Henry V’s Payroll Cuts Agincourt Myth Down to Size (French/English ratio wildly exaggerated)

The Sunday Times ^ | May 29, 2005 | Richard Brooks

[quidnunc]

The scale of Henry V’s triumph at Agincourt, which has been feted as one of the greatest victories in British military history, has been exaggerated for almost six centuries, a new book is to reveal.

The English and Welsh were still outnumbered, according to Anne Curry, professor of medieval history at Southampton University — but only by a factor of three to two. For the last 50 years historians have believed the odds were at least four to one.

Curry is the first academic to untangle the true scale of Henry’s victory in 1415 by sifting through original enrolment records at the National Archives in London and the French Bibliothèque Nationale.

“The figures have been exaggerated over the centuries for patriotic reasons,” said Curry, whose book Agincourt: A New History will be published next month. “It was a myth constructed around Henry to build up his reputation as a king.”

Curry discovered there were more English and Welsh troops than previously thought, and far fewer on the French side. She was able to count the number of soldiers on both sides accurately because all were paid recruits. Their names and wages were recorded. She calculates that total numbers were about 8,000 on Henry’s side and 12,000 on the French.

-snip-

[tet68]

Does this mean the French won?

[martin_fierro]

[tet68]

I thought not.

[dufekin]

No, but they now lost less pitifully but just as badly.

[Cowboy Bob]

For the last 50 years historians have believed the odds were at least four to one.

What did historians believe were the the odds between 1451 and 1955?

[Cowboy Bob]

To be more accurate - between 1415 and 1955.

[ProudVet77]

“The figures have been exaggerated over the centuries for patriotic reasons,”
What agenda? I don't see an agenda?

[Arkie2]

The French still got their butts kicked, a common thread in their history.

[tet68]

Oh well, give them a few more years, and we'll find out
that the French were equal in numbers and died valiantly nearly winning, then a few more and they will have all called it a tie
and negotiated a peace.

[Vigilanteman]

One leftover legend from Agincourt is that the French threatened to cut off the middle finger of every English longbowman, the essential finger for guiding the arrow to its target. The famous English longbows were made from the Yew tree and without this finger, the English would no longer be able to pluck their bows.

After the battle was over, the English gave the French the finger and told them they could still pluck Yew. In the foggy air of Agincourt and to the French ear, unfortunately, the "pl" sounded like "F" and, thus, we are left with that crude expression and gesture even today.

[tet68]

For the last 50 years historians have believed the odds were at least four to one.
What did historians believe were the the odds between 1451 and 1955?

They could have saved a lot of time by calling Vegas and
getting the line.

[Citizen Tom Paine]

As I recall, this battle pitted French knights against stout Englishmen armed with longbows. The French knights continued to charge against them all day and were basically picked off by the archers. At nightfall the French quit. Here is my question: Were the French knights paid recruits? This doesn't fit in with what a knight was.

[quidnunc]

Cowboy Bob wrote: (For the last 50 years historians have believed the odds were at least four to one.) What did historians believe were the the odds between 1451 and 1955?

According to the article inmitially the ratio was reported as 30-1, scaled back to 10-1 in the 16th century.

[MinuteGal]

Once a knight is enough.

Leni

[longshadow]

does this mean Shakespeare must now be revised to read: "We few many, we happy band of brothers..."?

[bad company]

One leftover legend from Agincourt is that the French threatened to cut off the middle finger of every English longbowman, the essential finger for guiding the arrow to its target. The famous English longbows were made from the Yew tree and without this finger, the English would no longer be able to pluck their bows. After the battle was over, the English gave the French the finger and told them they could still pluck Yew. In the foggy air of Agincourt and to the French ear, unfortunately, the "pl" sounded like "F" and, thus, we are left with that crude expression and gesture even today.

You're so bad.

[Jagman]

Henry: "The fewer men, the greater share of honour. God's will! I pray thee, wish not one man more."

Westmoreland: "Anon, my lord, thou hasn't as few men as once thought. No longer canst thou proclaim we few--instead, thous't must proclaim we numerate but still not as many as the frogs."

Crowd: Anon, anon anon-on-anon!

[tet68]

As the knight said to another, when they stayed in the
castle of the gay king.

"Promise him anything, but give him our page."

[tet68]

Actually, the French knights were mostly killed by
English Men-at-arms, the press of French trying to
gain glory meant that the first ranks could neither
turn or retreat, blocked in by those who came after them.
The English, were able to take them in flank and in brutal
hand fighting slaughtered them.
To the point the FRench were having to attack over the bodies of their slain, which made for even worse footing.
Many were captured for ransom, but when word came that the
french were attacking the van, the pages and wagons left
out side the fight , word was given to kill them so as to
prevent them returning to the fight.

A bloody business.