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Majorcan Descendants of Spanish Jews Who Converted Are Recognized as Jews
The New York Times ^ | 10 July 2011 | DOREEN CARVAJAL

Posted on 07/10/2011 7:04:06 PM PDT by Palter

Centuries after the Spanish Inquisition led to the forced conversion of Jews to Catholicism, an ultra-orthodox rabbinical court in Israel has issued a religious ruling that recognizes descendants from the insular island of Majorca as Jews.

The opinion focused narrowly on the Majorcan community of about 20,000 people known as chuetas and did not apply to descendants of Sephardic Jewish converts in mainland Spain or the broader diaspora of thousands of others who scattered to the Ottoman Empire and the Spanish colonies in South and North America.

The island, isolated until a tourist boom that began in the late 1960s, is a sociological preserve for descendants of Jews who formed an insular community of Catholic converts that intermarried through the centuries because of religious persecution and discrimination that barred them from holding certain positions in the Roman Catholic Church through the 20th century. Most carry the names of 15 families with ancestors who were tried and executed during the 17th century for practicing Judaism.

The religious court in Israel, led for more than 40 years by Rabbi Nissim Karelitz, sent another rabbi to the island in May to explore its warren of streets where a synagogue once stood and to examine the family trees of some of the chuetas who trace lineage back 500 years.

In a two-paragraph opinion — typical of the private rabbinical court that deals with matters of conversions, marriage conflicts and financial disputes — Rabbi Karelitz issued a statement that said because of the intermarriage patterns of the chuetas, “all those who are related to the former generations are Jews.”

(Excerpt) Read more at nytimes.com ...


TOPICS: History; Religion
KEYWORDS: apologists; faithandphilosophy; godsgravesglyphs; israel; jews; romancatholic; spain
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1 posted on 07/10/2011 7:04:15 PM PDT by Palter
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To: Palter
"Centuries after the Spanish Inquisition led to the forced conversion of Jews to Catholicism,...

When the first line of the story only repeats an age old lie you know the rest of the story isn't worth reading...

2 posted on 07/10/2011 7:07:39 PM PDT by Natural Law (For God so loved the world He did not send a book.)
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To: Natural Law

When the first line of the story only repeats an age old lie
Who says it is?
3 posted on 07/10/2011 7:09:47 PM PDT by Olog-hai
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To: Palter
Centuries after the Spanish Inquisition led to the forced conversion of Jews to Catholicism

Not precisely a correct depiction of history.

The Jews in Spain were given the choice of converting to Catholicism or leaving Spain.

The commonly held notion that Jews were tortured and forced to renounce their religion and become Catholics is untrue.

4 posted on 07/10/2011 7:10:42 PM PDT by Pontiac (The welfare state must fail because it is contrary to human nature and diminishes the human spirit.)
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To: Palter

“Centuries after the Spanish Inquisition led to the forced conversion of Jews to Catholicism,”

Nonsense! Jews starting converting many years BEFORE the inquisition was founded in the late 15th century in Spain. Most conversions were in the 13th and 14th centuries. Some Jews converted under feelings of duress, but many converted freely.


5 posted on 07/10/2011 7:13:59 PM PDT by vladimir998 (Sweden - one of the next Muslim countries)
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To: Olog-hai
Who says it is?

Roman Catholics who think that 1,700 years of church history is pristine.

Anyone who has read the writings of the Jewish sages in Spain can read the history of a severly persecuted people, no matter what Roman Catholic revisionism tries to do.
6 posted on 07/10/2011 7:14:10 PM PDT by Tzfat
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To: Pontiac

I don’t know the number that creates the myth, but certainly, many Jews were burned at the stake and others converted from such threats. Are you saying that didn’t happen?


7 posted on 07/10/2011 7:14:57 PM PDT by Palter (Celebrate diversity .22, .223, .25, 9mm, .32 .357, 10mm, .44, .45, .500)
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To: Olog-hai; Natural Law

You wrote:

“Who says it is?”

Well, some reputable Jewish historians do. Look at Henry Kamen’s 1998 book called Spanish Inquisition.


8 posted on 07/10/2011 7:21:09 PM PDT by vladimir998 (Sweden - one of the next Muslim countries)
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To: Palter

· GGG managers are SunkenCiv, StayAt HomeMother, and Ernest_at_the_Beach ·
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Thanks Palter!

Just adding to the catalog, not sending a general distribution.

To all -- please ping me to other topics which are appropriate for the GGG list.
 

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9 posted on 07/10/2011 7:23:21 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (Yes, as a matter of fact, it is that time again -- https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/)
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To: Tzfat

You wrote:

“Roman Catholics who think that 1,700 years of church history is pristine.”

So why do Jewish historians like Kamen say it then?

“Anyone who has read the writings of the Jewish sages in Spain can read the history of a severly persecuted people, no matter what Roman Catholic revisionism tries to do.”

No one denies the persecution. It is a matter of the source. The inquisition did not forcibly convert Jews. It had no authority over people who were not baptized unless they somehow violated the natural law. Thus, a Jew, who just practiced Judaism and minded his own business could not legally be forced to do anything by any inquisitor.


10 posted on 07/10/2011 7:25:50 PM PDT by vladimir998 (Sweden - one of the next Muslim countries)
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To: Palter
Christopher Columbus departed Spain
on the 1st of Av 5252( Aug 3rd, 1492 CE ).

This was the last day for all Jews
to leave Spain under pain of death.

Could it be that many of his sailors were Jews.

shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach

11 posted on 07/10/2011 7:29:05 PM PDT by Uri’el-2012 (Psalm 119:174 I long for Your salvation, YHvH, Your law is my delight.)
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To: Palter; Pontiac

You wrote:

“I don’t know the number that creates the myth, but certainly, many Jews were burned at the stake and others converted from such threats. Are you saying that didn’t happen?”

I’ll say it - it didn’t happen - on the part of the inquisition. The inquisition only had authority over baptized Christians. No Jew was ever burned at the stake by the inquisition for refusing to convert to Christianity. Those who were threatened into converting were threatened into converting in the 13th and 14th centuries by civilians in pogroms. The inquisition was established in the late 15th century. One of the reasons why it was founded in Spain was to stop abuses of converted Jews by Old Christians.


12 posted on 07/10/2011 7:29:29 PM PDT by vladimir998 (Sweden - one of the next Muslim countries)
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To: Palter
Are you saying that didn’t happen?

I am not saying that Jews were not persecuted. I am saying that the order of events is incorrect.

The Jews in Spain were given the choice of converting to Catholicism or leaving Spain.

Many Jews converted because as was the custom across the world at the time, if you left a country by royal decree your lands and wealth were forfeit. So convert or leave Spain as a pauper. Wealthy Jews understandably converted.

Many Jews were baptized and then continued to practice their religion in secret.

So King Ferdinand requested permission from the Pope for the Inquisition. The Pope reluctantly gave his permission. So many Jews were left open for persecution either because they still practiced their religion or simply because they were accused by rivals or suspicious neighbors.

I object to news papers continuing to print flawed history. Get your facts right or get out of the business.

And as far as “many” Jews being burned at the stake the number is widely exaggerated. It is at most 300 over 356 years. Not a small number when talking about individuals but certainly a tiny number when talking about man's inhumanity to man throughout history.

13 posted on 07/10/2011 7:30:18 PM PDT by Pontiac (The welfare state must fail because it is contrary to human nature and diminishes the human spirit.)
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To: Tzfat
Amazingly only Christians and Moslems were allowed to be princes and potentates in Spain during most of the Middle Ages ~ and only they were allowed to engage in agriculture, or run farms and manors, or cattle ranches.

Jews were pretty much restricted to MAKING STUFF and LEARNING ~ or TRADING.

There are quite elaborate laws regarding how things got "turned over" when a Christian prince conquered a Moslem principality, or vice versa.

Jews were left right where they were ~ so they could be taxed.

Obviously there were folks who managed to "convert", but the greater part of the literature on the matter suggests that Jews couldn't convert if they wanted to until the late 1400s. The Crown issued an edict that told them to convert, and evidence is most Jews converted to Christianity, as did Moslems. There were remarkably few people expelled.

Some analysts of this question have come to the conclusion that about 1/4 of the Spanish population is descended in whole or in part from Jews, with another large chunk being descended from Arabs and North Africans.

The smart guys went to the colonial empire as it developed.

It's worth reading about the Inquisition. Yes, it was bad, but not as bad as it's portrayed. It wouldn't hold a candle to the slightest of atrocities commited by the Nazis several centuries later.

Medieval Spain was considered quite Progressive by just about everybody alive at the time who could read and write and travel.

None of these places were anything you'd wanted to live in ~ compared to today ~ maybe like palaces stuck in the mud surrounded by dusty farmland with impoverished peasants and lots of pigs.

14 posted on 07/10/2011 7:31:20 PM PDT by muawiyah
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To: vladimir998

Your grasp of history is better than mine.


15 posted on 07/10/2011 7:31:23 PM PDT by Palter (Celebrate diversity .22, .223, .25, 9mm, .32 .357, 10mm, .44, .45, .500)
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To: UriÂ’el-2012

You wrote:

“Could it be that many of his sailors were Jews.”

Unlikely since Columbus and the leaders of his expedition were committed to Christianity. Columbus believed he was specially chosen by God to bring the Gospel to the East.
Columbus’ Book of Prophecies is a study of the prophets of the Old Testament and the teaching of Christ about the duty to proclaim the Gospel to all nations. Columbus was a devout Catholic who attended Mass and received Holy Communion regularly. Columbus was a Third Order Franciscan who believed that the world should be converted to Christ.
Columbus’ journal in 1492, day after day, refers to Jesus and the need for divine help.


16 posted on 07/10/2011 7:35:02 PM PDT by vladimir998 (Sweden - one of the next Muslim countries)
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To: muawiyah

You wrote:

“Obviously there were folks who managed to “convert”, but the greater part of the literature on the matter suggests that Jews couldn’t convert if they wanted to until the late 1400s.”

Jews converted in droves in the 13th and 14th centuries.

“The Crown issued an edict that told them to convert, and evidence is most Jews converted to Christianity, as did Moslems. There were remarkably few people expelled.”

Half converted and half left. See Henry Kamen, Spanish Inquisition (1998) pages 29-31.


17 posted on 07/10/2011 7:40:24 PM PDT by vladimir998 (Sweden - one of the next Muslim countries)
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To: vladimir998
Spain continued to have substantial populations of Moslems right through the 1400s ~ The Reconquista took about 700 years and over that time remarkable customs grew up to mitigate the damage to society that would ensue if people failed to be tolerant to one another.

Jews benefited, as did Christians and Moslems. The North African Islamofascist dictators actually invaded Spain once to straighten out the Moslems and bring them back into conformance with Islamic law.

I referred to it above ~ but there was even a custom, with laws, governing "forced conversions" ~ and I'd guess the new local prince would make some decisions on the basis of whether or not he liked ham and eggs for breakfast.

By the time Ferdinand and isabella wrapped up the Reconquista most of the hard part had been done and people were "converted" according to law ~ with the Jews still having an exceptional status because they'd been prohibited entry into the mainstreams of Spanish society for hundreds of years.

The final forced conversion (or expulsion) was probably more of an afterthought about straightening out the kingdom than anything done in anger.

To a degree it was progressive in the sense it did offer Jews a way to enter Spanish society ~ which was shortly to become the wealthiest and most powerful on Earth!

18 posted on 07/10/2011 7:41:24 PM PDT by muawiyah
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To: Palter
an ultra-orthodox rabbinical court

The Slimes just can't help themselves. The must throw the unnecessary modifier "ultra" in there - just to let you know their editorial board's opinion.

19 posted on 07/10/2011 7:42:50 PM PDT by eclecticEel (Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness: 7/4/1776 - 3/21/2010)
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To: vladimir998
That's a rough estimation. The problem is the absence of any good censuses in the period. Plus, nobody really knew how many Jews were there.

A Russian Jewish friend of mine once spent quite a bit of time reading through Jewish genealogies and family stories in Moscow that dated back to Spain.

He was quite astounded to find out how open all of this was ~ not at all like a really oppressed minority fleeing the ovens.

BTW, I doubt any almost any sort of estimations that involve the last half the 14th Century and the first half of the 15th Century. The plague definitely tipped a lot of scales.

20 posted on 07/10/2011 7:46:04 PM PDT by muawiyah
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