I see the hand of GOD in everything.

K J V | o9/18/2012 | Rich Sr

[ZX12R]

About being an agnostic on a PRO GOD site!

I am PRO GOD, and it didn't bother me horribly, what the poster said. Unlike zealots, I don't feel offended when people think differently than I do. It doesn't send me into a "Burn the Infidel" kind of mood. I leave that to the muzzies.

[GBA]

I don 't see the hand of God in anything, myself. To each their own.

I congratulate you for your honesty. I hope you won't be too offended by those who will take offense to your honest statement.

Those who will react badly and attempt to punish you for telling your truth are NOT the best representatives for Christ and His example and speak ONLY for THEMSELVES and not for God and His ministry.

Seeing the damage they do and feeling their judgment are some of the reasons I and many others stay as far away from Church and similar Christians as they can. "

If, by their fruits ye shall know them, I'd say their efforts and results make more work for God rather than adding to His flock.

Thank you so much for your post! You have added a great deal more to this thread than you probably had in mind. More evidence for how things really work and how it's all part of His Plan!

[ZX12R]

I congratulate you for your honesty. I hope you won't be too offended by those who will take offense to your honest statement. Those who will react badly and attempt to punish you for telling your truth are NOT the best representatives for Christ and His example and speak ONLY for THEMSELVES and not for God and His ministry. Seeing the damage they do and feeling their judgment are some of the reasons I and many others stay as far away from Church and similar Christians as they can. " If, by their fruits ye shall know them, I'd say their efforts and results make more work for God rather than adding to His flock. Thank you so much for your post! You have added a great deal more to this thread than you probably had in mind. More evidence for how things really work and how it's all part of His Plan!

Hold on now! That is such a wonderful and thoughtful post. What the heck? Oh wait...we're not in the religion forum...that explains it.

[RichSr]

That is nice.
I agree in.. How do I say this... If an individual will not do what HE wills/says to do; HE will have someone oneelse do it and “spank” the one that won’t, then bless the one who does.
AND what HE wants still gets done.
Look at different things scripturally. Deuteronomy 28.

Then I say something I posted a couple years ago called “WHY I BELIEVE WHAT I BELIEVE.
I changed some things, but the message is still there.Ocassionally I re post it again.

[Joseph Harrolds]

Doesn't matter. What you agree with or believe in doesn't change reality.

I have already acknowledged (in post #55) that many or most on boards such as these disagree with me on this subject.

[Joseph Harrolds]

You did not 'add' to the conservation. Keep it HONEST!! Fat chance of that happening by one void of Truth.

Only Christians are honest?  That's an...interesting point of view, to say the least!

You said in post #37:  "I have NOTHING to discuss with any godless creature! This is a GOD first forum."  You then quoted scripture (2 Cor 6:15) to back this up.  Since then, you have twice responded to my posts.  

Perhaps you should keep it honest in the future...

[Joseph Harrolds]

I congratulate you for your honesty. I hope you won't be too offended by those who will take offense to your honest statement.

Not in the slightest.  After three decades on the internet and usenet, I've grown a rather thick skin in regards to these matters!

[RichSr]

Agreed.
However... there are other things that add to what is .. or what we think may happen.
We all expect we are living in the end time,
we see the times Six days ... what looks like the trib.
But how can we think ... America has been sooo blessed.
Why should HE bless America.... Yet...

[RichSr]

Yesssss.

[RichSr]

Check out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Salvation is the most important thing... everything else is...
Do you spend at least fifteen minutes a day, every day reading your Bible?
If you do you will see how easy it is to read your Bible once every year.

[RichSr]

I think there is something to be said for the time element.
HE took six days to creatthe earth and then “rested”
How ...
The six days (a year for each day...)
When the days get like the days... (I need to look that up w/ my e sword... and Rev is too hard to look that up... it goes back and... then my stroke halds me back.

[Joseph Harrolds]

Do you spend at least fifteen minutes a day, every day reading your Bible?

No, but I don't have a Bible in my personal library.

If you do you will see how easy it is to read your Bible once every year.

Actually, I read the whole thing (KJV) in college around 30 years ago.

[RichSr]

All I can say, brother, is “study the scriptures to show thyself approved, a workman who needeth not tp be ashamed.

I was challenged many years ago to read so much a day; now I (I backslid for a while in scripture reading)now I am back to fifteen minutes every day.
Being forced into retirement when I had so many ... I guess crushed or .. I lost a few inches of height.
Herniated ciscs.
I am now almost eight years “retired”
I try to work bot cannot find any.
But I’m not trying that hard.
I guess I’m gettin lazy.

At least I am trying to save America and preach t/he WORD in season and out.

[hoagy62]

I do believe that God has His ways, and that He will allow stuff to happen to get His point across to as many as possible. I do believe He is good, His ways are always good, His mercy endures forever, and that He has “no pleasure in the death of the wicked”.

That having been said.....

I have posted a few times about the R-74 (Legalizing Same-Sex Marriage) vote coming up in Washington state. I know that there are other ballot issues in other states that are dealing with that issue, but as far as I know, Washington has the best chance of it actually passing. Massive support in the liberal parts of the state for this bill. Money coming in from rich liberals all over the Seattle area...and they’ve got quite a few. The state is poised to be the first state to actually pass this into law by public vote. A major slap in the face to all who regard marriage as sacred.

And then...you look off the coast of Washington....about 80 miles or so. If you’re looking at a geological map, you’ll see this line off the coast. It’s called the Cascadia Subduction Zone. It’s the same type of fault that let go off the coast of Japan a little over a year ago. The Cascadia hasn’t really done anything since 1700. But, when it went that time, they experienced a tsunami because of it...in Japan. Imagine what it did on THIS side of the Pacific. Seismologists say that the Cascadia is overdue for some movement. It has the potential to unleash at least a long-lasting 9.0, perhaps more.

Now....you might call me crazy to suggest that God Himself would use a massive natural disaster to get His point across about this particular issue. But think about it...

The liberals and homosexuals vote R-74 into law, thereby giving a collective middle-finger in the face of God.

God could then use one of His fingers to give a little tap on the Cascadia....

...and mighty, liberal Seattle and likely a good chunk of western Washington would lie in jumbled ruins. Hundreds, possibly thousands dead.

Do I want that to happen? Heck no...I live here. I’m just saying...God has used natural and supernatural means to get his point across to a hard-hearted and unbelieving people. He can do it again. And the truly sad part about it is that many...even some of His own children...won’t realize what the consequences of sin could be. Or, they may not even care.

Until it’s too late.

[RichSr]

I agree
Epicenter was written about that. Joel... Rosen”

Do we have chat capabilities on this ...
That would be nice.
Maybe someone will teach me...

[RichSr]

Sounds like you do not think God matters very much.
I was about ... I don’t know how old I was when I started reading scripturew, but I know it has helped me to improve.
Well, if you were to go to a Dollar Store, you could pick one up for around five bucks. Not a dollar general but a dollar store. I’m not sure if they have ‘em st the d store.
the large prijt cost 10$

[Joseph Harrolds]

Sounds like you do not think God matters very much.

I don't know how to assign the probability that it matters very much; it may or may not matter a great deal, depending on the nature of the God(s) that may or may not exist.

I was about ... I don’t know how old I was when I started reading scripturew, but I know it has helped me to improve.

I haven't been to church since I was a small child, but I did read the Bible as part of the curriculum for a History of Western Civilization class in college.  Did it "improve" me?  I suppose so, in the sense that a basic knowledge of Christianity is essential to understanding Western Civilization.  Beyond that, though....

Well, if you were to go to a Dollar Store, you could pick one up for around five bucks. Not a dollar general but a dollar store. I’m not sure if they have ‘em st the d store.  the large prijt cost 10$

Money is not an issue, I can assure you.  Even if it were, I could have copies of any number of holy scriptures from the KJV of the Bible to the Book of Mormon simply by saying "Yes, I'm interested" when the representatives of these religions come a-knockin' at my door.  For that matter, you can read the Bible (and all the other scriptures) online.  Access is not a problem in today's world!

[PieterCasparzen]

If we are to assume, for purposes of this discussion, that such a being (God) actually exists, then I do honestly want to see God.

...but I don't see such a thing. Now what?

Such logical posts, JH. Brings to mind the Apostle Paul preaching to the Greeks, but I digress.

The Christian is commanded to publish the Word of God, that is, quote from the Bible, to the unbeliever, and to respond to serious requests. The Bible teaches that rude confrontations with unbelievers are not godly, nor is force. (Rom 10:17) "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.".

From there, though we think we may be speaking with a vile person most forcibly against the Gospel, the person may become more interested.

The Word of God divides:

Heb 4:12 "For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart."

(quick above means alive)

Upon hearing God's Word, a person will either accept or reject it as time goes on. I can't cause a person to convert. I'm simply putting the Word of God out there, publishing it as the Bible commands. From there, God's Holy Spirit will work according to his will.

An indepth study of the Book of Romans is an excellent guide to understanding the doctrine of salvation through Christ Jesus.

The Bible teaches that man's mind, body and spirit are fallen, i.e., sinful. Sinful man rejects God. By the Grace and mercy of God, it is God's Holy Spirit that draws men to him.

Man is arrogant and stubborn. Like a wilful child, he wants to believe that he is not subject to God, but can make his own choices, even make his own rules. Many professing Christians even feel this way. In his mind he can and does make choices and rules of his own; that is why he is without excuse. But man exists within the reality that we see. God has created this reality, so is it possible that he does not control it ? When you think about that for a moment it makes no sense. On the one hand we would be saying that God is all-powerful, yet on the other we are saying that we can overcome his power - since we must decide to accept God, or "let him in", as though God wants in, but we, proud and strong people, can keep him out. This type of heresy is very prevalant in America starting in the 1800's.

There is no way to rationalize belief in an all-powerful God on the one hand, but believing individual people can overcome his will on the other. Many professing Christians are frightened of the idea of predestination. They hate the thought of their life being all planned out, even if planned out by God whom they a) profess to believe in and b) acknowledge is almighty, maker of heaven and earth and of infinite wisdom, strength and mercy and whose justice is perfect. We've grown up in a country that teaches that we can be anything we want to, when really it's we can aspire to whatever we want to. We're a nation of people who want to reserve the right to grab life by the horns, take off on a new endeavor and take a chance on success - which is wonderful in and of itself - but we are thinking of this from our perspective. No one wants to die, but everyone wants to go to heaven. The thought of the date and time of our death being predetermined really rubs us the wrong way; we want to at least "have a chance" - maybe we'll survive the accident, sickness or surgery. But when one actually reads the Bible, and does not cherry-pick verses to prove our own idea, but instead reads everything - in context - first off, we're clueless. We generally need some help, that's why the Bible is studied, and millions of scholars have studied before us. One would not study engineering or law without being "well-read" and instructed, we can't expect to understand the Bible very well unless we study it and avoid teachers that are charlatans. Before I go inventing my own ideas in any field I check out what the leaders of the field have to say, verifying one against the other each step as I go. One essential point to understanding the Bible is to have access to all the cross references. There are literally thousands of verses that quote from or make references to other verses, and the full meaning only comes to light often after reading up to a chapter or more of the reference so one can understand the context and meaning also of the referenced text. Of course, Bible commentaries, being not divinely inspired, are not the absolute authoritative book, but the Bible itself is.

When we actually read Scripture, it tells us that God knows us before we are born and he appoints the hour of our death. And, after death, men most definitely can not save themselves but will be either with the Lord or eternally out of his presence. This is all very much in line logically with the doctrine of original sin. The Bible does not teach a belief in the "basic goodness" of people or any other such "feel good" heresy. All throughout, a common theme is the sinful nature of man. A happy and a hopeful people can sometimes forget that they place their hope in God: not in chance, not in themselves, not in their country, not in their ancestors, not in their technology. In our "I'm ok, you're ok" world of today, people can be shocked when they hear the whole message of the Gospel. I think one of the big deceptions that comes into play today is people's faith in our current "modern" technology. They think that anything more than 50 years old is primitive. And they think that today science and technology are all powerful; as a child I was quite confident that modern science would add hundreds of years to my life, and from there, it would be relatively easy for science to discover how to physically live forever. Now my mind and body is scared just from thinking about how fragile the balance is of so many intricate mechanisms that must function flawlessly just to keep me from some horrible disease or condition. Youth thinks it is invincible, we are oblivious to how our life could be snuffed out like the swatting of a fly by any one of a seemingly infinite set of possibilities. Throughout the Bible we see one chapter after another repeat the message that God cares for his own as a father cares for his children; though the children of God have adversity, he gives them all they need to persevere and comforts them throughout. He wishes that we seek Him and his heavenly Kingdom, however, rather than obstinately striking out on our own.

The Reformation of the Church began as early as the 1300's, the first notable person off the top of my head is William of Ockham, whose life story is a fascinating read.

Scripture teaches that if the congregation we belong to teaches heresies, we should leave it.

The Reformers wanted to reform the Church. Why ? They, being educated in Biblical doctrine (teaching), did a crazy thing. They actually started to think when they saw various things going on within the Church that appeared to be inconsistent with the Bible. They prayed, thought, researched, they studied the Bible and scholarly commentary going all the way back to time of the Apostles (who were personally instructed by our Lord). Try as they might, there was no reconciling certain things to Scripture. They tried to institute Reforms to rid the Church of it's innovations, but ultimately were unsuccessful with that, and, since the Bible teaches that the true believer will be obedient to the Word of God, they had to break away from the RCC and found new Churches. From certain points of view, there were reasons why the Church resisted correction, so the wise researcher will learn from their research and not get bogged down in animosity. All of the doctrine that was reverted back to during the Reformation comes right from Scripture.

The Book of Ecclesiastes provides incredible help in understanding the Bibles messages.

I can heartily recommend reading about the Reformation (patiently, the notable ones) side by side with King James Bible with cross references. If you research these things you should come across the reasons why I recommend them. Matthew Henry has an excellent commentary, there are other Reformed commentaries.

[Yosemitest]

I'm not familiar with chat.
Just make your comments and questions, or use private reply.
It's a little slow, but it'll work.
Teaching isn't my strong point, but I'll try to help you find answers.

[presently no screen name]

I mean every word of it! What you do is not my problem nor concern.

What 'you think' pushes people away is no concern to me either! People who want Truth are attracted to those who have it, I know because I experience it all the time.

I've spent most of my lifetime with atheists and agnostics

You, obviously, have much in common with them and I can see the effect they have on you. You are into 'coddling'.