Posted on 07/12/2004 3:30:06 PM PDT by AngieGal
And by the way, thats "charlatan". :-}
See the article by Stanly Kurtz in the Weekly Standard
http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/003/660zypwj.asp
The End of Marriage in Scandinavia
The "conservative case" for same-sex marriage collapses.
by Stanley Kurtz
02/02/2004, Volume 009, Issue 20
**And below is the actual hard data for Europe and the US on percentage of out-of-wedlock births.**
I appreciate your research on this point. I have read the article you posted and looked at your statistics. I'll look into it further (including read your article jwalsh07 - thanks).
However, rising rates of out-of-wedlock births in Scandanavian countries aside. I think Dobson has some very compelling reasons to believe that same-sex unions are dangerous. Even if Dobson made an error in this (and I'm not sure if he has). You must agree that putting a hole in one part of one point of an eleven point argument is not sufficient to crumble it.
I have seen many people on this forum make similar statements, but I haven't seen any of them back it up. Go on, be the first. Explain why marriage is dying in Scandinavia and the Netherlands. For a bonus, explain why the assaults against free speech and worship that occurred in Sweden and Canada post-gayification won't happen here.
Before supporting (or even failing to oppose) gay marriage, you might want to check these out:
Results of gay marriage in Scandinavia.
Results of gay marriage in Holland
Where it will lead sociologically.
Let's be nice, live-and-let-live libertarian types, just like in Canada.
(In Sweden and Canada gay activists got parts of the Bible made "illegal." Do we want to encourage them in the USA?)
That is a scripural reference I've been looking for, but having difficulty finding it.
Results of gay marriage in Scandinavia.
Results of gay marriage in Holland
A Swede was just sent up for 30 days. According to the article I read, all he did was compile a list of Biblical references and mention that God obviously believes the behavior is sinful, so we should too. For this, he gets a month in jail for "inciting hatred."
I couldn't agree with you more - as far as I'm concerned, that's where it's going, I try to tell people this, but they just don't see it. Lord help us when they are required to teach homosexual acts in sex-ed....and beleive me, it will be required before long the way we are headed.
[T]the state of the American family is deplorable and critical; if trends are not reversed, society will fall apart within very few generations. The largest problem is that many people have lost sight of the fact that marriage exists to join two families and start a third, and to ensure that--to the extent possible--every child has a mother and a father. Although homosexuals are not the primary cause of this decay, allowing homosexual marriage would make a bad situation worse.
You're kidding me right. No probably not but still...
(Please show some clear scriptures for this that do not twist old english into today's meanings for vastly different wordings.)
It is not discussed, nor forbidden in the Bible. On top of that Song of Solomon alludes to the tasting of each other's body (2:3, 4:16, 8:2). Song of Solomon is considered almost pornographic and not for children to read in many circles. (I think it is wrong to use the term porn in reference to any Biblical portion but I understand their point, it is very explicit -- do a study with some of the original language at some point, you'll see that most translators water it down.)
I couldn't agree with you more - as far as I'm concerned, that's where it's going, I try to tell people this,
My husband asked me once when discussing public schools -"If a homosexual was out to molest a child, where would he go?"
I said "Where the children are. "
Bingo!
But I homeschool, so if he goes where my children are, he is likely to get a hot lead enema.
They adored each other. It's so romantic. That's what a man and woman should do - become one.
Probably not. Those who want a traditional marriage can still have one. Most people will opt for tradition, even though something like 50% of straight marriages will end in divorce, but I guess that's just part of the tradition.
2. Children will suffer most.
Suffer what and compared to what? This statement reads like a deceptive ad. Sort of like "More Doctors prefer XYC Aspirn" More doctors than what? Truck drivers? And they prefer aspirn over what? Root canal? Rainy weather? Dobson's statement is clever, because it can't be rebutted as written.
3. Public schools in every state will embrace homosexuality.
They already have.
4. Adoption laws will be instantly obsolete.
Small parts of the adoption laws may have to be modified or interpreted in a gender neutral fashion, but I don't see how the laws will be obsolete.
5. Foster-care programs will be impacted dramatically.
I don't get this one either.
6. The health care system will stagger and perhaps collapse.
That is certainly a real possibility. Or it could adapt. Regardless, there are a lot of other things that could kill the health care system, like illegal immigrants, fat people, and straight, married couples who stay together until "death do us part."
7. Social Security will be severely stressed.
That's a negative? I would like to see social security stressed so severely that it disappears completely.
8. Religious freedom will almost certainly be jeopardized.
I don't get this one either. Churches will continue to set their own rules, and people will continue to worship in the churches of their choice.
9. Other nations are watching our march toward homosexual marriage and will follow our lead.
Perhaps, but who cares what other countries think or do. France and Germany will probably do just the opposite of us.
10. The gospel of Jesus Christ will be severely curtailed.
Not for those who believe in the Holy Gospel and live their lives in accordance with the Scriptures. I do hope, however, that they also remember the part about loving their neighbor as they love themselves and not casting stones, and that they live by the Commandments that actually made the top ten.
11. The culture war will be over, and the world may soon become “as it was in the days of Noah” (Matthew 24:37).
So what. Jesus told us that the Day of Judgment will come and therefore, it must and there is nothing to stop it. Why? Because its part of God's plan.
Please note that I'm not pro-gay marriage. I am, however, against pitifully weak arguments that have no basis in fact.
Well, I don't think that most of it is terribly-eloquently written; I don't know how to best shorten it, though, without losing essential meaning. The last sentence is the key, though it doesn't make clear why it would make a bad situation worse.
IMHO, one of the key lies that advocates of homosexual marriage have used is that opposition to it is a result of a hateful belief that homosexuals are to blame for everything that's wrong with the world. Since homosexuals are not at fault for everything that's wrong with the world, that belief is clearly false and thus the opposition to homosexual marriage is predicated on a false premise.
The key, therefore, to winning over people to oppose homosexual marriage is to make clear that while homosexuals are not to blame for all the world's problems (or even for most of them), that does not mean that homosexual marriage would not be harmful to an already-badly-decayed American Family. Were the state of the American Family healthier, it would perhaps be able to withstand such harm without major effect. But in its current state, any additional harm could prove catastrophic.
BTW, I think another major point which needs to be made is that a legitimately-born person has one man to call "father" [living or deceased], and one woman to call "mother"; ideally, the person should be raised by these two people. Although sometimes Fate will intervene and preclude this ideal, and thus it may be necessary sometimes to make the most of a bad situation, that does not mean bad situations should be sought out.
If a child's parents were killed in a car wreck, and the only living relative was an uncle who happened to be gay, I would not necessarily be opposed to the uncle's raising the child. Not an ideal situation, to be sure, but being raised by kin is IMHO generally better than being raised by by strangers.
To my mind, though, there is a huge difference between saying that openly-homosexual people should be allowed to raise their kin in situations as described above, and saying that homosexuals should be given children to raise without regard to their sexual orientation and/or habits.
Most of the world, including most of Europe, has no equivalent of First Amendment rights.
This is a grave concern.
Only 2 things protect us from tyranny: the First & Second Amendments.
This is not a disagreement, just chiming in. I would consider the 5th Amendment to be at least as vital, especially given some of the activity I've seen going on in nations where Christians are under persecution. Lack of a right to avoid self-crimination doesn't just lead to being on the stand and having to tell somebody what you did, for some reason it seems to open the door wide to forced "confessions."
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