Posted on 07/16/2005 12:22:35 AM PDT by nickcarraway
An encounter with a Bedouin robber in a desert valley has led to what one Israeli archaeologist described as one of the most important biblical finds from the region in half a century.
Professor Chanan Eshel, an archaeologist from Bar Ilan University in Tel Aviv, said yesterday that the discovery of two fragments of nearly 2,000-year-old parchment scroll from the Dead Sea area gave hope to biblical and archaeological scholars, frustrated by a dearth of material unearthed in the region in recent years, that the Judean desert could yet yield further artefacts.
"No more scrolls have been found in the Judean desert since 1965. This encourages scholars to believe that if they bother to excavate, survey and climb they will still find things in the Judean desert. The common knowledge has been that there is nothing left to find there," Prof Eshel said. The two small pieces of brown animal skin, inscribed in Hebrew with verses from the Book of Leviticus, are said by Prof Eshel to be from "refugee" caves in Nachal Arugot, a canyon near the Dead Sea, where Jews hid from the Romans in the second century.
The scrolls are being tested by Israel's Antiquities Authority.
Prof Eshel said he was first shown the fragments last year in an abandoned police station near the Dead Sea. A Bedouin had been offered $20,000 (£11,000) on the black market and wanted an evaluation.
Where is your rule? In the mind of sinning priests?
You just keep making up things that aren’t in the Bible.
Such as – “The Church to which the Lord Jesus was referring in Matthew 16 is not the same church to which Paul was writing in ANY of His epistles except HEBREWS
And this is found where in Scripture? It is your own rule, which requires you to ignore the plain language of the Bible.
You can’t use scripture to prove your points.
You can’t answer simple questions from scripture, such as:
1.Where does the Bible say that it contains all you need?
2. Where is your rule -- that the Church has Scripture as the final authority-- found in the Bible?
Then you hurl insults.
Real Christian behavior.
It is actually making things up in the Bible to teach that at every passage where the word "church" is found that it must be referring to one visible entity, and that, your church system.
“The only answer you can accept is one that elevates your church system above the written Word of God”
I am simply trying to find what scripture says on these matters. The plain language of scripture points to a visible church. You, my friend and brother in Christ, need to invent an elaborate scheme and ignore the plain language of scripture to say the visible church doesn’t exist.
“You have asked me where I find ALL I NEED”
No, I actually asked, ‘Where does the Bible say that it contains all you need?’ The Bible never talks about itself in this manner. It actually says just the opposite. The Bible itself calls the church “the pillar and foundation of the truth.” 1 Tim 3:14-15
“COMPLETE IN CHRIST. His written word affirms it.”
Were it only so simple.
Here are some of the other things that Scripture says are necessary for eternal life:
•Jesus declared: ‘Not everyone who says to me, "Lord, Lord" shall enter the kingdom of heaven’ (Matt. 7:21)." (Not everyone who believes will have eternal life)
•“Now a man came up to Jesus and asked, "Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?" … If you want to enter life, obey the commandments." "Which ones?" the man inquired. Jesus replied, " 'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, honor your father and mother,' and 'love your neighbor as yourself.' "All these I have kept," the young man said. "What do I still lack?" Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me." When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth.” Mat 19:16-22 (Keeping the commandments and forsaking those worldly possessions you love is a requirement for eternal life)
•“Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless? … See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.” James 2: 20,24 (Something useless - faith without works – will not get you eternal life)
•Jesus answered, "Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit. (Water baptism and receiving the Holy Spirit is required to get into heaven)
•"Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him" (John 6:53–56). (Unless you eat the flesh of Christ you have no eternal life)
•Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup. For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. (1 Cor. 11:27-29) (So, when you eat the bread, make sure you know it is the Lord’s body, because if you don’t you will suffer damnation)
Yes, we will be complete in Christ, if we follow all he says we need to do.
But you still haven’t answered the question, which is quite simple. The Bible never claims it contains all one needs for salvation. In many places it says just the opposite -
"Take note of those who create dissensions and difficulties, in opposition to the doctrine which you have been taught; avoid them" (Rom. 16:17) This refers to things that have been TAUGHT – not written down and later read on your own. Where did Jesus command anyone to write the Bible?
I love and read the Bible. But in very clear language the Bible itself never claims to be all I need for salvation. The belief that it is a tradition of man.
Not at all. You simply cannot take one verse you like from scripture and ignore all the others. _________ You may work, and work and work, but you will never attain the righteousness that God requires to reside with Him for eternity. Paul relinquished any hope in that (Philippians 3:8-10)”
But you cannot ignore the many references of works in scripture! Even though it doesn’t fit your personal theology, you cannot ignore the importance of works in scripture: "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them" (Eph. 2:10). “I (John) saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.” John 20: 12-13 “For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.” 2 Cor 5:10 “Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless? … See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.” James 2: 20,24 How do you view works, in the context of these verses? (More on this later in this post) _____________ “I am a member of a VISIBLE church. It is a local congregation of long historical standing in North Carolina. Hundreds, perhaps thousands have found the knowledge of Jesus Christ through ministries and efforts related to that church. But that church does NOT claim to be the conduit of salvation, but points men to the Person and finished work of Jesus Christ.”
Christ wanted us to be one. “I appeal to you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another so that there may be no divisions among you and that you may be perfectly united in mind and thought. My brothers, some from Chloe's household have informed me that there are quarrels among you. What I mean is this: One of you says, “I follow Paul”; another, “I follow Apollos”; another, “I follow Cephas”; still another, “I follow Christ.” Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized into the name of Paul?” 1 Cor 1:10-13 Let’s pause for moment and think about what this means. We are to be “perfectly united in mind and thought”. What does this mean to you? Let’s assume it means to believe exactly what Christ taught. Christ is “the Way.” Not one of many ways. If Christ came to bring us salvation, don’t you think He would have put in some mechanism in place to make sure we know “the Way?” This mechanism could not have been the Bible. We can’t even agree on what the meaning of the word “is” is, as in “This is my Body.” We cannot be one, “perfectly united in mind and thought” if everyone brings his own version of the Truth. Substitute Luther for Appollos, or Calvin for Paul, or King Henry for Cephas, and you see that the “new” religions and interpretations of scripture that sprang from the reformation are anti-scriptural, and by extension, against the command to be “perfectly united in mind and thought.” The mechanism had to be a single, visible Church with inerrant teaching authority, “the pillar and foundation of truth.” Or do you really believe Christ wanted 20,000+ versions of “the Way?” _____________ “Matt. 7:21. Men who call Jesus Lord, but then depend on religion, instead of HIM shall never go to heaven.”
Wrong again. These verses do not talk about depending on religion. (You keep making things up!) As in the case of the Old Testament prophets, there were both true and false ones, and for Matthew the difference could be recognized by the quality of their deeds, the fruits (Matthew 7:16). The mention of fruits leads to the comparison with trees, some producing good fruit, others bad. Matthew continues the attack on the false prophets but it is broadened to include those disciples who perform works of healing and exorcism in the name of Jesus (Lord) but live evil lives. Entrance into the kingdom is only for those who do the will of the Father. On the day of judgment (on that day) the morally corrupt prophets and miracle workers will be rejected by Jesus. "Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the road broad that leads to destruction, and those who enter through it are many. How narrow the gate and constricted the road that leads to life. And those who find it are few. "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but underneath are ravenous wolves. By their fruits you will know them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Just so, every good tree bears good fruit, and a rotten tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a rotten tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire. So by their fruits you will know them. "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?' Then I will declare to them solemnly, 'I never knew you. Depart from me, you evildoers.' _____________ You have much more in worldly possessions than the man in Matthew ch. 19. Do you have eternal life? Are you going to enter into the "kingdom of heaven?"
You are not paying attention. It is not the having possessions, it is the love of those possessions that prevented the rich man from entering paradise. ____________ James 2. You are interpreting. Your interpretation is in your parentheses. So, in doing so, weigh it against Ephesians ch. 2. Compare them for us please.
The following is a good comparison: “One passage Fundamentalists often cite as a prooftext against the Catholic view of salvation is Ephesians 2:8–9: "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast." Even if we assume that Paul is speaking of "good works" when he says we have not been saved by works, this in no way conflicts with Catholic theology. Notice that the passage speaks of salvation in the past tense—"you have been saved." In Greek this is the perfect tense, which denotes a past, completed action. We know from the Bible that salvation also has present and future aspects, so the kind of salvation Paul is discussing in Ephesians 2:8–9 is initial salvation. It is the kind which we received when we first came to God and were justified, not the kind of salvation we are now receiving (1 Pet. 1:8–9, Phil. 2:12) or the kind we one day will receive (Rom. 13:11, 1 Cor. 3:15, 5:5). But the Catholic Church does not teach that we receive initial justification by good works. You do not have to do good works in order to come to God and be justified. The Council of Trent states: "And we are said to be justified by grace because nothing that precedes justification, whether faith or works, merits the grace of justification. For ‘if it is by grace, it is no longer by works; otherwise,’ as the apostle says, ‘grace is no more grace’ [Rom. 11:6]" (Decree on Justification 8). So even if Paul were using "works" to mean "good works" in Ephesians 2:8–9, there is no conflict with Catholic theology. However, Paul probably does not mean "good works." Normally when he says "works," he means "works of the Law"—those done out of the Law of Moses. His point is to stress that we are saved by faith in Jesus Christ and not by obeying the Mosaic Law. Jews may not boast of having a privileged relationship with God because they keep the Mosaic Law and its requirement of circumcision (Rom. 2:6–11, 17–21, 25–29, 3:21–22, 27–30). Paul discusses how Jew and Gentiles are united together in the body of Christ and mentions works in connection with boasting, before turning to the whole subject of circumcision and membership in Christ: "Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called the uncircumcision by what is called the circumcision . . . remember that you were at that time separated from Christ. . . . But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near in the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down the dividing wall of hostility, by abolishing in his flesh the Law of commandments and ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two . . . and might reconcile us both to God in one body. . . . So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God" (Eph. 2:11–19). Paul is probably using "works" and "boasting" here as he does in Romans, of Jews boasting before Gentiles of having privilege with God due to their keeping the Mosaic Law. He says we are not saved in that manner, but by faith—meaning faith in Christ—so no one, either Jew or Gentile, can boast of having a more privileged position with God. We are all saved on the same basis—through faith in Christ and union in his body, the Church. The apostle then turns our attention away from works of the Mosaic Law and toward the kind of works a Christian should be interested in—good works: "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them" (Eph. 2:10). The sense of what Paul is saying is: "God has raised up both of us—Jews and Gentiles—to sit in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, for we received initial salvation as a gift. We obtained it by faith in Christ (which itself is a gift from God), not by works of obedience to the Mosaic Law—so neither Jew or Gentile can boast over the other of having privilege with God. Instead, we Christians are the result of God’s work, for he created us anew in the body of Christ so that we might do good works—the kind of works we should be concerned about—for God intended ahead of time for us to do them" (paraphrase of Eph. 2:6–10).” http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/1997/9706chap.asp _____________ John ch. 3. It is only your church's teaching that the water birth here is water baptism. The context speaks of the mother's womb as the water birth. "That which is born of the flesh is flesh."
Wrong again. See how Peter reacted – “Then Peter said, "Can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.” Acts 10:47 The early Christians uniformly identified this verse with baptism. Water baptism is the way, they said, that we are born again and receive new life—a fact that is supported elsewhere in Scripture “Or are you unaware that we who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were indeed buried with him through baptism into death, so that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might live in newness of life. Rom. 6:3–4; You were buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead. Col. 2:12–13; “not because of any righteous deeds we had done but because of his mercy, he saved us through the bath of rebirth and renewal by the holy Spirit, Titus 3:5). When was the last time you had a bath without water? “As they traveled along the road, they came to some water and the eunuch said, "Look, here is water. Why shouldn't I be baptized?" Acts 8:36 “And he gave orders to stop the chariot. Then both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water and Philip baptized him.” Acts 8:38 The water refers to the promise in Ezekiel 36:25–26: "I will sprinkle clean water upon you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. A new heart I will give you, and a new spirit I will put within you." Remember, Christ fulfilled the OT. _____________ John 6. And how do YOU (I mean YOU, YOURSELF) eat the flesh of Christ and drink His blood?
The same way that all of Christianity did for 1,500 years. The same way the Church has been doing for 2,000 years. In the same way Martin Luther did: "Who, but the devil, hath granted such a license of wresting the words of the holy Scripture? Who ever read in the Scriptures, that 'my body' is the same as 'the sign of my body?' or, that 'is' is the same as 'it signifies?' What language in the world ever spoke so? It is only then the devil, that imposeth upon us by these fanatical men .... Not one of the Fathers, though so numerous, ever spoke as the Sacramentarians: not one of them ever said, It is only bread and wine; or, the body and blood of Christ is not there present. Surely it is not credible, nor possible, since they often speak, and repeat their sentiments, that they should never (if they thought so) not so much as once, say, or let slip these words: It is bread only; or the body of Christ is not there, especially it being of great importance, that men not be deceived. Certainly in so many Fathers, and in so many writings, the negative might at least be found in one of them, had they thought the body and blood of Christ were not really present: but they are all of them unanimous." Martin Luther, tom. vii. Edit. Wittemb. p. 391 Congratulations! Your beliefs are the same as “the devil and fanatical men” according to Martin Luther. _____________ 1 Cor. 11. Nice Roman Catholic interpretation in your parenthases.
No interpretation necessary. It is the clear and plain language of the scripture – no interpretation at all. Read it again – “For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.” Read it again – “not discerning the Lord's body” You are the one with a personal interpretation different from the clear language of the Bible. No, the Bible can't be complete in its revelation for you. Your Final Authority is the Roman Church. No Authority except the church gives the church that authority. So, every time you read the word "church" in any Bible, your mind reads "Roman Catholic Church." Of course, that is not what the verses ever say.
I’ll ask again – Where does the Bible say it is the complete revelation? The issue is FINAL AUTHORITY. The one I submit to is the Scriptures (1 Timothy 2:15-17; 2 Timothy 3:15-17; 4:1-6; 1 Peter 1:23-25; John 6:63), and the one you submit to is the Roman Church.
1 Timothy 2:15-17 Funny, but in my Bible 1 Tim 2 ends at verse 15. What Bible are you using? 2 Timothy 3:15-17 As I pointed out earlier, the Scripture being referred to here is what Timothy learned “from infancy” was the old testament. The new Testament was not yet written. 2 Timothy 4:1-6 “I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and by his appearing and his kingly power: proclaim the word; be persistent whether it is convenient or inconvenient; convince, reprimand, encourage through all patience and teaching. For the time will come when people will not tolerate sound doctrine but, following their own desires and insatiable curiosity, will accumulate teachers and will stop listening to the truth and will be diverted to myths. But you, be self-possessed in all circumstances; put up with hardship; perform the work of an evangelist; fulfill your ministry. For I am already being poured out like a libation, and the time of my departure is at hand. No Scripture mentioned here, either. I suggest that this is exactly what you are doing – “following their own desires and insatiable curiosity, will accumulate teachers and will stop listening to the truth and will be diverted to myths” 1 Peter 1:23-25 “You have been born anew, not from perishable but from imperishable seed, through the living and abiding word of God, for: "All flesh is like grass, and all its glory like the flower of the field; the grass withers, and the flower wilts; but the word of the Lord remains forever." This is the word that has been proclaimed to you.” No Scripture mentioned here, either. I think you believe the phrase "word of God" in Scripture always refers to the Bible. Often it does, but often it doesn't. In many places it refers to Jesus, to oral prophecy, or to the oral preaching of the gospel. Here are a few representative examples: "For as the rain and the snow come down from heaven, and return not thither but water the earth, making it bring forth and sprout, giving seed to the sower and bread to the eater, so shall my word be that goes forth from my mouth; it shall not return to me empty, but it shall accomplish that which I purpose, and prosper in the thing for which I sent it" (Is. 55:10-11). Here the word goes “from my mouth” "[T]he word of God came to John the son of Zechariah in the wilderness; and he went into all the region about the Jordan, preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins" (Luke 3:2-3). Surely you do not believe that the Bible came to John?
"[Jesus] was preaching in the synagogues of Judea. While the people pressed upon him to hear the word of God, he was standing by the Lake of Gennesaret" (Luke 4:44; 5:1). Again, hearing the word, not reading.
"Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. The ones along the path are those who have heard; . . . the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear the word, receive it with joy; but these have no root, they believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. And as for what fell among the thorns, they are those who hear, but as they go on their way they are choked by the cares and riches and pleasures of life, and their fruit does not mature. And as for that in the good soil, they are those who, hearing the word, hold it fast in an honest and good heart, and bring forth fruit with patience" (Luke 8:11-15). Seed = Bible?
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. . . . And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us" (John 1:1, 14). Jesus = Word.
"And when they had prayed, the place in which they were gathered together was shaken; and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and spoke the word of God with boldness" (Acts 4:31). Speaking the word.
"[W]hen you received the word of God which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men but as what it really is, the word of God, which is at work in you believers" (1 Thess. 2:13). Clearly not the Bible.
"Let us therefore strive to enter that rest, that no one fall by the same sort of disobedience. For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and spirit, of joints and marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart. And before him no creature is hidden, but all are open and laid bare to the eyes of him with whom we have to do" (Heb. 4:11-13). The Bible is a book -- not living and active. "Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things unseen. For by it the men of old received divine approval. By faith we understand that the world was created by the word of God, so that what is seen was made out of things which do not appear" (Heb. 11:3). Surely you do not believe the Bible created the world?
John 6:63 “It is the spirit that gives life, while the flesh is of no avail. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and life” No Scripture mentioned here, either.
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The Church is the Church. Only in a confused mind could yo believe that Christ wanted 20,000+ versions of THE TRUTH.
These scrolls are found after being gone for 2,000 years but the MSM is sure we won't find any WMDs after 18 months.
When you can explain how a poorly educated mid-1800s rural New Yorker managed to receive a divine revelation in late 1500-early 1600 King James English
AND
managed to negate Galations 1:8 which says "But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed."
Then
I'll take you seriously.
Here's the funny thing.
If Jesus himself came to Earth this very minute and heard you two debating, he would likely say, "What is a bible?"
Also, when Jesus needed to talk(listen) to God, he went away by himself, not to a church.
God can only be found in one place. If you don't know where that is, then you haven't really found God.
Oh, but it IS another gospel. The Book of Mormon and the Bible are not compatible.
Yes, I know your "playbook". Your next move is to claim that the bible has "innacuracies" that the Book of Mormon "clears up".
I was studying with 2 Mormons and they told me that if I prayed very earnestly that God would reveal the truth to me. I asked him what would happen if I prayed very earnestly and God told me that the Bible was the truth and not the book of Mormon. The people I was studying with said that I would not have prayed hard enough.
Do yourself a favor and read Mormonism: Shadow or Reality by Gerald and Sandra Tanner.
I would agree with you. Christ never – that we know from scripture – ever commanded or suggested to anyone that he write a bible.
Yes, we are out here.
John 14:6 -- Jesus saith unto him, I am The Way, The Truth, and The Life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
John 10:27-30 -- 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave [them] me, is greater than all; and no [man] is able to pluck [them] out of my Father's hand. 30 I and [my] Father are one.
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