What's really sick is that he seems to be enjoying himself!
Posted on 04/22/2007 2:04:18 PM PDT by M203M4
This is addressed to conservatives - if, in the last few months, you have used the phrase "because he is the only one who can win against Hillary" (some "victory"...), or some variation, don't bother reading this, it will not do you any good. You and your ilk, by helping engineer a putrid path of least resistance for the lumbering political bureaucracy to follow, are responsible for the leftward drift of the American conservatism movement, and will be as long as it is aligned with the Republican party. Go advertise the latest poll.
Forward: (tone)
There is a whiff of schism on Free Republic regarding the 2008 presidential primaries. Social (Burkean) conservatives especially are (rightfully!) of the mind that Rudy Giuliani, the current clear leader in a crowded field, does not represent our side on many core issues - abortion, gay marriage, and illegal immigration in particular.
His fiscally conservative credentials are not stellar either (enviro-syndrome anyone?), but, unlike his social views, they are adequate. On matters of (non-economic) liberty, he is harder to read, but potentially disastrous; from his gun-control lunacy (and knife-control lunacy), to less important but equally revealing matters such as banning the playing of road hockey on city streets, Rudy could well turn out be a police-statist more than willing to trade liberty for order, much to the chagrin of some of his pushers of libertarian bent. I would ask such members of the conservative coalition to take another look before lining up to support him.
Rudy is hard to pin down ideologically precisely because he does not fit into either of the traditional camps composing modern conservatism (and make no mistake - BOTH camps are needed for conservatives, as modernly defined, to win any election) - he is neither Burkean (social conservative: camp A) nor right-libertarian (fiscal conservative + personal freedoms: camp B). Instead, he embraces a handful of tenets from both camps. From the Burkean side, Rudy clearly accepts the notion that the government should have a very free hand in establishing order, while from the libertarian side, he has accepted the free-market, free-enterprise notions of capitalism (potentially less so on property rights). A defender of morality? A defender of (non-economic) liberty? A resounding No! on both counts, at least explicitly.
Just pulling numbers out of the air, suppose this means that camp A is in 25% agreement with Rudy on the core issues, and camp B is in 55% agreement on the core issues (for comparison, Hillary might be 5% and 5%). For those of you primarily in camp B that support Rudy for holding up "most of your side of the issues", while expecting social conservatives to hold their nose more than twice as hard as you out of politically expediency and pull the lever for Rudy, I have a scenario for you to consider. It may be instructive to social conservatives as well.
End of forward.
Bizarro Rudy
Imagine a politician, say a governor or recent senator, 60ish, 4 kids, devout Baptist, married for 40 years, and running for president. His platform is 100% pro-life, 100% against homosexuality, wants a religiously active government, mostly against illegal immigration (moderate), and mostly for traditional roles for women. He is a "moderate" on gun control (supports AWB, supports CCW with registration, supports gun-free zones)
Suppose also, however, that he supports increasing taxes (making them more "progressive" - tax the rich more), providing universal medical coverage, expanding welfare, taxing and increasing the regulation of corporations, spending more on third-world aid, focusing national efforts on combating global warming, increasing estate taxes, and interested in the nationalization of some industries. He would talk about economic policy in terms of 'social justice' and 'fairness', while calling capitalism "corrupt, soulless, and amoral."
Call him what you want - religious leftist, Christian socialist. Would any conservatives in attendance push for such a candidate to be the nominee? Would any conservatives present vote for him in the general election if he were the Republican nominee against Hillary? Just pretend he is ahead in the polls right now.
Because that is, in some sense, analogous to what social conservatives are expected to do with respect to Rudy's candidacy. Neither candidate is good for conservatism.
You won't need a flame suit for your thread. The Rudy haters will be licking your feet in a minute! LOL! And us Rudy people (if there are any left) will be watchng the festivities from afar. Enjoy! They will all agree with you.
After last night, that's a pretty big if.
Actually about 5 definitly on the ping list got banned the others I have no idea who they are. They are not on my ping list. But they are brave souls. That’s okay I expect a total purge of the Rudy ping list and myself.
Keep yer’ head down 51... ;)
For myself, I put it more simply.
Rudy Giuliani is the Candidate of Last Resort.
IF he wins the nomination—something I hope will not happen—and he’s the only realistic way of fending off President Hildebeast, then I’ll vote for him. And I won’t like it one bit. In the meantime, I’ll educate myself more on the candidates, and support more conservative ones, right now, meaning Hunter and Thompson. (But not Hunter Thompson. He’s dead. Although I might want to vote for him anyway if it comes down to Rudy vs. Hillary.)
Here’s another Bizarro World experiment for Rudy supporters. Suppose, in Bizarro America, Tom Tancredo comes out of nowhere to win the Republican nomination for President, and he has the backing of enough Republicans and independents that he has a good shot at winning against whichever Democratic candidate is fielded. (Remember, I DID say it was Bizarro America.) Would YOU support HIM? Because the flipside of that is sort of what you’re asking social conservatives to do with Rudy.
Let me drag out the all caps here for a second:
CONSERVATIVES DO NOT WIN ELECTIONS BY PANDERING TO THE SQUISHY MIDDLE. CONSERVATIVES WIN ELECTIONS BY CONVINCING THE SQUISHY MIDDLE WHY OUR IDEAS ARE BETTER.
That’s it. Nobody did it better than Ronald Reagan. Don’t slide left. Don’t pretend to be a “moderate.” Take your conservatism and be proud of it, and SELL IT.
}:-)4
Don’t slide left. Don’t pretend to be a “moderate.” Take your conservatism and be proud of it, and SELL IT.
Agree 100%.
If Rudy {and his supporters} wish for conservatives to love him. He should run for president............As a Democrat.
I NEVER weigh in on election politics threads because this group has a lot of anger in such discussions — anger that divides us and apparently gets some Freepers banned. But today I have three things to say about this.
1. I believe every Republican candidate is doing what they sincerely believe is the best thing for America and the best thing for the Republican party. I believe they are honest about this, and if their positions change — it’s because a President must lead all the people and he must consider their collective dreams for the future.
2. I believe that we are hurting our own cause with the rabid hatred of certain candidates. It’s not just taking place here on FR — but many Republican venues are tearing into each other over very fine points concerning the candidates. We’re destroying our party from within and polarizing it before the Primaries. This could be toned down.
3. Whomever wins the nomination is who I am going to support and vote for. Please consider that a Republican win could bring in a tremendous showing of Republicans in both the House and Senate. Long term political strategy demands your patience and reason.
Just for the record, I like Romney, but I’m willing to listen to all the candidates. There’s too much at stake here for all this anger.
You should have been thinking about the future while you supported Rudy’s trashing of the BOR. Stop whining!
LOL! Who the heck is whining? LOL! certainly not me.
What's really sick is that he seems to be enjoying himself!
No.
Oh, there are many, many of us left. We probably won't be posting here much longer but we WILL continue to support our party and our candidate. After all the sliming and name calling that has gone on here during the past couple days, I decided to order my RUDY BUMPER STICKERS AND YARD SIGNS today. If I wasn't before, I am now FIRMLY IN Rudy's camp. I guess there is just something Un-American about those who wish to silence people they disagree with.
I am banning MYSELF!! Ta Ta, all you brown-nosed Lemmings! If Jim Robinson wants to lead my party over the cliff, he won't do it with me on board. Hope to run in to you again, A5l! You're a treasure. :)
Hip Hip Hooray!
Hip Hip Hooray!
Hip Hip Hooray!
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/1821435/posts?page=3166
MUST REPEAT!
That’s it. Nobody did it better than Ronald Reagan. Don’t slide left. Don’t pretend to be a “moderate.” Take your conservatism and be proud of it, and SELL IT.
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