Posted on 05/29/2015 3:58:26 PM PDT by BruceDeitrickPrice
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I don't either.
Maybe, just maybe, institutionalizing children isn't the reason these children are learning. Maybe, just maybe, it is due to the hard work **all** of these parents do **in the HOME**! Maybe the parents, tutors, and kid are doing **all** the hard work and the institutional school takes all the credit.
It's been my observation that academically homeschooled kids and institutional-schooled kids are spending the **same** amount of time **in the HOME*** studying at the kitchen table. They also come from families that share similar educational values. This is likely what you are seeing.
Questions:
So?...Is it possible that Americans are spending up to $30,000/year/kid for government institutional schooling and the institutional schooling is teaching the kids very little?
Is it possible that the parents, tutors, and the child himself, are really doing the hard work of teaching and learning in the HOME?
Is it possible that the only thing institutional schools do is send home a very expensive curriculum for the child to follow in the HOME?
Every teacher and principal who has done this is a LIAR! That is almost all of them. It is extremely hurtful to the child and teachers and principals **willingly** continue in this work and do it for money, generous vacations, and a nice pension.
Chances are, if you are speaking with a government teacher, you are speaking to a LIAR who hurts kids.
Everyone else in America has managed to find work that doesn't hurt kids. Teachers and principals could, too.
Count me in. A decade or so ago when my kids were competing (and often winning) spelling and math competitions, one school really stood out. It’s called The Imani School. All black, from what I could tell. The kids they sent to the competitions (usually the only blacks there) sat quietly when expected (unlike many, if not most, other), and then kicked butt in the competitions. When they won, they weren’t as quiet then, which is a good thing.
From the research that I’ve been able to do, The Imani School simply uses common sense - Phonics, and math without calculators. Their kids were amazing and will give anyone believing in the Bell Curve something to think about.
http://www.imanischool.org/student-life/victories.cfm
So, I’m sure that your deliberate and repeated use of the word “institutionalize” was just a slip of the tongue, and not meant to compare public schools to prisons and mental institutions. I will note, though, that private schools, religious schools, and charter schools are “institutions” as well.
Do kids learn better if their parents are involved and they study at home? Does the sun rise in the East? Of course they do. That’s why middle and upper middle class kids do better than lower class kid, regardless of what “institution” they go to for schooling.
Having said all that, I really don’t understand your point. Is it that ALL “institutional” schools are worthless and that EVERYBODY needs to home school? Because, as I stated earlier, private, religious, and charter schools are all “institutions” as well.
It is not a “slip of the tongue”. This is what government schooling is! Institutionalized schooling. Yes, in many ways it does resemble prison. All First Amendment Rights are strictly suppressed. Assembly is tightly controlled. The children are force fed a godless and secular worldview with non-neutral content and consequences. Religious expression, if not completely forbidden, is suppressed. Exercise and rest is dictated by government functionaries. School buses look like prison transport but are less safe. And...Even the school exercise yards look like prison recreation areas.
Yes, many private schools follow the Prussian-model of schooling. There is one very big difference. They are **freely** chosen by the parents as the best setting for their child. Teachers and principals are not agents of the police state and, therefore the child is not conditioned to be compliant to the whims of government toadies ( oops! “functionaries”). The child is not there due to threat of police and court action. And...The taxpayer is not forced by threat of police and court action to pay for them .
Re: Parental involvement
No study has ever been done to determine exactly where the child is acquiring his knowledge (Home? Institutional school?) or who is doing the teaching (teacher, parents, paid or unpaid tutors, study clubs as is common among Asians, or the child doing home assignments)
The **point** is that we may be paying up to $30,000/year/child for government institutional schooling that may be entirely INEFFECTIVE! It is entirely possible that the only thing government institutional schooling does is send home a very expensive curriculum that caring parents and diligent kids follow **in the HOME**!
( Capitals for emphasis only.)
Obviously, the government institutional schools aren't teaching. It's the parents who are.
RE: “sorry, I get pretty damn emotional about this”
Me, too. Everyone should get emotional about whether children are learning to read or not.
Thanks for the comment.
My understanding of the law is that there is a requirement for the children to be in school, not just a public school. If this was not so, there would not be any alternative schools. I **freely** chose to enroll my children in public schools. I could just as well have **freely** chosen to enroll them in religious, charter, or other private choices, or home schooled them.
I don’t understand why you refer to public schools as a Prussian model when the level of discipline is often much higher in a private setting (ever been to a Catholic school?). As I stated earlier, you can choose either a public school or a private school, the government coercion is for schooling, not just public schools.
Your big point is that the government institutional schooling may be entirely INEFFECTIVE. It may not just as well. This statement (may be INEFFECTIVE - you can drive a Mack truck through the word “may”) is also true of any alternative, be it private or home schooling.
Again, what’s your point? Because public schooling MAY be ineffective, just trash it? Since private schooling MAY be ineffective as well, let’s just trash it, too. We are then left with home schooling. I will tell you right now that I did not have the time, inclination, or training to serve as my kid’s sole schooling. In my personal case I can tell you that our local public schools (along with our parental involvement, of course) did a very good job of educting my children. The results (3 bachelor’s degrees, and gainful employment) seem to bear that out.
Let’s turn this on it’s head..”If home school/religious school/private school don’t learn, then they are failures. Every method of teaching has failures. If you’re goal is 100% success, everyone is a failure. Or are you going to tell me that every home schooled (or private school, or religious school) student succeeds?
Your last sentence “Obviously, the government institutional schools aren’t teaching. It’s the parents who are.” is simply not true. Even though I and my wife helped at home, I will guarantee you that I did not teach my kids algebra, trigonometry, or biology. The teachers at their high school did, just as their elementary and middle school teachers did most of the teaching in their subjects. The fact that we helped them study at home in no way refutes that.
Other parents are not able to ransom their children from the government's godless and socialist-entitlement institutional schools. These children are under police threat to attend. If they don't police and court action will be taken against the parents and child. It is sad, but these children **will** learn to think and reason godlessly. They must just to cooperate in the godless classroom. How could it be otherwise?
Re: Charters
There are no private or government anointed and godless charter schools in many counties. Mine is one. Since government institutional schooling is a price-fixed cartel that is giving its service away for tuition-free, it is unlikely that a private school will be able to compete here.
Re: Prussian model
Please educate yourself on the origins of compulsory government schooling. John Gatto is a good place to start. It is impossible for me, in this type of forum to take responsibility for your education. You must do this yourself.
Re: Ineffective government institutional schooling
No studies have been done to test the effectiveness, therefore, it is UNKNOWN if government schools are effective or not. We are spending up to $30,000/child/year on a program that has never been proven to be effective or not.
My point is that it is UNKNOWN if all the money spent on government institutional schooling is effective. No one knows where the child is acquiring his knowledge ( home or institutional school) and who is doing the real teaching ( parents, paid or unpaid tutors, study clubs as is common among Asians, or the child himself doing home assignments). Without studying this issue who knows? Answer: No one!
Finally.....If schools can't teach children who have crappy parents then why do we assume they are teaching kids with great parents? Without studies to show where and who is teaching the child it is UNKNOWN how any child is learning anything.
But...we DO know that government schools are doing a very poor job with kids from homes that are less than ideal homes. That is well documented.
Re: Your kids
It's impossible to do double blind educational studies on kids. So....We can't know how your or my kids would have done in different setting.
Multiple degrees is not necessarily a measure of success for many Americans. It may be to a secularist. How nice for the secularists that the government establishes their non-neutral religious worldview in its indoctrination camps.
Well.....My homeschooled kids did not attend the godless government schools are were not forced to think and reason godlessly. My husband and I were lucky enough to be able to ransom them from the government's non-neutral religious content and non-neutral religious consequences. Those who can't will be subject to the government's non-neutral religious worldview. All married within our religious tradition to wonderful spouses and are raising their children in this tradition.
All three homeschoolers finished Calculus 3 and all college general courses by the age of 15. Two had B.S. degrees in mathematics by the age of 18. One earned a masters in math by the age of 20. The youngest is now working on a second degree in mechanical engineering and is close to finishing. The oldest has a masters in accounting. He was a internationally and nationally ranked athlete and traveled the world representing the U.S. All three speak two languages.
How do you **know** that it was the teachers who taught the math? Where are the studies? How do you **know** that the school didn't just send home the curriculum? Certainly, your children did homework IN THE HOME from textbooks. With testing the child before the class, immediately after class, and then after studying the chapter and working the problems in the home, it is impossible to know where the child acquired his knowledge.
Personally, having a goodly amount of math and math based science, I testify that 95% of the math I learned I taught myself. The teacher was there merely as a reinforcement. The real learning took place **before** class by studying the chapter and working the problems, and then again after class by working the problems again and again.
This is an assumption on your part.
Without testing the child before class, immediately after class, and then again after studying the text and doing projects in the home, it is impossible to know who did the teaching or where the learning occurred.
If you’re goal is 100%
Every method of teaching has failures.
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I can’t chase a strawman of your creation. At no time did I state that my goal was 100% success.
The success rate in the government’s inner city institutional school is considerably less than 100%.
Yes, I was commenting on hooked on phonics, “as seen on TV”.
agreed...one way of solving this problem is for teachers to loop their class for a few years. That means you have the same instructor team for at least three years.. generally a main lesson teacher and specialty teachers for subjects. The teachers and students form stronger relationships and there isn’t the same impetus to promote the problem students, as you will have to deal with them again next year.
You’re welcome...it’s unreal to me that tolerate this end-run around us (the anti-whole language people). But they will NEVER STOP in trying to prevent our kids from learning to read early, never.
So, let’s try to address all of your point is in a single response.
“Godless and Socialist-entitlement institutional schools”. Which religious doctrines are we to teach? I myself am Roman Catholic. I assume that we probably have some major differences of opinion on biblical interpretation. Father Cantos from St. Demetrios Greek Orthodox church would probably have disagreements with both of us (we can’t even agree on what date Easter is!). So which of us wins? Wouldn’t it be better for the children to learn specifics of THEIR religion from their churches and parents, rather than at school?
As far as your statement that children in …”the godless government schools are were not forced to think and reason godlessly.”, I cannot presume to think to speak for the millions of students in over one hundred thousand public schools. I can speak, however, of my children, and they received their religious eductiona at their local parish and their home.
As far as the Socialist-entitlement is concerned, I asked my kids about this at their schools, and they assured me they weren’t required to read Das Kapital, and Lenin’s birthday was not a holiday. You would have to be more specific about what Socialist-entitlement means for me to determine if our local public schools included this in their curriculum.
As to your point that it is UNKNOWN (your caps) if government schools are effective or not, this point is true for all types of education. It is equally UNKNOWN whether private schools/religious schools/home schooling are effective or not. Are we to simply trash all types of education because it is UNKNOWN if they are effective or not? Give me one type of schooling that will pass your effectivity test.
In terms of your comment “How do you **know** that it was the teachers who taught the math?”, again, if I use your own test, how do I **know** that they didn’t learn from the teacher? I will say, with 100% confidence, that they didn’t learn it from me. It strains credulity to expect that my kids could have learned it solely on their own or from other students without input from their teacher.
You said that I was putting up a strawman of 100% success, and that you did not state that 100% success was your goal. Fine. What is your success criterion? How do you define public schools as a failure, and private/religious/home schooling as a success? I will remind you that “public schooling” is not a monolithic entity across the country. There are nearly 100,000 public elementary schools across the country, and a concomitant amount of middle and high schools. The fact that some are failing doesn’t mean all are failing. I can only speak from my own experience, and that says my local schools are doing their intended job of educating our children, and preparing them for higher education and life. The fact that the Detroit schools aren’t isn’t a reason to close my schools.
Oh, by the way, you can’t denigrate my kid’s degrees as being only important to a secularist, and then brag about your kid’s degrees. They’re either unimportant or they’re not. Consistency!
So, it appears that you think public schools are failure and should be closed immediately. My question is, what do you replace them with? Most of the arguments you use against them apply equally to any institutional setting, be it run by the government, the church, or private institutions. Are we to immediately close ALL institutions of learning and replace them all with Home Schooling? If you think the public schools do a poor job teaching inner city youths, why do you think their parents are going to do better? How is a high school drop-out parent who may be a drug addict going to teach their own children at home?
Government schooling is a First Amendment and freedom of conscience abomination. Why?
Reason: No school can be religiously, politically, or culturally neutral. Such a state of philosophic neutrality is impossible in the mind of any sentient human. When government owns and runs schools, the most powerful political factions get to control the religious, cultural, and political worldview of other people's children.
Godless government schools are **not** religiously neutral in content or consequences. Any child in a godless classroom will learn to think and reason godlessly. They must just to cooperate while in the godless classroom. How could it be otherwise?
Solution: Begin the process of privatizing all education. Vouchers, tax credits, charters, on-line schooling, dame schools, and homeschools can help build the private infrastructure. The ideal and goal should be complete separation of school and state with charity educating the poorest among us.
Re: Learning to think godlessly in school and religiously at home
One ( among many) problems the children from a religious home faces when in the government's godless indoctrination camp is that he must learn to compartmentalize his faith into public and private spheres. While you may choose this for your children other parents want their faith fully integrated into the curriculum. They want the school to fully support the values and beliefs being taught at home. If specific religion are forbidden by the government to be discussed, the child risks learning that religion must be hidden away as if it were a bathroom activity.
Then there is the taxpayer. Many taxpayers seriously resent being under police threat to fund the establishment of a godless worldview in the next generation of voters.. It is godlessness that is being established in the government school.
Re: Government schools are socialist-entitlements
That is what they **are**. That is their foundation. It is the very essence of the institution. Children in these government institutional schools risk learning that the same voting mob that gives them tuition-free schooling is also powerful enough to give them **lots** of free stuff.
Nothing needs to be specifically taught. Simply by being in the socialist-entitlement government school they risk learning to be comfortable with socialism.
Re: The effectiveness of institutional schooling.
You are completely correct! It is UNKNOWN whether or not institutional schooling ( private or government) is effective. It has never been studied in a systematic manner.
In pure homeschooling, if it is successful, the only possible source of the success is the home. If it fails, and occasionally it does, the only possible source for that failure is the home.( This assumes that the child is reasonably intelligent and not mentally or physically handicapped in a way that would impede learning. )
Re: you think public schools are failure
They are a success if the parents want their child to learn to think and reason godlessly. ( They absolutely will at least in the classroom.), risk learning to be comfortable with socialism, have free babysitting, and are willing to accept that there have never been studies to prove their effectiveness in teaching.
Re: Closing government schools immediately
Another strawman.
What part of “”***Begin*** the process” is hard to understand? The word is **Begin**. I don't see the word “close immediately” in anything I have written in this thread.
Re: Inner city parents
The long, long waiting lists for vouchers and charters schools are proof that these inner city parents are motivated to find the best environment for their children. The lotteries held each year are especially heartbreaking.
Obviously, some children must be institutionalized for their schooling. It is not the best or healthiest way to rear a child to responsible adulthood, but necessary. We need orphanages, too, but no one is claiming it is the best way to rear a child.
Funding should follow the child. This will **begin** the process of privatizing K-12 schooling in this nation. Perhaps institutional schooling may not actually teach the child anything. We don't know since it has never been studied, but private schools do have the freedom to dish out some very politically incorrect parenting advice that would help create a home environment in which learning can take place. Some private schools ( paternalistic schools) are attempting to create in the institutional school the environment normally found in a healthy home.The children attend school up to 12 hours a day, all year, and Saturdays, as well. These schools are like educational orphanages. Sad, but needed.
Re: Success
Educational success of other people's children as it applies to me ( a libertarian).???....Hm??? ....
Answer: Not to be a burden on other taxpayers. That is what I would like see. In fact, beyond these minimal requirements, who would even begin to even think about **imposing** their anointed view of success on another person? How presumptuous of them!
Success is for each set of parents to decide, and later for the child to decide when he is an adult. Who am I, you, anyone else, or the state to say what is success?
My children's and your children's accomplishments would be an anathema to the Amish, yet, there kids ( as adults) are doing a very good job of staying off welfare and are staying out of prison.
Re: 100,000 public elementary schools across the country,
All of them are godless. All of them impose godlessness on the children who are under state pressure and police threat to attend. All of them are a First Amendment and freedom of conscience abomination to the children forced to attend and to the taxpayer who is forced to pay for the government imposed and non-neutral religious, cultural, and political worldview.
Solution: **Begin** the process of privatizing all schooling in the nation.
Re: Effectiveness
Is the material presented in the classroom learned in the government's institutional classroom? Is it the government's institutional teacher who teaches it to the child? Without studies it is impossible to know!
If the information is acquired in the classroom due to the teacher, then the institutional school is effective. If not and it is acquired elsewhere or not at all, then the institutional school isn't effective for that individual child.
Without studying the information known by the child before the class, immediately after the class, and after study done in the home, it is impossible to know if the government's institutional school passes that information on to the child or if the child learned it **in the home** from parents, paid and unpaid tutors, or the child's own efforts in studying in the home.
Re: Bragging
You were stating a fact about your children's education. That is not bragging. That is merely stating a fact. The same is true for me and my kids.
Re: Secularism and degrees
No, degrees are not most important to our family. Our relationship to God is. If the education that a degree represents ( not the degree, itself) are obtained it is because the children ( not me) felt spiritually impressed to strive for them. In time the importance of this education to the children and those they serve will be revealed.
Re: Straining credulity
Homeschoolers who are high school dropouts are doing an amazing job with their kids, so **they** are managing to teach their kids subjects that you feel “strain credulity”. A visit to a local homeschool meeting would introduce you to the methods commonly used by homeschoolers.
Personally, my advanced undergraduate education was in the math-based sciences. For me to excel in these subjects most of the work was done ***before** class by reading the chapters and working the problems. The class itself was merely to tie up some loose ends. Fundamentally, the university was supplying the curriculum, a testing service, some minor tutoring, and a credential.
Re: What would replace government institutional schooling?
**Begin** the process of privatizing the delivery of K-12 schooling. It has already begun. It is successful enough that states across the nation are expanding their charters, vouchers, and tax credits. Homeschooling continues its remarkable growth and is now 4% of the school-aged population.
I suggest that we continue with what seems to be the gradual privatizing of K-12 schooling. Once vouchers, charters, and tax credits are introduced the waiting lists grow phenomenally. Obviously, there is a demand for more. Legislators will respond especially since the private alternatives to government schooling are far less of a strain on state budgets. The ideal would be complete separation of school and state. That would be an admirable goal but not likely to be completely achievable.
Well, it appears we are at an impasse. If I’m not misreading it, your belief is that the most important element of schooling is the religious portion and if a school does not include a large dose of religion it is a failure and leads to godlessness. I will point out that we have had public schools in this country since before we were a country, and the 1800s and early 1900s did not appear to be a particularly godless time. I will also point out that yours is a position that is fully supported by Grand Ayatollah Sistani.
I on the other hand believe that public schools serve a vital interest in this country and I am 100% in favor of continuing it. I also have no problem in individuals/families that choose not to participate in public schooling and home school or religious/private school their children. Why are you so intolerant that you insist on destroying something that many people think clearly works and want continued?
While you point out, correctly, that “Many taxpayers seriously resent being under police threat to fund the establishment of a godless worldview in the next generation of voters.”, there’s lots of things that the government funds via my taxes that I seriously resent as well, such as subsidies to large corporations. Public schools (in my belief, and many others) serve a societal good and should be supported. Many people are not willing or able to home school their children. The mere fact that some high school dropouts have been able to successfully home-school does not alter the fact that this is a poor starting point (how can you teach what you do not know yourself?) We can’t set policy for the 98% based on the successes of the 2%
So, your comment that Government schools are socialist-entitlements because they’re socialist entitlements is a perfect example of a tautology. Supporting your position by repeating your position is no way to win a logical argument.
So, as I said, we are at an impasse, and there is no way that either of us will convince the other of our position (mine is right, or course. – You may choose to disagree).
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