I see the hand of GOD in everything.

Faith is the confidence that what we hope for will actually happen;

Why would one have faith in something for which one has no evidence? That makes no sense. I hope I'll win the the lottery, but I recognize that the odds are astronomically against me (which is why I don't play). Having faith that I'm going to win won't have the slightest impact on whether or not I actually will win.

it gives us assurance about things we cannot see.

How can one be assured about the existence of things for which there is no evidence? That's not rational.

I wish you could have the experience of the Spirit of God move through you and into situations of your life so you would know God is real. I wish you had it move through your relationships, work, mind and emotions to soothe you and move/direct you.

Assuming that the Spirit of God is real (and is as presented in the Bible) then I wish the same.

I wish you could have it move through your body to heal you like has happened to me throughout my life.

Science cured my kidney cancer earlier this year, whereas everything I've read about faith healing has lead to the conclusion that it's a placebo at best, and fraud resulting in death at worst. I'll stick to what works!

What is it that you do not see happening today as it pertains to Western culture, as stated in the passage that opened this thread? Did you read and understand the passage before you dismissed it? What about did you deem false?

As I look at the universe (and I have a fairly good understanding of astronomy) I see no evidence of the supernatural (the hand of God) whatsoever.

Welcome to FR!

Thank you.

I try to avoid posters where it doesn’t go well. If things start soundin’ bad I just bail. Better to go silent than beserk, IMHO. Hope this helps.

Some people take message board posts waaaaay too seriously. I think you have the right attitude.

This is one I've had trouble with, but only because I used my rational mind to solve a supernatural problem.

We're told that in this arena "seeing is believing" is backwards, that we must first believe and then we will see.

Sorry, but that makes no sense whatsoever. It's in complete opposition to the scientific method...which works.

Yes, that's true, for what you know now. You'll have to do it to prove it. Like much in life, it's waiting for you to find out for yourself, one way or another.

Just know that you are surrounded by people who have found something that you know doesn't exist, but that they know personally. History is full of such examples and their stories.

Run that through the scientific method...if you can devise the right experiments to test for that.

With our limited senses, we are only able to discern and experience a very small sliver of the electromagnectic spectrum.

For most, that's all we knew/know for sure, scientifically, until we built devices to reveal more of the world we live in.

We have learned much compared to where we humans started from, but we know so very little about what actually is.

Just know that you are surrounded by people who have found something that you know doesn't exist, but that they know personally. History is full of such examples and their stories.

There certainly are. Millions know personally that such things as Bigfoot, ESP, dowsing, angels, demons, astrology, UFOs, ghosts, crystal healing, faith healing, and homeopathy work / are real. And they're all so much BS.

Let's not forget that over a billion people know personally that there is only one God (Allah), and Muhammed is his prophet.

Belief is meaningless. And for the record, I don't *know* that God doesn't exists. I'm an agnostic.

We have learned much compared to where we humans started from, but we know so very little about what actually is.

Compare the knowledge that advances in science have given us in, say, they last 200 years to the knowledge that advances in theology have given us in the last 2000 years.

I'll stick to science. It's the best tool ever invented to investigate the nature of the universe.

Faith is the confidence that what we hope for will actually happen;

Why would one have faith in something for which one has no evidence? That makes no sense. I hope I'll win the the lottery, but I recognize that the odds are astronomically against me (which is why I don't play). Having faith that I'm going to win won't have the slightest impact on whether or not I actually will win.

If we can't see or define something, so we can't prove that it exists, but it has effects and we see the effects, the effects are the evidence for the existence of the "something".

it gives us assurance about things we cannot see.

How can one be assured about the existence of things for which there is no evidence? That's not rational.

The Bible has the Old and New Testaments. Back in the day, people's wills were a Last Will and Testament. The Testament part has been largely forgotten, but that is where they would write their Christian Testimony; this was left to their progeny.

The Bible is testimony, in the same way testimony is offered in civil and criminal trials as evidence. The Bible is the first evidence we have of God.

Most people who deny the existence of God simply brush past the Bible. What if, in a trial, the jury simply threw out all the testimony of the witnesses ?

It's not thrown out, of course, the jury goes through it all, looking for logical reasons to establish whether the witness is being truthful. Do they have a reason to lie ? What do they have to gain or lose ? Does some of their testimony contradict other parts of their testimony ? Is their testimony all too perfect, such as eye witnesses all essentially parroting the same exact words ?

We do not have any video from 2,000 years ago, we don't have receipts and phone bills. The Library at Alexandria was destroyed - but we know of it's existence. The evidence we have is ancient writings. No one with any sense denies the existence of the Library.

Of course another kind of evidence is physical; the world in all it's complexity. The secular educational system and the news and entertainment media industry present what is almost exclusively hypotheses as facts. This very subtle deception has pervaded society to the extent that most people assume that the Bible has been disproved by science, even where no serious scientist claims to have anything other than a hypothesis about the origin of the cosmos and life. As an example, if the following article, en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Earth, is read with an unbiased and critical eye, one can see how subtle switches between speculative and factual permeate the text to the point where an unwitting reader will surmise that the entire document is as certain as death and taxes.

The idea of accepting hypotheses as facts must be abandoned in order to be open to admitting that humans do not know, in truth, much of anything - relative to how much there is to know. The pseudo-science of our culture has us vastly underestimating the set of all knowledge. The size of the set of human knowledge relative to the set of all possible knowledge is utterly infinitesimal. When speaking with "lay people", our learned elites, like doctors and scientists, typically will drill down into more detailed knowledge to the point where science does not have an answer, then very deftly transition to a smooth turn of their discourse which causes the non-technical listener to believe that the scientist stopped at some fundamental for which there is no further detail. Only if the astute listener stops them precisely at that point and presses them for more detail will they then admit that science has reached it's current knowledge limit in terms of further detail on that specific question. Rarely do we hear that "science does not know"; the focus is shifted to the "positive" - science "continues to research and learn more". A good lawyer would then emphasize for the jury - "so you don't know for sure that a horse evolved from a dog, and, let me remind you you're under oath".

Ironically (from our perspective), it's the blind faith in science that people cling to in order to avoid reading the Bible and it's "rules". It's not the existence of God that people are resisting - it's his Law. They would be perfectly happy to believe in a God that let them do as they pleased and required nothing from them. In fact, many professing Christians openly defy the Bible's teachings themselves, thus the concept of the invisible and visible Church.

You're a hard case, that much is clear to me, just like I am. And, it is just as clear that I don't have much more to offer you.

Just an opinion, as is almost everything else I write, but I suspect you've been offered/shown more than enough proof by the One you asked for forgiveness.

You just won't let yourself see it yet.

A teacher once told me we put blocks in place to keep us from what we're not ready for. That's been my experience as well.

Good luck on your path out of The Matrix! (and watch out for miracles...seriously)

Science cured my kidney cancer earlier this year, whereas everything I've read about faith healing has lead to the conclusion that it's a placebo at best, and fraud resulting in death at worst. I'll stick to what works!

Medical science is compatible with Scripture. Unethical medicine, i.e., intentionally causing death, etc., is unscriptural. There used to be a "do no harm" principle even from a secular point of view in medicine.

Science cured my kidney cancer earlier this year, whereas everything I've read about faith healing has lead to the conclusion that it's a placebo at best, and fraud resulting in death at worst. I'll stick to what works!

Modern-day faith healing is unscriptural. The Reformation dispensed with it as heretical, but it's made inroads back since the 1800's in America.

It seems fairly obvious that we have limits as to what we can accomplish with medicine; I don't think anyone thinks that a man can perform a miracle !

Praying for the sick certainly is Scriptural. Certainly Believers know that God hears their prayers and is almighty and sovereign, and according to his will we will live or die, no matter how good or bad our circumstance may seem at any particular moment. We know he cares for his own like a father for his child. The Believer is comforted and the Bible tells us that we are to accept God's will.

As I look at the universe (and I have a fairly good understanding of astronomy) I see no evidence of the supernatural (the hand of God) whatsoever.

Do you see evidence of anything ?

Why would one have faith in something for which one has no evidence?

Joseph,

You delight in unbelieving. Hopefully you will come to you senses before it is too late. Time is short. Jesus is coming soon.

My prayer for you is that you will one day become a believer in Jesus Christ and do mighty exploits in His name for His glory.

There certainly are. Millions know personally that such things as Bigfoot, ESP, dowsing, angels, demons, astrology, UFOs, ghosts, crystal healing, faith healing, and homeopathy work / are real. And they're all so much BS.

Let's not forget that over a billion people know personally that there is only one God (Allah), and Muhammed is his prophet.

Some believing in false gods does not prove that a true living God does not exist.

Belief is meaningless.

It's certainly not worthless. In any endeavor, a belief that the endeavor is worthy and will succeed helps to maintain good morale, and increases the ability of the person or group to persevere and see the endeavor through to successful completion. When people have little faith that their efforts will bear fruit, it is very detrimental to their efforts. When someone loses faith in you, is it not disheartening ? "Oh ye of little faith" are words our Lord spoke; God our heavenly Father must be so disheartened at our lack of faith.

You probably agree with this, but by meaningless, I'm sure you mean that if something is truly false, believing that it is true does not change the fact that the thing is false. The person who believes in something false is lying to themselves.

This leads to the question of how can we have confidence that our faith is not for naught, how can we be assured that the promises of Scripture are true and God is ?

These very questions are posed in the Bible and answers are given.

And for the record, I don't *know* that God doesn't exists. I'm an agnostic.

Not knowing provides a purpose for seeking; not seeking reveals not wanting to know, at least not enough to make the effort to seek. This in itself is a rejection of God.

We have learned much compared to where we humans started from, but we know so very little about what actually is.

Compare the knowledge that advances in science have given us in, say, they last 200 years to the knowledge that advances in theology have given us in the last 2000 years.

I'll stick to science. It's the best tool ever invented to investigate the nature of the universe.

Ecclesiastes 9

"4 For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion.

5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

7 Go thy way, eat thy bread with joy, and drink thy wine with a merry heart; for God now accepteth thy works.

8 Let thy garments be always white; and let thy head lack no ointment.

9 Live joyfully with the wife whom thou lovest all the days of the life of thy vanity, which he hath given thee under the sun, all the days of thy vanity: for that is thy portion in this life, and in thy labour which thou takest under the sun.

10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest."

I'll stick to science. It's the best tool ever invented to investigate the nature of the universe.

You say that, but science and the scientific method do not dismiss all evidence that doesn't agree with their theory. If they do, they aren't science and their methods not scientific.

Then again, if the only tool you have is a hammer, I suppose everything looks like a nail...just don't get too comfortable in your arrogance.

The lessons found there are not enjoyable. Wouldn't you agree?

Thank You NewHeart