unconditional promise to pay, and you are not paying for a promise to renew for another term.

Just because I write a check to my insurance company does not mean that I am covered no matter what.

Ribs? Try Dreamland in Tuskaloosa Ala.

I wish you had told me that before last summer. I went to another BBQ shack in Tuscaloosa, and it was terrible




Is that the joint in Tuscaloosa the only serves ribs and bread - nothing else?