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Anthropologist resigns in 'dating disaster'
Worlnetdaily ^ | February 19, 2005 | unattributed

Posted on 02/19/2005 7:36:30 AM PST by Woodworker

Panel says professor of human origins made up data, plagiarized works

A flamboyant anthropology professor, whose work had been cited as evidence Neanderthal man once lived in Northern Europe, has resigned after a German university panel ruled he fabricated data and plagiarized the works of his colleagues. Reiner Protsch von Zieten, a Frankfurt university panel ruled, lied about the age of human skulls, dating them tens of thousands of years old, even though they were much younger, reports Deutsche Welle. "The commission finds that Prof. Protsch has forged and manipulated scientific facts over the past 30 years," the university said of the widely recognized expert in carbon data in a prepared statement.

Protsch's work first came under suspicion last year during a routine investigation of German prehistoric remains by two other anthropologists. "We had decided to subject many of these finds to modern techniques to check their authenticity so we sent them to Oxford [University] for testing," one of the researchers told The Sunday Telegraph. "It was a routine examination and in no way an attempt to discredit Prof. von Zieten." In their report, they called Protsch's 30 years of work a "dating disaster."

Among their findings was an age of only 3,300 years for the female "Bischof-Speyer" skeleton, found with unusually good teeth in Northern Germany, that Protsch dated to 21,300 years. Another dating error was identified for a skull found near Paderborn, Germany, that Protsch dated at 27,400 years old. It was believed to be the oldest human remain found in the region until the Oxford investigations indicated it belonged to an elderly man who died in 1750. The Herne anthropological museum, which owned the Paderborn skull, did its own tests following the unsettling results. "We had the skull cut open and it still smelt," said the museum's director. "We are naturally very disappointed."

Protsch, known for his love of Cuban cigars and Porsches, did not comment on the commission's findings, but in January he told the Frankfurter Neue Presse, "This was a court of inquisition. They don't have a single piece of hard evidence against me." The fallout from Protsch's false dating of northern European bone finds is only beginning.

Chris Stringer, a Stone Age specialist and head of human origins at London's Natural History Museum, said: "What was considered a major piece of evidence showing that the Neanderthals once lived in northern Europe has fallen by the wayside. We are having to rewrite prehistory." "Anthropology now has to revise its picture of modern man between 40,000 and 10,000 B.C.," added Thomas Terberger, an archaeologist at the University of Greifswald. Frankfurt University's president, Rudolf Steinberg, apologized for the university's failure to curb Protsch's misconduct for decades. "A lot of people looked the other way," he said.


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; Culture/Society; Germany; News/Current Events; Technical
KEYWORDS: academia; anthropology; archaeology; c14; chrisstringer; crevolist; evolution; fraud; germany; ggg; godsgravesglyphs; history; neandertal; neandertals; neanderthal; neanderthals; protschvonzieten; radiocarbondating; rcdating; reinerprotsch; resignation; rudolfsteinberg; science; speyer; thomasterberger; vonzieten
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To: Pharmboy
We've ALL had dating disasters...you just move on and hope you'll get lucky the next Friday night. Sheesh.

Agreed. That is not a good enough reason to quit one's job.

501 posted on 02/22/2005 8:58:39 AM PST by The_Media_never_lie
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To: Dataman
As I thought. You said "Feel free to produce even one example.". I provide "one" example, and not only am I not right for not fulfilling retroactively changed requirements, but you're using semantic games to pretend that nmh (a known, documented liar) meant something other than what he said.

I expect no less dishonesty from you.
502 posted on 02/22/2005 9:02:50 AM PST by Dimensio (http://angryflower.com/bobsqu.gif <-- required reading before you use your next apostrophe!)
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To: Ichneumon

And since I already posted the athiest sites that defend Darwin, and since I already posted the MARX quote that praised Darwin fo his thesis...

You are still proven wrong.

You guys need to pick up a Bible, and read it.

And believe what you read.


503 posted on 02/22/2005 9:07:29 AM PST by RaceBannon ((Prov 28:1 KJV) The wicked flee when no man pursueth: but the righteous are bold as a lion.)
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Comment #504 Removed by Moderator

To: Michael_Michaelangelo
Actually I posted it because I thought it was funny how you guys 'band together' and I decided to post a funny image about it.


505 posted on 02/22/2005 9:23:00 AM PST by Dimensio (http://angryflower.com/bobsqu.gif <-- required reading before you use your next apostrophe!)
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To: Dimensio

Funny! :)


506 posted on 02/22/2005 9:30:08 AM PST by Michael_Michaelangelo (The best theory is not ipso facto a good theory. Lots of links on my homepage...)
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To: Michael_Michaelangelo; Long Cut; Ichneumon; Dimensio; shubi; PatrickHenry; Thatcherite; ...
"Have you noticed that the most vocal scientists here are atheists?"

And they run from this guy like the scared-assed apes from which they think they descended. Hahahahaha

507 posted on 02/22/2005 9:36:41 AM PST by Matchett-PI (Macroevolution is the last of the great Mystery Religions of the 19th century.)
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To: The_Media_never_lie
That is not a good enough reason to quit one's job.

Something tells me he didn't quit. He's a FRAUD and his textbooks are still in universities around the world, no doubt. The damage he has done to real scientists and the work they do is immeasurable.

But forget about that! The "science patrol" here wants to bash Creationists. What else is new?

508 posted on 02/22/2005 9:37:22 AM PST by Michael_Michaelangelo (The best theory is not ipso facto a good theory. Lots of links on my homepage...)
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To: Ichneumon
That is absolutely NO excuse. If he doesn't have the time to read and accept-or-refute the point-by-point rebuttals made to him, then he should refrain from delivering additional blasts of material until he *does* have the time to clean up after the first ones(s). That's what an intellectually honest person would do, anyway.

Please note the final paragraph of my prior post, the paragraph AFTER the one you quoted.

I already noted that it sure smelled bad that he had the time to continue posting, but apparently not to read what had been vouchsafed to him (a little Tolkienesque lingo...)

BTW, is there a troll or ZOT policy on crevo threads?

Could we make some of the most egregious offenders read and / or subscribe to the pledge on PatrickHenry's Freeper page?

Cheers!

509 posted on 02/22/2005 9:54:00 AM PST by grey_whiskers (The opinions are solely those of the author and are subject to change without notice.)
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To: RaceBannon
And since I already posted the athiest sites that defend Darwin, and since I already posted the MARX quote that praised Darwin fo his thesis...

You are still proven wrong.

Exactly which statement of Ich's is proven wrong by the existence of atheists and Marx supporting Darwin? Or is this yet another assertion that RaceB cannot support.

If atheists and Marx believe that the world is an oblate-spheroid are they wrong in that too? Are all beliefs of atheists and Marxists false? Just checking.

You guys need to pick up a Bible, and read it.

Yeah, done that

And believe what you read.

Ah, there's the rub. You can't force me to believe something. I cannot even force myself to believe things....

510 posted on 02/22/2005 9:55:31 AM PST by Thatcherite (Conservative and Biblical Literalist are not synonymous)
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To: Michael_Michaelangelo; Long Cut; Ichneumon; Dimensio; shubi; PatrickHenry; Thatcherite; ...
Let's do this again. (It appears that the link is broken in my previous post).

"Have you noticed that the most vocal scientists here are atheists?"

And they run from this guy like the scared-assed apes from which they think they descended. Hahahahaha

511 posted on 02/22/2005 9:56:32 AM PST by Matchett-PI (Macroevolution is the last of the great Mystery Religions of the 19th century.)
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To: bondserv
Let's just say they don't believe the things Jesus Christ said! Mar 10:6 But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female. This rules out the Theory of Evolution for those believing in Christ.

Not necessarily. Other possibilities exist:

a. Jesus was misheard.

b. Jesus was talking in a way that his contemporary audience would understand.

c. Jesus was heard correctly, but the eventual transcription to the Bible was in error.

d. Jesus was not omniscient (if you believe that Jesus was omniscient it would be interesting to know at what age he acquired this remarkable ability, or did he have it from the moment of conception?)

e. Jesus was talking figuratively (in fact this is definitely so, because God did make Male and Female from the "beginning of creation", he did it at least some days after the beginning).

f. Some other explanation that hasn't occurred to me yet.

512 posted on 02/22/2005 10:03:11 AM PST by Thatcherite (Conservative and Biblical Literalist are not synonymous)
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To: Thatcherite
e. Jesus was talking figuratively (in fact this is definitely so, because God did make Male and Female from the "beginning of creation", he did it at least some days after the beginning).

With all due respect, this quote of Jesus comes after a question about divorce. The "beginning" being referred to is the beginning of the institution of marriage, when man and women were created, not the beginning of life itself.
513 posted on 02/22/2005 10:41:41 AM PST by mike182d
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To: Dimensio; Dataman
Dataman seems to want me to find a posting where a creationist says exactly "All who accept evolution are atheists", and even the slightest deviation from that wording somehow proves me wrong. He's incapable of admitting an error, so he'll play semantic games for as long as possible and even if I could find a posting with the exact wording that he demands, he'd come up with some excuse to weasel out of an apology. Nonetheless, I've done some digging, and I've found other postings that may not use those exact words, but do imply a belief from the poster than those who accept evolution are atheists.


"Evolutionists resist Creation, since it would presuppose God..."



"And, speaking of materialists, that is the atheist connection, since a fundamental, though illogical, first principle of evolution is naturalism. Naturalism denies the existence of anything besides matter and its motion. Naturalism (also known as materialism) is necessarily atheistic and is the connecting point between evolution and unbelief. (Do note who made that statement)"


"I generally distrust the judgment of evolutionists because they're atheists."


This one is from nmh again, back in July
"Too bad the premise of an evolutionist is that God doesn't exist and if He does He is too stupid to create humans and all we see."


"Evolution theory exists because people don't want to believe they were made by a superior being to whom they are also responsible for their lives."


"According to the evolutionist there will be no final exam."


A classic Pascal's Wager argument...except that it was sparked by a discussion of evolution, not atheism:
"The clincher here is this, if I'm correct in my belief in the book of Genesis, I'll be spending eternity in a field of clover with a cold drink right there whenever I reach for it. Meanwhile, you and your buddies will be stoking a furnace while Asmodeus, Judas Iscariot and Adolf Hitler take turns jabbing you in the glutei with a trident should you stop shoveling for a moment to wipe your brow."


That's all I cared to dig up, and those were just unearthed by digging through MY user posts and looking at posts of mine where I had replied to people making the implication that evolution acceptance=atheism, so in addition to what I overlooked through just my sample size, I could only catch posts where I had responded, meaning that I wouldn't be including any that I have missed over the months nor would I have any that I saw and didn't offer up a response at the time. I even omitted a few that I didn't think were quite so obvious in their implications.. I admit that some of the above are ambigious, and could imply something other than "all who accept evolution are atheists", but there are a few up there that no honest person would argue imply anything but that.

Note also that, unlike some people, I'm actually providing direct links to each of my offerings so that the full context can be examined.

I'm sure that Dataman will find an excuse to dismiss each and everyone one of these statements, and any other that I provide.
514 posted on 02/22/2005 10:45:09 AM PST by Dimensio (http://angryflower.com/bobsqu.gif <-- required reading before you use your next apostrophe!)
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To: mike182d; bondserv
With all due respect, this quote of Jesus comes after a question about divorce. The "beginning" being referred to is the beginning of the institution of marriage, when man and women were created, not the beginning of life itself.

There's no need to offer me respect on matters on biblical interpretation. I'll cheerfully admit that my knowledge of it is approximately equivalent to RaceBannon's observed comprehension of science. Bondserv already knows this in fact.

But if we are talking literally, then I fail to see how "beginning of the creation" becomes "beginning of marriage", that's definitely a figurative statement then, not literal?

In any case my point was merely to offer a number of explanations that someone who could genuinely claim to be "Christian" might use to gainsay Bondserv's interpretation, not saying that any or all of them fit with any particular Christian's exact beliefs.

BTW Bondserv I am aware that I've left our interesting discussion on the morals of Genesis hanging; I will be getting back to you though because it is thought-provoking stuff.

515 posted on 02/22/2005 11:14:04 AM PST by Thatcherite (Conservative and Biblical Literalist are not synonymous)
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To: Thatcherite
oblate-spheroid

I thought it was an oblate ellipsoid.

Full Disclosure: Prolate ellipsoid = stretched. Think "football".

Oblate ellipsoid = "globe". Think "sitting on a Pilates ball."

516 posted on 02/22/2005 11:20:04 AM PST by grey_whiskers (The opinions are solely those of the author and are subject to change without notice.)
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To: Michael_Michaelangelo
Actually I posted it because I thought it was funny how you guys 'band together' and I decided to post a funny image about it.

...a "funny image" that was only "about it" because it had been DISHONESTLY PHOTOSHOPPED to appear to be about people who support evolution, when in fact the original image had nothing to do with it. And you got caught at it. Deal with it like man -- if you're able.

Why don't you lighten-up and get a life, dude.

I enjoy myself immensely on these threads, and I do have a life, "dude". You folks seem like the bitter ones, railing about the "scientific conspiracy" to "suppress the truth" about how the Earth is only a few thousand years old and all that.

I have never seen anybody spend so much time defending a particular world-view as you, Ichneumon.

All I defend is the truth, when it is falsely attacked. Almost every one of my posts concerning evolutionary biology was in response to someone else first posting an attack on it or misrepresentation of it. So if If you guys will stop "spending so much time" attacking science and telling lies about it, I could spend less time correcting you and more time doing other things. So how about it?

Maybe it's time for a break.

Go right ahead. That would be really refreshing.

You're not winning this battle. You realize that, right?

No, actually. Nor am I going to allow you folks to "win" by default. As long as you keep spewing misrepresentations, I'll be here to keep pointing out how dishonest and/or incompetnt you're being, and what a disservice you're doing to both the conservative movement, and to educational standards in this country.

Try a new hobby.

I have many hobbies. This is one of them. But again, if you folks would give up *your* hobby of spewing lies about science, we could *all* spend more time on other pursuits.

Get out of the house/apt and try something new.

I type at 120wpm. I can do this *and* still have enough free time to "get out of the house".

517 posted on 02/22/2005 11:22:10 AM PST by Ichneumon
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To: grey_whiskers
[oblate-spheroid]

I thought it was an oblate ellipsoid.

Alternate terminology for the same shape -- either is correct.

518 posted on 02/22/2005 11:27:06 AM PST by Ichneumon
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To: Dimensio
As I thought. You said "Feel free to produce even one example.". I provide "one" example, and not only am I not right for not fulfilling retroactively changed requirements,...[non sequitur]

No, you're still wrong. True, you provided one (questionable) example but you failed to back up your claim that creationists often claim all evolutionists are atheists. So no, finding one questionable post doesn't make you right. At this point you've claimed victory before crossing the finish line. I see in your next post you picked several examples that do not support your claim but you link them as if they do.

Why do you find it such a difficult task to be intellectually honest about these things?

519 posted on 02/22/2005 11:29:49 AM PST by Dataman
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To: Thatcherite
What is it that makes them behave this way? I hypothesise that they conflate their belief in biblical innerrancy with their own lives and behavior. If they are shown to be wrong about anything then that threatens their religion. So confronted with their error they go into denial. "I speak for Christ therefore what I say must be true."

Sorry I'm still catching up. I'll give you my Cliff's Note's version. There is a valid belief that people of faith have, that atheists would use science as an argument against their faith. As an example, look how easily Bible class was removed from public school.

Creationists have even gone so far as to give the atheists credit for inventing a religion of their own. Since atheists rarely acknowledge their belief, creationists have called it "evolution" and have endowed it with it's own characteristics drawn from several scientific disciplines. This effort has become a fairly lucrative business. Anti-evolution literature alone has supposedly topped $1 billion/year.

Evangelical Churches near me routinely invite speakers on "evolution" who repeat pretty much what you see posted here. One of my co-workers spent about 45 minutes at lunch one day explaining to me why the science teacher who spoke at his Church against "evolution" - with the degree in English Literature - should be credible. The ID'ers moved in later to try to give the movement more gravitas (heehee - I love that word since the 2000 election). I think this movement generated the notion that anti-evolution leaders should acquire science degrees to boost the validity of their claims.

Most of the creationist/ID crowd have NO science background - also thanks to the public school system - so they'll believe anything their heroes tell them. And there will always be heroes because there's money to be made in the field. So when you make science arguments to them, it falls on deaf ears. they don't know any science, or very little science, so they don't understand what you're saying. I don't believe that they're lying to you. They just don't know.

Plus I don't think they really want to make a scientific argument anyway. Sooner or later they'll resort to scripture or the argument from ignorance, "Evolution can't explain the eye so it's false". The best approach on these threads is to attempt to maintain your head and respond so that lurkers, who are genuinely interested, can get useful information. It worked for my co-worker.

520 posted on 02/22/2005 11:37:03 AM PST by <1/1,000,000th%
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