UPDATE: Former Judge Asking For Ownership of Pit Bulls To Be Outlawed

Tyler Morning Telegraph ^ | November 12, 2010 | KENNETH DEAN

[brytlea]

There are lots of rabbit trails on the topic. :)

[mmanager]

What ever happened to Chet99?

[LongElegantLegs]

He got zotted by the Big Man.

[70times7]

Were border collies trained NOT to herd people while they were being trained to herd animals?

That strikes me as a rather odd question. It suggests that behavior that was selected for when breeding border collies can be trained out of them. Maybe yes, maybe no, but if that is the case you seem to be conceding that there are traits bred into pit bull terriers. I contend that aggression is a part of the pit breed. Can that aggression be trained out? Maybe yes, maybe no. I think it depends on the level of capability of the owner, and the level of aggression in the dog.

Well said regarding the law that is in question; I agree.

We can agree to disagree on the stats; not because I don't believe what you have written, but because I don't have the time or the interest to go down the "which one is the pit bull" series of pictures, etc. I recognize that there is a bias problem. However, I am still convinced that the aggression bell curve is disproportionately skewed to the right for pits. (heck, based on what owners say, and what I have observed, it may even be a bimodal distribution). The same goes for other breeds. Dachshunds can be nasty and aggressive, but they typically don't shred children when they go bonkers - they just don't have the size or strength to make headlines. OTOH, Rotties do - Dog #2 on the "evil" list.

I wonder, if mistaken identity is one of the primary culprits used against pit bulls, what is the rationale for rottweilers? Pits are being singled out, but Rotties actually do have a problem? What about Chows? Tendencies toward behavior and disposition are part of every breed of dog.

[jy8z]

You're full of it. My neighbors Pitbull is the friendliest dog in the neighborhood. If you want to pet a Pitbull, look at the owner first.

My Pit Bull is very friendly. Yes, he is a Pit Bull that could wreak havoc if raised that way, but I have never told him that he is a Pit Bull. He thinks he is the worlds greatest and most loving dog and he is out to prove it. He constantly seeks love and attention from all. He gets embarrassing when he begs our guests for a pat on the head.

[70times7]

First, I don’t own a pit. Second, my experience with dogs is actually experience, not things I have read in books. None of the pits in any of my training classes ever acted like the dogs you describe. I’m no more willing to pass laws focused on one breed of dog than I am to pass laws banning guns. The vast majority of people touting these laws and crying about the menace posed by “pit bulls” are not dog experts.

Do you actually read what is written? You seem to have debate dyslexia or something mixed w/ a fair amount of cluelessness. I may have to go back and look, but I don't remember describing any specific pit bulls. Better yet, you do it - it will give you a chance to actually read what you didn't, or to review what you didn't understand the first time through. The only specific pit I may have mentioned is probably the sweetest dog I have ever known. If the dogs in your class are nothing like that, you are not tipping the scales in your favor re: reading comprehension and cluelessness.

You have implied that my only experience is "from books". If you actually read my posts you may be surprised to notice that I have a fair amount of direct experience with dogs. Also, my initial reference to reading had to do with the reading of data regarding various breeds. You continually miss the specific point that empirical information drawn from such small sample sizes is useless, and that does include yours.

I don't think breed specific laws are a very good idea either, and I have said so. Again, you seem to have ignored what I wrote, decided my opinion for yourself, and responded accordingly. If this, and "nah nah nah", are the best you can manage you should consider stopping now.

[70times7]

Did he ever post to anything else? I don't recall seeing him on anything but his own pit bull threads.

Regardless of what side one is on, this stuff gets tiresome. Mods may have done him and everyone a favor.

[brytlea]

I have read everything you have posted, I’m not going to reread any of it, you have posted nothing that has made me think you have added anything to these discussions that I have not read in any of these threads over the years. You resort to typical tactics etc. I’m really not interested in debating with you, which is why I may have confused something you said with something someone else said. It all begins to blur together because in the end it’s all the same old junk.
Whatever. If you are a dog expert on pit bulls or dog behavior or genetics you have said nothing that indicates it.

[70times7]

It blurs together because what I said of you is true.

Others have offered cogent opposing arguments here. Solosmoke in particular has written excellent posts that suggest I need to look at some additional information. The comment concerning the Canada ban is particularly intriguing.

You just want to carp about those who disagree with you. You have offered nothing. I suspect it is because you have nothing to offer. If you do not wish to debate why don't you go away?

[LongElegantLegs]

Yeah, he posted other stuff; seemed like a fairly insightful guy, but I guess he went on a Sarah Palin-bashing spree that finally got him zotted.

If this becomes law, Swiper's day are numbered. I'm sure that his death and the loss of my time and the money I've poured into him will result in increased safety for everyone.

[solosmoke]

“That strikes me as a rather odd question. It suggests that behavior that was selected for when breeding border collies can be trained out of them. Maybe yes, maybe no, but if that is the case you seem to be conceding that there are traits bred into pit bull terriers. I contend that aggression is a part of the pit breed. Can that aggression be trained out? Maybe yes, maybe no. I think it depends on the level of capability of the owner, and the level of aggression in the dog.”<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

I believe that dog/animal aggression was bred into the pit bull type (long before they were fighting each other, they made great gripping dogs and ratters), but I don’t think every dog will have that issue, nor do I think most breeders are focusing on that anymore. As for the border collie question, I was referring to the practice of attempting to make pit bulls safe for handling during fights by culling human-aggressive dogs. I don’t think it was ever a safety issue with border collies herding children, which is why I believe they would have no reason to breed them to distinguish between humans and livestock. I think the majority of the problems with other dogs come from people not doing what they need to with socialization and control (incidentally, this is the same for attacks on people, in my opinion). However, it begs the question, what about other breeds that have not been bred for and used in such a way? My mother had a black lab that tried to fight every dog she met, and the only dogs I have been bitten by were dogs that historically were used for companionship or retrieving (except for dachshunds....I don’t know why they seem to hate me so much).

“I wonder, if mistaken identity is one of the primary culprits used against pit bulls, what is the rationale for rottweilers? Pits are being singled out, but Rotties actually do have a problem? What about Chows? Tendencies toward behavior and disposition are part of every breed of dog.”>>>>>>>>>>>

I think there are cases of mistaken identity, but I don’t think that’s the biggest issue. Even if we were to correctly identify every single dog, pit bulls would still probably lead the way in bites due to their popularity. From what I have read, there are many areas where pit bulls outnumber even labs, and if shelters are any indication of what’s on the streets (which I believe they are), they represent the majority of medium to large breeds. As for rotties, I think they too are often misidentified. My husband was attacked by a dog when he was a child, and he believed it was a pit bull. Turns out, after looking at a dog breed book, he found it was a rottie that had bitten him. I think people that are really not into those dogs might not be able to distinguish between “tough” looking breeds. I know there are many who cannot tell the difference between a rottie and a dobie, considering color over body type. Then you have dog owners who are told by shelter workers that their dogs are something entirely different when they adopt, making things even worse, as I am sure they want to believe that these “professionals” are correct.

As for the aggression issue, I believe we are simply seeing a symptom of the culture that goes along with owning status breeds more than inheritance-driven problems. The reason I believe this is because the CDC and JAVMA studies show that far beyond the breed of dog involved in fatalities, there is a definite pattern of irresponsibility in every attack that covers all breeds. This is something that many areas banning breeds have failed to recognize, and I believe this is why BSL has been largely ineffective in reducing attack numbers. It all comes back to accountability, an idea that seems to be sadly lacking in today’s society.

[LoneRangerMassachusetts]

“pitbull mix”, etc....but to pretend like there is not a problem with the breed is ludicrous.

Dog Whisperer Caesar Milan often used a Pit Bull named Daddy to calm problem dogs in his TV series. You seem to be very guilty of ignoring the problem of irresponsible owners.

[70times7]

What you have written seems reasonable to me.

Do you have links you can send me for the CDC and JAVMA studies? I would speculate that almost any attack is going to involve owner negligence - failure to contain the animal, etc. - so I wonder if that is fully valid as a counter argument.

It's reasonable expect that breed specific attacks would be greater in number for a popular dog - that's why golden attacks were high a number of years ago. My concern is that pit attacks seem to be disproportionately high.

I think we are in agreement that:
Owner self discipline to properly train and monitor any dog varies - a lot.
Proper owner training and attention can reduce the aggressiveness and/or ability of a dog to do damage.
Dog temperament and tendencies can vary quite a bit within a breed and even more across all dogs.
Individual breeds have specific traits and behaviors.
There are variations in the mean for temperament between breeds - some breeds, as a group, are inherently more aggressive than others.
A breed specific law, such as the one proposed in Texas, is a bad idea.

Where we probably do not agree is our conclusions of where that mean value is for pits. As stated earlier, the distribution may even be bimodal.

[solosmoke]

Here are a few links for you. I know I have more around, but these are good as well:

This link is to the AVMA’s proposed solution to the dog bite problem, as well as great information regarding annual bite rates, hospitalizations, and several types of legislation (and the pros and cons).

http://www.avma.org/public_health/dogbite/dogbite.pdf

Even though I don’t like linking to this site (lawyer sites tend to put things in ways that might be more profitable to them, but this one does have quite a bit of good information, aside of the fallacious Merritt Clifton study). This is the AVMA study done on dog bite fatalities. Often, bsl supporters use quotes from this study and the CDC study below (out of context) to try and show the dangerousness of certain breeds, but if you have the time to read it all the way through, you will see that the authors came to a different conclusion:

http://www.dogbitelaw.com/dogbreeds.pdf

Here is a link to a CDC study on dog bites indicating the types of risk factors involved in dog bites. Notice the similarity in the percentages of dogs that were intact, chained, off property, and the percentage of very young children involved in the incidents.

http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/duip/dog50.pdf

Here is a link to the CDC study done in Denver, after the pit bull ban was enacted. Because of the ban, the type of dog involved in the majority of incidents is different, but the situational details seem to be the same:

http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/duip/dog3.pdf

Let me know if the links work or not. I am on the computer all day, yet I don’t seem to be capable of learning how to use it properly.

[70times7]

They work - interesting data.

Thanks

[kanawa]

LOL!