I guess this is the man who shot Reagan and Jim Brady, huh?
Posted on 07/14/2018 7:02:21 AM PDT by jcpryor
Mark Show joined The Chris Pryor Show to discuss Dorothy Kilgallen's untimely death and its relation to the JFK and Lee Harvey Oswald assassinations.
Nothing behind the fence on the grassy knoll. It is on film.
Nothing to it. Oswald got the job before the Kennedy’s team had the route in place.
They had a gunner who was 63 perform the shots in time. And, an Australian team copied the second shot as it happened. It was on television. And with Elm street going downhill, but only slightly, made the shot to be flatter and easier. S curve at that slow speed that they were doing does not matter.
this point was made to show Oswald working there was his a coincidence. My question was how long? Also the point assumes the plan to kill Kennedy was his alone.
In the other posters point, someone got him the job then it may be possible it was known before a month that Kennedy would go here. An asset put in place early to not bring suspicion to the conspirators.
Is it coincidence the pared route came right by the window where a guy had decided to kill the president and had job in a tall building?
post 98
And?
someone posted the CIA got him the job. AND THAT It wasn’t me. Are you reading the thread or just trying to see if I am an expert? Well you can forget about that./ I ask questions when i don’t know something.
The most thorough and compelling book on the Kennedy assassination.
Who ever said that the SS agent with the rifle was in the same car as Kennedy? Why do you keep modifying your assertions and trying to construct bizarre strawman arguments if you are so sure of your point of view?
After the first shot was fired from the book depository Agent Hickey immediately stood up and raised his rifle looking for a shooter.
At the same instant the driver of Kennedy's car put on the brakes and the driver of the car behind carrying the secret service agents had to slam on his brakes to avoid a collision which caused Hickey to lose his balance. The barrel of his rifle came down and Hickey accidentally discharged his weapon.
Hickey was standing when the shot was fired, the cars were basically bumper to bumper. The trajectory of the projectile matches the Zapruder film footage perfectly along with the forensic and ballistic evidence.
Afterward there were outrageous actions made by the Secret Service and intelligence agencies to cover up the mechanics of what happened. Almost Kennedy's entire Secret Service detail had been out drinking and carousing until the early hours of the morning of the big day. Some were still so screwed up that they couldn't perform their normal duties. Agent Hickey was not the one who typically carried a rifle. We can thank the efforts made to protect the reputations of this bunch of negligent idiots for generations of outlandish conspiracy theories.
My suggestion to you would be to find a paper or electronic copy Mortal Error by Bonar Menninger. All of your objections are answered in incredibly fine detail. It is the only thing that I have read that actually pulls it all together. But you have no intention of ever doing that do you?
My wife's father who joined the military in 1938 and was a decorated combat veteran in WWII and Korea and served during the Vietnam era as well, always said that simple stupidity rules the world. The older I get the more I realize how true the statement actually is.
Kennedy aide Dave Powers said, “Someone a foot away from me or two feet away from me couldn’t fire a gun without me hearing it”
Was Dorothy Kilgallen Murdered Before Revealing Who Killed JFK?
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/chat/3549245/posts
Manhattan DA’s Office Probing Death of Reporter With Possible JFK Ties (Dorothy Kilgallen)
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/3519353/posts
Journalist’s tell-all on mobster tied to JFK might have gotten her killed
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/chat/3501331/posts
That's why lawyers, like the late Johnny Cochran get the big bucks to overturn cases. They know where to find the weak links.
Your naivety about lawyers is kind of cute, but the way that Johnny Cochran and most other lawyers operate is to throw up so much extraneous and misleading information that the jurors become confused. I have seen this first hand on numerous occasions.
I would like to correct a couple of your obvious misstatements. There were no Carcano bullet fragments recovered from inside of Kennedy's skull and his brain “disappeared” and has never been recovered. Which is consistent with a cover-up; access to Kennedy's remains were very carefully guarded...
Your comment on witness statements is not accurate and demonstrates only the laughable lack of depth in your “research”.
From https://medium.com/@mokan9997/hidden-in-plain-sight-4761be7b8115
Witness Statements
Saw a weapon in the hands of a Secret Service agent:
1. Dallas Mayor Earle Cabell: “From out of nowhere appeared one Secret Service man with a submachine gun.”
2. S.M. Holland: “…I noticed that this Secret Service man stood up in the car, in the President’s car. Just about the time the President was shot the second time. He jumped up in the seat and was standing up in the, on the seat. Now I actually thought when they started up, I actually thought he was shot too, because he fell backwards just like he was shot, but it jerked him down when they started off. He pointed this machine gun right toward that grassy knoll behind that picket fence.”
3. Sen. Ralph Yarborough: “After the shooting, one of the Secret Service men sitting down in the car in front of us pulled out an automatic rifle or weapon and looked backward.”
4. Hugh Betzner: “I also saw a man in either the President’s car or the car behind his and someone down in one of those cars pull out what looked like a rifle.”
5. George Davis: (from a March 3, 1964 FBI statement): “He stated his first impression was that someone had played a prank, but then he saw guns in the hands of the Secret Service Agents with President Kennedy, saw President Kennedy slumped forward…”
6. Jack Franzen: (from a Nov. 24, 1963 FBI statement): “He noticed the men, who were presumed to be Secret Service Agents, riding in the car directly behind the President’s car, unloading from the car, some with firearms in their hands…”
7. Joan Franzen: (from a Nov. 25, 1963 FBI statement): “She advised her small son called her attention to the fact that some of the men in the automobile behind the President’s car were holding guns in their hands shortly after the shots which apparently struck President Kennedy and stated she assumed these men were Secret Service Agents.”
8. Officer Earle Brown: “And then we saw the car coming with the President, and as it passed underneath me I looked right down and I could see this officer in the back; he had this gun and he was swinging it around, looked like a machine gun, and the President was all sprawled out, his foot on the back cushion.”
9. Toni Foster: “I can’t recall the car behind them, which I’m sure was the one all the agents were in. And that fast you see gentlemen out there — all of a sudden they all had guns, rifles, light machine guns, if that is what it was.”
10. Secret Service Agent Rufus Youngblood: “Hickey [was] in the Presidential follow-up car poised on the car with the AR15 rifle looking up toward the buildings.”
11. Secret Service Agent Winston Lawson: “As the Lead Car was passing under this bridge I hear the first loud, sharp report and in more rapid succession two more sounds like gunfire. I could see persons to the left of the motorcade vehicles running away. I noticed Agent Hickey standing in the follow-up car with the automatic weapon and first thought he had fired at someone.”
12. Secret Service Agent Glen Bennett: “A second shot followed immediately and hit the right rear high of the President’s head. I immediately hollered `he’s hit’ and reached for the AR-15 located on the floor of the rear seat. Special Agent Hickey had already picked up the AR15.”
13. Secret Service Agent Emory Roberts: “I turned around a couple of times, just after the shooting and saw that some of the Special Agents had their guns drawn. I know I drew mine, and saw SA Hickey in the rear seat with the AR-15, and asked him to be careful with it.”
14. Secret Service Agent William McIntyre: “Most, if not all the agents in the follow-up car had drawn their weapons and agent Hickey was handling the AR-15.”
15. Secret Service Agent Jerry Kivett: “Once we left the area, I could see all three cars… The follow-up car, with some agent holding the AR-15 in the air.”
Believed shots may have come from the motorcade:
1. Dallas Motorcycle Police Officer Bobby Hargis (riding on the left rear side of the presidential limousine): Q: “Do you recall your impression at the time regarding the source of the shots?” A: “Well, at the time it sounded like the shots were right next to me.”
2. Austin Miller (standing on the triple overpass): Q: “Where did the shots sound like they came from?” A: “Well, the way it sounded like, it came from the, I would say from right there in the car.” 3. Royce Skelton (standing on the triple overpass): Q: “Where did it seem to you that the sound came from, what direction?” A: “Toward the President’s car.” Q: “From the President’s car?” A: “Right around the motorcycles and all that — I couldn’t distinguish because it was too far away.”
Smelled gunpowder at street level: 1. Dallas Motorcycle Police Officer B.J. Martin (riding on the left rear side of the presidential limousine) as quoted in “Murder from Within,” by Fred T. Newcomb and Perry Adams: “You could smell the gunpowder… you knew he wasn’t far away. When you’re that close, you can smell the powder burning. Why you — you’ve got to be pretty close to them… you could smell the gunpowder… right there in the street.”
2. Virgie Rachley, aka Mrs. Donald Baker, (standing on the sidewalk in front of the book depository), from a Nov. 23, 1963 FBI statement: “She recalled that after the second shot she smelled gunsmoke but did not know where it was coming from.”
3. Tom Dillard (riding in a convertible, Camera Car #3, located seven cars behind the Secret Service follow-up vehicle): A. “I might add that I very definitely smelled gunpowder when the car moved up to the corner.”
Q. “You did?”
A. “I very definitely smelled it.”
Q. “By that you mean when you moved up to the corner of Elm and Houston?”
A. “Yes; now, there developed a very brisk north wind.”
Q. “That was in front of the Texas School Book Depository?”
A. “Yes, it was very close — the corner is rather close. I mentioned it, I believe, that it was rather surprising to me.”
Q. “Who did you mention it to?”
A. “Bob, I’m sure.”
Q. “Bob Jackson?”
A. “Yeah, Bob and I were talking about it.”
4. Robert (Bob) Jackson (riding in a convertible, Camera Car #3, located seven cars behind the Secret Service follow-up vehicle): See Dillard statement above.
5. Sen. Ralph Yarborough (riding in the Vice President’s car, directly behind the Secret Service follow-up vehicle), as quoted in the Chicago Sun-Times, Saturday, Nov. 23, 1963: “You could smell powder on our car nearly all the way to here (to the hospital.)” In 1989, Yarborough told author Jim Marrs: “A second or two later, I smelled gunpowder. I always thought that was strange because, being familiar with firearms, I never could see how I could smell the powder from a rifle high in that building.”
6. Elizabeth Cabell (riding in a convertible, two cars behind the Secret Service follow-up vehicle): “I was acutely aware of the odor of gunpowder. I was aware that the motorcade stopped dead still. There was no question about that.
Q. “Did you make the observation to anyone at the time that you smelled gunpowder?”
A. “No, because there was too much confusion. But I mentioned it to Congressman Roberts when we were in Washington a couple of weeks ago.”
Q. “Did he say that he had observed that?”
A. “As well as I remember, he said `Yes.’”
7. Congressman Ray Roberts (riding in a convertible, two cars behind the Secret Service follow-up vehicle): See Cabell statement above.
8. Patrolman Earle Brown (standing on the railroad bridge that crossed Stemmons Freeway upwind from Dealey Plaza. The motorcade passed beneath him on the way to Parkland Hospital):
“…I heard these shots and then I smelled this gun powder.” Q. “You did?”
A. “It come on it would be maybe a couple minutes later so — at least it smelled like it to me.”
9. Patrolman Joseph Smith (moving on Elm Street toward the grassy knoll) Smith reported “a distinctive smell of gunsmoke cordite.”
10. Unknown sources, as reported in the Chicago Tribune by writer Wayne Thomis on Nov. 23, 1963. “Seconds later the cavalcade was gone. The area still reeked with the smell of gunpowder.”
Believed the Secret Service may have returned fire:
1. Jean Hill, to the Dallas Times Herald on the afternoon of the assassination: “I thought I saw someone in the motorcade in street dress shoot back at a person running up the hill.” To the Dallas County Sherriff’s Department, also on Nov. 22nd: “There was an instant pause between the first two shots and the motor cade seemingly halted for an instant and three or four more shots rang out and the motorcade sped away. I thought I saw some men in plain clothes shooting back but everything was such a blur and Mary was pulling on my leg saying `Get down thery [sic] shooting.’”
2. Sen. Ralph Yarborough: The senator told reporters at Parkland Hospital that the third shot he heard “may have been a Secret Service man returning the fire.”
3. Secret Service Agent Winston Lawson: “I noticed the president’s car back there, but I also noticed right after the reports an agent standing up with an automatic weapon in his hand, and the first thing that flashed through my mind, this was the only weapon I had seen, was that he had fired because this was the only weapon I had seen up to that time.”
I would add that anyone who has been in the “heat of battle” with loud noises and a lot of confusing activity taking place in a very short amount of time and then been debriefed... can tell you that almost no one can give a completely accurate statement afterwards.
My experiences have obviously been nothing like being present when a President was assassinated, but I have been in plenty of situations where there were fatalities, sometimes multiple fatalities, and it has always been surprising to me the various and sometimes conflicting stories that people tell afterwards. About the only time there is agreement is when the witnesses get together afterwards and come to some sort of consensus.
So, you’ve read “Reclaiming History,” have you? Which parts do you find superceded by new information, the evidence - or Bugliosi’s interpretation thereof?
“Thousands of documents”... yes. Evidence of anyone other than Lee Harvey Oswald killing JFK... zero.
“Top researchers...” “all indications...” “the Agency orchestrated...” “or at the very least grossly negligent”...
Well, which is it? Did the Agency “orchestrate” the assassination? If so, who? Who at the “Agency”? CIA Director Allen Dulles? Someone under Dulles? Perhaps in the Directorate of Plans? Who?
Or was the Agency “grossly negligent”? Who are the “rogue agents” who schemed the plan? What are their names? What is the evidence of their involvement?
There were more than 4 attempts to assassinate JFK. You know about the attempt on his life in Chicago, don’t you?
When was the motorcade route, which passed by the Texas School Book Depository building, made public?
How long had Oswald been working at the TSBD when the assassination occurred?
How did the plotters know that Oswald would be working at the Dealey Plaza TSBD warehouse, and not at their other facility miles away?
Did Oswald shoot General Edwin Walker, or was he a patsy in that attempted assassination also?
And what's changed since then?
"Thousands of documents from the jfk files have been released since that publication."
Almost none of which were directly related to the assassination, and none of which point to anyone else being responsible.
"I occasionally peek in on the findings of some of the top researchers. All indications are that that the Agency orchestrated the assassination or at the very very least they were grossly negligent by allowing rogue agents to scheme a plan."
Top researchers eh? Why do they only have "indications"? What's the actual evidence?
"And Dallas was the fourth attempt. Quite similar plots to shoot the jfk motorcade were aborted- Miami Tampa & one other."
Unrelated plots. There are multiple plots against every president, most of which you never hear of. Just read Hunting the President
Dorothy Kilgallen accuses Bush of killing JFK
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RRCS4pi63J4
Dorothy Kilgallen, JFK, Ron Paul
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vqh79ha7Alc
You are a great guy and I have had fun debating this with you. Despite our back and forth this actually isn’t a controversy that is all that dear to my heart. And this is not truly a classic Kennedy “conspiracy theory”. For 25 years I was a member of an agency in which most had a similar philosophy to the “blue brotherhood” when it came to protecting “their own”. I also understand a little about the confusion that takes place at an active event.
Unlike theories about the motivation and associations of Oswald this one does nothing but tie together loose ends and helps only to understand the mechanics of what likely happened. It especially helps to explain the inconsistencies between how a full metal jacketed projectile behaves and the way the projectile that disintegrated when it hit Kennedy’s scull behaved. It makes no attempt to answer why Kennedy was killed or who else might have been involved. If you feel satisfied with all of the inconsistencies in the Warren report and other official explanations then there really is no reason to delve deeply into this one.
As far as the witness statements... I cut and pasted from the link that I provided. I appreciate that you read them and considered their content. I apologize if not all the statements seemed as relevant or the people used terminology that seems quaint or ill informed in retrospect.
I do not know what your background and experience is with firearms. I have been a fairly serious vintage firearm “buff” for many years. I assemble nearly all of the cartridges that I use for the dozens of vintage rifles and handguns that we own and have spent a lot of time at our gun club’s outdoor and indoor ranges.
Anyone who has used firearms for many years and claims that they have not ever had an accidental discharge is probably lying. That is why we have so many rules strictly enforced at our ranges that often seem ridiculously strict to outsiders. When the range safety officer or anyone else declares a ceasefire, all weapons are set down, their magazines are removed and their chambers are left open so that anyone can see they are unloaded and no one is allowed to touch them.
This is because of the risk of an accidental discharge even from people who haven’t been drinking until 3 or 4 in the morning the night before, are not riding in moving vehicles with their fingers near the triggers of selective fire weapons, and are not under the extreme stress of being down range from a trained and capable sniper.
As far as the smell of gun powder goes... you do not smell gun powder down range in the target area even at a busy gun range unless the wind is carrying the smoke toward you. The wind in Dallas on that fateful day was not carrying the smoke from Oswald’s rifle toward the area where the motorcade was at the time Kennedy was shot. There were a number of people who reported smelling gunpowder on the scene at the time of the shooting.
I appreciate very much that you looked at the link that I provided and have remained very civil. Thank you for the consideration, discussion and the information that you have provided. I hope that we both have learned a little from our interaction. After all is said, along with the fun from lively debate, that is what it is all about here.
There have been the release of documents and info gathered under the FOIA that provide insight into CIA operations that were ongoing at the time. In terms of indications as to who was directly responsible, I have not found concrete answers.
Reason: They covered their tracks well enough and people involved either disappeared or were ‘disappeared.’
Much of the argument for LHO as ‘the lone wolf’ assassin is based upon all the lies and inconsistencies of LHO’ timeline prior to Dallas and the agencies false denial of intimate knowledge of him.
The fact has been proven repeatedly and unequivocally that the CIA has withheld material evidence regarding the JFK murder for decades, intentionally deceiving investigators. Can you admit that?
The deceit has primarily been around the agency’s relationship to the DRE in the time of LHO and its close monitoring of LHO leading up to the assassination. If Joannides work - setting up the DRE and his field agents or assets was ‘unrelated’ to jfkA, why all the lies for over half a century?
There are compelling and serious issues that must be addressed by our government before this case is ever put to rest.
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